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Thread: How true is the Bible?

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    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default How true is the Bible?

    There are three types of people in the world that can be said to make up the world and these are those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, those that cling to the belief that it is optional, and those that just don't believe in it at all. The statement I have just made comes out of the Bible so in that it is quite inerrant. Strangely it is the most sought after book when stress is most apparent, why? Indeed it is even most sought after today by peoples who were denied it in the past so what is it about it that makes it so powerful a read?

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    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    It seems a lot of people like the Bible because of its main character, little baby Jesus. The chapter where he came back to life was a total deus ex machina cop out though.
    I also find it weird how the author changed the tone so much. The first book was really grim-dark and cool, whereas the sequel is happy-clappy and skips a few thousand years or something.




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    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    About the same as Star Trek, I would imagine... There are probably some kernels of truth in it (here and there), but not much...

    - A

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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Since I am a Christian, I 100% believe the Bible is True. However, I acknowledge my limitations in understanding the truth in the Bible and I realize that my understanding of the Bible will be imperfect and flawed. As such, since I am an Orthodox Christian I take solace in the countless blessed and enlightened theologians that had for millennia tried to understand the bible a little more and pass on to us their views. Scripture and Holy Tradition.
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Scripture is infallible in that when interpreted correctly, it won't fail to yield correct conclusions and communicate God's truth. It doesn't follow from this, however, that the interpreter can never err. Councils, bishops and even Church Fathers have erred. Ultimately, God is more interested in us having a clean conscience than believing in the "correct" doctrines, since salvation is by faith, not by belief.
    Last edited by Prodromos; June 26, 2019 at 07:51 AM.

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    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    It seems a lot of people like the Bible because of its main character, little baby Jesus. The chapter where he came back to life was a total deus ex machina cop out though.
    I also find it weird how the author changed the tone so much. The first book was really grim-dark and cool, whereas the sequel is happy-clappy and skips a few thousand years or something.
    Commisar Caligula,

    The first books called the Old Covenant can be rather dark but the endearing thing about them is that God continually predicts through the prophets the coming of Jesus as well as what would happen to Him so that the darkness you speak of can be changed in your life. What is called the New Covenant or as you call it the happy clappy times is all about the events that take place when He did come and according to the prophets did all that they had spoken of Him so His death and resurrection are essential to both books as well as the promises made by God within them. There wouldn't be any story to tell if it wasn't for His resurrection for it ordains what men and women enter into when they die. This is guaranteed by the four or five hundred who saw Him, talked with Him and even ate with Him after He was resurrected and put on record by the writers of the New Testament or Covenant.

  7. #7

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Scripture is infallible in that when interpreted correctly, it won't fail to yield correct conclusions and communicate God's truth. It doesn't follow from this, however, that the interpreter can never err. Councils, bishops and even Church Fathers have erred. Ultimately, God is more interested in us having a clean conscience than believing in the "correct" doctrines, since salvation is by faith, not by belief.
    That in itself is a doctrinal position.

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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    That in itself is a doctrinal position.
    You can (and should) believe in the correct doctrines, but it's not what actually saves you. As the Bible says, "even the demons believe."


  9. #9

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    There are three types of people in the world that can be said to make up the world and these are those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, those that cling to the belief that it is optional, and those that just don't believe in it at all. The statement I have just made comes out of the Bible so in that it is quite inerrant. Strangely it is the most sought after book when stress is most apparent, why? Indeed it is even most sought after today by peoples who were denied it in the past so what is it about it that makes it so powerful a read?
    People usually turn away from truth to feel peaceful. So, to say that the Bible is the most sought book out there doesn't really sit well.
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    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    PointOfViewGun,

    Quote,

    5 billion copies
    The second billion was attained in less than 14 years (2002 to 2015). More objectively, according to Guinness World Records, the Bible is the best-selling book of all time with over 5 billion copies sold and distributed as of this year. I don't know if that number includes Gideons Bibles. Unquote.

    Rather than what you wrote could it not be that people are seeking the truth to get peace?

  11. #11

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Quote,

    5 billion copies
    The second billion was attained in less than 14 years (2002 to 2015). More objectively, according to Guinness World Records, the Bible is the best-selling book of all time with over 5 billion copies sold and distributed as of this year. I don't know if that number includes Gideons Bibles. Unquote.

    Rather than what you wrote could it not be that people are seeking the truth to get peace?
    Not really. Human nature doesn't work that way. Ignorance is bliss. However, does that 5 billion includes the Bibles in rooms of hotels and motels?
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    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not really. Human nature doesn't work that way. Ignorance is bliss. However, does that 5 billion includes the Bibles in rooms of hotels and motels?
    PointOfViewGun,

    Could well do but nowadays they are not as easily found as in the past in these places. I believe every person joining up in WW1 and 2 were given the New Testament in Britain's forces why? Only a few weeks ago an old soldier gave me his as a gift. Sales rocketed when the forces were being assembled for the Falklands campaign. I say again that when people are faced with the unknown and the reality of the dangers they face as individuals the Bible is the only book that gives them any assurance one way or another.

  13. #13

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Could well do but nowadays they are not as easily found as in the past in these places. I believe every person joining up in WW1 and 2 were given the New Testament in Britain's forces why? Only a few weeks ago an old soldier gave me his as a gift. Sales rocketed when the forces were being assembled for the Falklands campaign. I say again that when people are faced with the unknown and the reality of the dangers they face as individuals the Bible is the only book that gives them any assurance one way or another.
    When people are indoctrinated with an ideology from childhood, sure, they would certainly seek such a book. Your example is quite interesting though. I didn't know soldiers were given Bibles when they were being shipped for war. That adds on the millions of copies of that could be found in hotels and motels in USA alone. So, what we have is that many of that 5 billion copies of Bible were not looked for by individuals. They were given out by companies or governments. Basically, your book's popularity depends on few individuals compared to the masses. It's also normal for a soldier to look into the Bible in war. Since they were given Bibles that was the only book they had at the time they were shipped.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    I also find it weird how the author changed the tone so much. The first book was really grim-dark and cool, whereas the sequel is happy-clappy and skips a few thousand years or something.
    What about the disciples ending up tortured/killed? Not very happy clappy or is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    There are three types of people in the world that can be said to make up the world and these are those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, those that cling to the belief that it is optional, and those that just don't believe in it at all. The statement I have just made comes out of the Bible so in that it is quite inerrant. Strangely it is the most sought after book when stress is most apparent, why? Indeed it is even most sought after today by peoples who were denied it in the past so what is it about it that makes it so powerful a read?


    The scripture is designed to have several layers of understanding, reaching of which depends on the ability of the reader to see the metaphors or read between the lines. Different readers will find out more or less layers of truth in it.
    However some truth layers peeled off remains for the persistent, because that which cannot be understood at a conscious level, the unconscious itself can process it, given it's repeated reading.

    Of course it's not just ability. When people already concluded, due to Ideological Indoctrination, that it is a bad read or a waste of time to read, before starting to read it, obviously they are self sabotaging anything of value that can be extracted.
    Last edited by fkizz; June 27, 2019 at 07:27 AM.
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Not to go too far into my wider beliefs on the matter, I think there is much to be derived from it that makes sense in forming a good life, but as far as how true the events claimed are and the things within are stated to be, I'd say I am extremely skeptical by and large. I think it can be a good guide, but I wouldn't even consider it a guideline for the truth of things beyond what humans can see and comprehend, as a written work compiled and processed and judged by man. There are things that likely happened to some extent and possibly great extents within I am certain, but again, I don't think it is, to use a figure of speech, the bible for what is in fact reality. But to further elaborate on this I'd have to comment on how I approach religion in general and spout on about worldview beyond the scope of what was asked.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    mikamcha,

    What does that mean?
    A figure of speech to indicate you missed the point. In this case, the post you replied to was completely tongue in cheek, and taking it seriously will not result in anything coming of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Of course it's not just ability. When people already concluded, due to Ideological Indoctrination, that it is a bad read or a waste of time to read, before starting to read it, obviously they are self sabotaging anything of value that can be extracted.
    The reverse of this is also ideological indoctrination, where people are predisposed to consider it true despite potentially weak reasons for doing so, because they simply have faith and do not register things based on their own observations but based on a more convenient picture of the world to believe, or from other influences that the bible is simply true and does not merit the same scrutiny that other works may receive when desiring to identify and verify the details.

    The pendulum swings both ways.
    Last edited by CommodusIV; June 27, 2019 at 09:11 AM.

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    I think that in order to judge how 'true' the Bible is, one would have to have a profound understanding of how contemporaries of the apostles experienced their world AND complete ignorance of over a millenium of religious scholarship. I'm doing pretty well on the latter. Not good enough on the former. Perhaps one day when I do I will actually read the whole thing.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    The reverse of this is also ideological indoctrination, where people are predisposed to consider it true despite potentially weak reasons for doing so, because they simply have faith and do not register things based on their own observations but based on a more convenient picture of the world to believe, or from other influences that the bible is simply true and does not merit the same scrutiny that other works may receive when desiring to identify and verify the details.

    The pendulum swings both ways.
    Point being, the Bible has 73 books for catholics, 66 books for protestants (KJV bible) and the average of 1,200 pages is due to massive letter shrinkening done under King James so everyone could buy a pocket Bible, rather than lack of content.

    When you see someone so surely saying that the compilation of those 73 books is so bad, without showing knowledge of whatever those 73 books talk about, then you know it's mostly bluff and they are just parroting ideological indoctrination.

    However even if someone was conditioned to see the Bible as a good thing as you say, pre-conditioned on opposite side, there is an incredibly time consuming 73 books ahead before you can make a final conclusion, which is long enough to eventually wear out your initial conditioning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Perhaps one day when I do I will actually read the whole thing.
    Well there's some humility at least. Also did you know Lucius Senneca and St. Paul exchanged letters, claiming to find each other philosophies points in common?
    Last edited by fkizz; June 27, 2019 at 02:26 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  18. #18
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Not much, considering how often the Bible contradicts himself, like, for example, in the different descriptions of Jesus' birth and genealogy, as given by the Evangelists Matthew and Luke. The Old Testament is also full of boasting and a rather sanguinary attitude, which is very common in the "literary" tradition of the Antiquity, from the inscriptions of the Assyrian monarchs to the hyperbolic account of Herodotus about Xerxes' campaign. That being said, if examined critically and, under the condition that its claims are at least partially confirmed by secondary sources, material or textual, then it could give some light to certain otherwise obscure events of the Near Eastern history.
    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Also did you know Lucius Senneca and St. Paul exchanged letters, claiming to find each other philosophies points in common?
    Their correspondence is considered to be forged, since the beginning of the modern era. It's a collection of rhetorical excercises written around the 4th and 5th centuries AD.

  19. #19
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    When people are indoctrinated with an ideology from childhood, sure, they would certainly seek such a book. Your example is quite interesting though. I didn't know soldiers were given Bibles when they were being shipped for war. That adds on the millions of copies of that could be found in hotels and motels in USA alone. So, what we have is that many of that 5 billion copies of Bible were not looked for by individuals. They were given out by companies or governments. Basically, your book's popularity depends on few individuals compared to the masses. It's also normal for a soldier to look into the Bible in war. Since they were given Bibles that was the only book they had at the time they were shipped.
    PointOfViewGun,

    I can see your reasoning if only that were true but it's not true concerning British churches because so many are up for sale due to lack of belief. If people were that indoctrinated surely there would be a demand for more buildings not less? That said, why would anyone want a Bible at all?

    Bible Sales Statistics

    Between 1815 and 1975, it was estimated that there could have been 5 billion Bibles printed. In 1995, one version of the bible, the Good News version that is copyrighted by the Bible Societies, had sold nearly 18 million copies. There’s no doubt about it – the Bible is one of the world’s best-selling books. It also proves that God’s Word is a moneymaker for today’s Christian publishers.

    The best selling and fastest growing version of the Bible in the United States is the NIV.
    82%. That’s the percentage of people who regularly read the Bible who will reach for a King James Version before any other.
    There are more than 168,000 Bibles that are sold or given to others in the United States every day.
    20 million. That’s the number of Bibles that are sold each year in the United States. That’s more than double the amount that was sold annually in the 1950s.
    The Gideon’s International distributed 59,460,000 Bibles worldwide last year. That’s more than 100 Bibles per minute.
    Zondervan, a leading Bible publisher, has more than 350 different versions of the Bible that are in print right now.
    The percentage of Americans who own at least 1 Bible, whether it was given to them or purchased: 92%. Two-thirds of owners, regardless of religious affiliation, say that the Bible holds the meaning of life.
    The average American Christian owns 9 Bibles and wants to purchase more. For this reason, the Bible is actually excluded from book bestsellers lists because it would always be on top.
    1,300 translations of the Bible are in new languages.
    There are 40 authors in the Bible.

    Clearly there is something about that book that people cannot resist, perhaps the biggest reason being where are we going at death because that is what the Bible is all about.

  20. #20

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Scripture is infallible in that when interpreted correctly, it won't fail to yield correct conclusions and communicate God's truth. It doesn't follow from this, however, that the interpreter can never err. Councils, bishops and even Church Fathers have erred. Ultimately, God is more interested in us having a clean conscience than believing in the "correct" doctrines, since salvation is by faith, not by belief.
    Christians have murdered and commited acts of genocide with a clear conscience, justified by their interpretation. You yourself have advocated the destruction of Iran with a clear conscience.

    This is the problem with christians, they all have their own interpretation and are convinced they are right.

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