Very good!Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow
Thanks again, @szikelkun! I've included your proposals into the mods, it's contains now +100 Hungarian names
Miles
Re: HUNGARY
Very good!Thanks again, @szikelkun! I've included your proposals into the mods, it's contains now +100 Hungarian names
(I'm hungarian. My english is not so good. Sorry.)
Re: SSHIP_098 April 7th 2022 - for testing
The only way I've found to beat the Byzantines is with cheese. Their units are nearly invincible so you can't take them head on with the garbage that's available. But you can beat them with mounted archer spam and sneaking around to shoot their knights/generals in the back of the head, especially when the AI has an aneurysm. run away, halt when the AI turns around, enable "fire at will" for a few seconds, get some shots off, and then turn it off and run again when they turn again to chase. or have one bait unit and chase after/next to it and kill the knights that charge. Or split the army into multiple stacks and sneak around to shoot into the back of the enemy formation. It works, but it's incredibly annoying, time consuming, and just by dumb luck will eventually fail and then you're completely screwed. and then if/when you manage to get an army together, spy-rush and capture one of their undefended settlements while they're parading around in your territory. It's incredibly dumb and exploitative. But how else are you supposed to beat invincible units/armies with peasant rabble?
Oddly enough, the HRE is one of my favorite opponents. They're much more susceptible to hit and run tactics, which is great for an army based on mounted archers with infantry support. (which makes things that much worse when all of a sudden you lose access to them for no apparent reason) Probably the only nation worse than Byzantines that I've managed to fight is Venice, with their long range mounted skirmishers and impossibly fast cav units.
I might have to do that. Please if at all possible fix the bugs that make militarily weak factions nigh unplayable.
1: sallying out results in your camp being sacked, which means any time you sally has the potential to cost an absurd amount of money.
2: if the AI has two or more stacks besieging, you can't sally out, because if you do and don't completely defeat the armies, you lose the battle and the settlement.
3: if the AI has two or more stacks besieging and assaults, the support stacks just sit and do nothing, forcing you to sally out and frequently die to cav units where otherwise you'd have won due to wiping out the enemy's infantry and turning back the assault.
Civis
Re: SSHIP_098 April 7th 2022 - for testing
I have the same problem with Poland as well-and as long as I don't have the Strzelcy-but I think it's not so much in the Slavic or Magyar factions as it is that Byzantium is incredibly OP: if you get the battle ground wrong it ends in a massacre.
Civis
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
I remember someone already said this maybe but it would be nice to rearrange the Hungary area:
- Sacrifice "the city of Kings" Székesfehérvár by moving it to the right bank and turn it into Esztergom ( so it ends up on the right bank of the Danube ); maybe even a script changing its name to Buda in 1256.... don't know the turn number );
- move the current Esztergom to the Kosice area( Villa Kassa in the Middle Ages ).
It would turn out to be geographically more correct.
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
I was just thinking, the major problems are Esztergom, Varad, and Transylvania. Esztergom, the capital, has 7 connections - 4 of which are not controlled by the player at the start. It's under constant threat. The Esztergom-Halychyna one is the biggest problem, because it means you can get attacked out of the blue from 3 days' march away. Varad, the "castle" is completely useless because it controls access to absolutely nothing. e.g. Western Bulgaria connects to Transylvania via a sliver of land that you can't even walk through, which means anyone (Byzantines) in Western Bulgaria can/will bypass the castle and go for Transylvania anyway, regardless of whether they control Wallachia. If anything, Varad should connect to Wallachia, Western Bulgaria, and Halychyna, replacing the connections with Esztergom and Transylvania.
That's assuming the settlements aren't moved around, or better yet, another one added.
Civis
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
This reasoning is correct, but one would also have to consider some exogenous variables: Byzantium is extremely OP and with anti-historical stability, especially the first part when it starts slaughtering half the world in the first few turns.
In my cases I noticed besides Byzantium that Poland most caused me problems by passing precisely where I assumed the city moved (perhaps to a castle); I would reverse Varad and Gyulafehérvár as I did in the game. Halych has always endured a lot as an independent faction, strange because Kiev is also far too strong ( politically it should be torn apart worse than Byzantium )
Obviously these are all conjectures hardly applicable to the game; I always attacked Olomuc to secure a castle from the west despite always finding understanding with HRI ( even the AI ). I will repeat this ad nauseam as Cato the Elder, but the boon is Byzantium in the area.
However considering the Danube region it is obvious it is so open.
History and gameplay!
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
Yeah, the problem with Byzantium is that in 1132 it is at the peak of its power. And the king is going strong. One can make them weaker, perhaps with a Bulgarian uprising?
On the other issue: it's strange what you're saying about Venice. Long range mounted skirmishers and fast cav? Which one?
Yeah, and the problem with Poland is with historicity - the crossbows were available much later, and mounted would be effectivelly employed only in 15th century...
The issue is, a castle in the SSHIP is not to control / block anything, but to signify wide range of recruitment.
Yeah, I'd actually prefer to have a third Rus faction in the game - Halych-Volodymyr Principality. And Kiev not controlling Zalesye at the beginning, or rather - having Zalesye as a faction instead of Kiev.
History and gameplay!
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
Interestingly, there're still Hungarian horse archers as late as in 1322 - at Muhldorf. However, I think in the SSHIP contexts, these should be Cumans, not the initial Magyar Cavalry.
Friedrich der Schöne kam am 24. September in Mühldorf an. Leopold I. von Österreich, Friedrichs Bruder, sollte von Schwaben her kommend zu den Habsburger Truppen stoßen, was ihm aber nicht gelang. Er befand sich am 25. September noch am Lech, also im günstigsten Falle vier bis fünf Tagesmärsche von Mühldorf entfernt. Die in Mühldorf verfügbare Streitmacht bestand aus 1400 Helmen, also schwer bewaffneten Reitern, 5000 Ungarn und Heiden, womit Kumanen gemeint sind, und vielen Kriegern zu Fuß. Herzog Leopold hätte über 1200 Helme verfügt, befand sich zum Zeitpunkt der Schlacht aber noch bei Fürstenfeld nahe München
History and gameplay!
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
I'm considering moving capital of Moldavia from Iassi to Suceava, or even to Siret. Well, it's based on Wikipedia, but seems well-grounded:
After first residing in Baia, Bogdan moved Moldavia's seat to Siret (it was to remain there until Petru II Mușat moved it to Suceava; it was finally moved to Iași under Alexandru Lăpușneanu - in 1565).
{Iasi}Siret
{IasiGerman}Sedschopff
{IasiHungarian}Szűcsvár
{IasiSlavic}Sucava
{IasiTurkish}Iasi
Code:if I_EventCounter faction_turn_islam == 1 ; Muslim factions: Iasi change_settlement_name Iasi IasiTurkish if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi < 1 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE_MOVE end_if if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi > 1 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE_MOVE end_if set_counter current_name_Iasi 1 end_if if I_EventCounter faction_turn_catholic == 1 ; Catholic factions: Sedschopff and not I_EventCounter faction_turn_poland == 1 and not I_EventCounter faction_turn_hungary == 1 change_settlement_name Iasi IasiGerman if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi < 2 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE_MOVE end_if if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi > 2 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE end_if set_counter current_name_Iasi 2 end_if if I_EventCounter faction_turn_hungary == 1 ; Hungary: Szűcsvár change_settlement_name Iasi IasiHungarian if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi < 2 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE_MOVE end_if if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi > 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi < 3 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE end_if if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi > 3 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE end_if set_counter current_name_Iasi 3 end_if if I_EventCounter faction_turn_poland == 1 ; Poland: Sucava change_settlement_name Iasi IasiSlavic if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi < 2 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE_MOVE end_if if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi > 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi < 4 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE end_if set_counter current_name_Iasi 4 end_if if I_EventCounter faction_turn_orthodox == 1 ; Orthodox: Sucava change_settlement_name Iasi IasiSlavic if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi < 2 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE_MOVE end_if if I_EventCounter is_the_player == 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi > 1 and I_CompareCounter current_name_Iasi < 4 historic_event SETTLEMENT_NAME_CHANGE end_if set_counter current_name_Iasi 4 end_if
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 08, 2022 at 02:51 PM.
Miles
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
Hello. I hope it will not sound condescending or something but I have a question. Since mod is named hitorical improvement project, is there any plan to make Kingdom of Hungary appear less like "magyar kingdom"? It is disheartening to see every game/mod depict feudal central european kingdom as some quasi "nomadic" kingdom. Reality was much more nuanced. Where are Slovaks and other slavic people who played crucial role in its existence from very beginning?
Contemporary historiography argues that Great Moravia was "institutional model/template" (dunno how to translate) not only for Czech and Polish kingdoms but for Hungary as well. The similarities are simply too numerours to be random. For example "serf settlements" have their analogies in polish and bohemian lands but none in steppe societies. Administrative organization, ecclessiastical organization, economy, judicial system and much more has been taken over from settled slavic people who had "knowhow/experience" in this way of life. One of most important noble families that supported Stephen I. against Koppány – Poznan and Hunt (as well as many others) were of slovak (or slavic, if it offends anyone) origin. Many local nobles that remained in power after fall of Moravia helped create Hungarian kingdom. Part of Hungarian kingdom, which is roughly similar to present day Slovakia was known as Nitra principality since 9th century. Even though it was conquered and became part of Great Moravia and later hungarian kingdom, it retained some degree of autonomy. After it became part of Hungarian kingdom, it was known as Ducatus or tercia pars regni, etc. Here, heirs to the trone ruled semi-independently to gain knowledge and prepare for "real" rule of entire kingdom. This quasi autonomous part of kingdom ceased to exist in the beginning of 12th century because of dynastiec disputes. It indirectly proves that it was important and quite developed part of kingdom.
Strong slavic influence is obvious in one of Nitra "prince?/duke?" Michal. His sons had slavic names – Ladislav and Vasil. Ladislav was also duke in principality in Nitra and he had wife – daughter of Vladimir I. of Kiev. His sons was named Domoslav. When Gejza envied rising power of his brother Michal and had him remove from Nitra, where did his sons Ladislav and Vasil go? They run to Poland. When polish king Boleslav seized Nitra principality, he reinstalled Vladislav back as ruler. And there are many many more example of close ties to slavic neigbhours as well as slavic people and nobles in Hungary. However, that is not represented in game in any possible way. What is more, there are some questionable decisions like using magyar language when official language in kingdom was latin. It is agreed that magyar language was common on kings court but so were slavic and german languages. How appropriate is quote of Stephen I. to his son Emerich: "After all, the kingdom of only one language and only one custom is weak and fragile."
Now again, I am sorry if my message might sound rude or aggressive. I am trying not to be. I am merely asking if there is any intention to make this faction more nuanced. Kingdom of Hungary was more like symbiosis between two people – sedentary local Slavs and nomadic Magyars later enriched by other ethnicities rather than what is depicted in games and entertainment.
Last edited by Majkl; November 24, 2022 at 05:59 AM.
Domesticus
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
Your message is not aggressive. Your description of what these lands must have been like in the twelfth century strikes me as quite relevant.
SSHIP is a transformation of the Stainless Steel mod that was not at all historically believable in many ways. The Hungarian faction should probably be reviewed, like many others. There is a topic for each faction where everyone can put this knowledge to help us.
We do this work out of passion and little by little we hope to achieve better historical credibility.
History and gameplay!
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
I fully agree. It is to be done at some point, including a kind of unique / regional building. But I don't know when I'd have interest in this one, for now, as you may notice in the other threads, I'm more interested in Maghrib and Africa, doing stuff there.
Miles
Re: SSHIP - General Discussion
I understand. Many times I wanted to learn to mod myself (at least text files lol) because asking someone else to do this for sake of historicity or any other reason seems arrogant to me. However I am complete tool in matters of IT. Thank you for aour answers though.
Miles
Re: HUNGARY
Slovaks after fall of Great Moravia and their participation in creation of Kingdom of Hungary (part 1)
Disclaimer: This is series of short "blogs" whose purpose is to enrich modders knowledge about rich and nuanced history of Kingdom of Hungary in order to better depict it in game. It is written from point of view of Slovak historiograhy. If it sound like nationalistic rumbling, I am sorry but that is not purpose nor goal of this texts, merely my inability to express myself properly and translate otherwise scientific papers into simple and understandable english text.
I am using term Slovak for slavic population on northern territory of kingdom simply because Slovaks are direct descendants of those people. They themselves called Slovenin, Sloveni in plural, in that time. However, in order not to confuse Slovak ancestors with Slovene people in Slovenia, neither with slavic people in general I use term Slovak. The terminology changed around 14th/15th century under Prague influence; Slovenin > Slovak, see also Polanin > Poliak, Slezan > Slezak, Rusin > Rusnak. This is merely evolution of language. Ancestors of Slovak people were already self determined in 10th century and saw themselves as distinct from Czech, Polish or Magyar people of that time. (more on that in future "blogs")
Between Great Moravia and Kingdom of Hungary
Slavic character of lands in question did not cease to exist after fall of Great Moravia. However, lands on which it remained has shrinked. Area behind Morava river was annexed by Bavaria and forming Czech state and its population has accepted German or Czech identity in next few centuries. Lands south of Danube river has been seized by Magyars, which in proccess of aculturazitation to central european conditions assimilated local slavic population. Slovaks (their ancestors, back then called themselves Sloveni) remained dominant ethnic group north of Danube river and Matra mountains. Great changes happened in greater slavic world as well, that is, disintegration of slavic language unity. This slow process begun somewhere around 5th century and reached its final stage in half of 10th century, resulting in formation of distinct slavic languages including Slovak. Along this, process of ethnogenesis taken its course. Since end of 10th century we can talk about Slovaks even though as we already mentioned, they called themselves Sloveni until 14th century.
Historical records from period after fall of Great Moravia are rare. It is obvious, that after dissolution of central power in Great Moravia, numerous local duchies emerged on its ruins, mostly in mountain valleys, which offered good protection. Magyars, which came into Crpathian basin in 896, did not annex entire area at once but step by step. Reason for their influx into Danubian basin, which magyar historians call „honfoglalás“ (takeover of homeland) was terrible defeat of their forces by Bulgarians and Pechenegs that forced them to leave areas north of Black sea. Magyars, differed greatly from local european (slavic/slovak) population. They belonged to ugro-finnic language group with strong influence of turkic languages and lived nomadic way of life. After fall of Great Moravia they kept raiding central and western Europe for few more decades. In 955 they were defeated at river Lech by alliance of German and Czech armies led by Oto I. It was one of the greatest defeats which terribly wekened Magyar tribe. This defeat is considered to be reason for Magyars to begin slow process of transition into sedentary way of life. This was accompanied by accepting catholic religion. Since then, Magyars became everlasting neighbour of Slovaks for next thousand of years.
Ever since Industriae tuae has been issued by pope to Svätopluk, lands around middle Danube were papal fief, which many of successor states tried to acquire. Czech Přemyslovid dynasty as well as polish Piast dynasty aspired to acquire legacy of Great Moravia. Among those who made an effort to acquire right of succession was house of Arpád, that seized Pannonia and Nitra principality. Part of Great Moravian elite was aware of political situation and began to cooperate with magyar ruling elite. This cooperation, first forced, later voluntarily, was positive for both sides. Despite terrible defeat at Lech river Magyars still commanded considerable military force and local Slovak nobles disposed experience (knowhow?/knowledge) in state administration and feudal economy. This cooperation/symbiosis – which displayed itself in existence of Belobrdo culture – resulted in creation of Hungarian kingdom at the beginning of 11th century.
During building of Hungarian kingdom, Magyar duces followed older Great Moravian tradition, mostly territorial administrative organization, ecclesiastical organization and also used economical potential of local Slovak population. One of most outspoken proof is fact, that magyar language has taken over slavic vocabulary for those social phenomenas, that did not exist in nomadic society. It is especially obvious in economical, judicial, ecclesiastical sphere of life. (Magyar linguists István Kniesza concluded, that around 1500 to 2000 initally slavic words have been incorporated into magyar language, which is most numerous of all; 750 of those of Slovak origin) Kingdom of Hungary has been created as multinational state with dominant position of Magyar elite but with important cooperation of local nobility from previous period. Slovaks tillted lands there, build fortified settlements (gorod), established crafting settlements and markets, provided functioning state, judicial and ecclesiastical institutions that has became basis of Hungarian kingdom.
Creation of Hungarian kingdom is related to dynasty of Arpád who derived their origin from dux Arpád and who led magyar tribes into their central european „homeland“. Descendants of Arpád greatly improved their position after disastrous defeat at Lech river in 955, where many of magyar leaders died in battle. During rule of Gejza in second half on 10th century magyar experienced evolution that led to integration and establishment of state. Stefan I. is considered a founder of kinfdom, later declared a saint, who together with its father Gejza accepted christianity and imposed it into magyar society. Tactful diplomacy led pope Silvester II. that Stefan I. is the one, who will stabilise affairs in Carpathian basin. In result he was „awarded“ a crown of first king of Kingdom of Hungary. However, in first years of his rule, he only had power over territory similar to present day Hungary. Transylvania was ruled by dux Ďula (Gyula?) and Nitra principality was seized by polish king Boleslaw the Brave.
The way to acquire power was not easy for young king. His father Gejza had his own brother Michal killed, so he can name his son Stefan dux of Nitra principality and his successor. It meant, that old way of succession has been broken. In past, oldest member of house was the one to be next in line, not oldest son of already reigning dux. Not all members of Arpád family has accepted this new custom. After Stefan ascension to throne in 997, his uncle Kopán (Kopányi) revolted against young king in order to seize the throne. This were critical times for young Stefan. In desperate times it was nobles of Slovak origin Hunt and Poznan who together with his knight Vencelin stood in his defense and defeated his uncle Kopán. Chronicles mentioned that main fighting force was composed of Nitra principality/Nitrenses. Kopán was defeated, imprisoned and then quartered. Štefan was aware of diverse ethnic composition of his kingdom. He, or his advisors believed, that Kingdom of Hungary will only survive i fit will be tolerant of different ethnic groups living there. In work Mravné ponaučenia kráľa Štefana... (Moral lessons of Stephen I. ...) he encouraged his son and heir Emeric to tolerate language and customs of other ethnicities in kingdom, „[...] because kingdom of one language and one custom is weak and fragile“. These words expressed Štefan’s desire of tolerant kingdom that lasted basically until 18th century. Only then strong magyarization began to take a place. Until that period of time, Slovaks as well as Germans, Croats, Slovenes, Romanians and Rusyns lived together in one kingdom generally without much issues. All these people built and defended this kingdom, although in the beginning it was mostly Magyars and Slovaks.
Territory of modern Slovakia is slightly bigger than territory of Nitra principality, often caled as ducatus or tercia pars regni. After coronation of Štefan I., polish king Boleslaw Brave annexed ducatus and held it until 1018 or 1029. Reason for this was most probably Ladislav and Vasil (Vasul), sons of murdered dux of Nitra Michal. During this period, Ladislav became dux of Nitra principality. After death of boleslaw, Štefan once seized Nitra principality and it became part of Hungarian kingdom. Vasil has been blinded and imprisoned on order of Štefan, while Ladislav was already dead. Ducatus was not officially autonomous but it nevertheless acted as quasi semi-independent part of kingdom where young heirs to the throne ruled in order to acquire experience in leadership. After removing of Vasul, Štefan designated his son Emeric as dux of Nitra principality. Sons of Ladislav and Vasul run away to exile. One of Ladislav sons – Domoslav seized Nitra principality for a short period of time after Štefan I. death. Later, dynastic dysputes erupted in kingdom. Nitra principality or ducatus was lasted until circa 1110 when it was removed by king Koloman due to fact, that whoever ruled Nitra often had large political power and that led to dynastic disputes.
Miles
Re: HUNGARY
Slovaks after fall of Great Moravia and their participation in creation of Kingdom of Hungary (part 2)
Disclaimer: This is series of short "blogs" whose purpose is to enrich modders knowledge about rich and nuanced history of Kingdom of Hungary in order to better depict it in game. It is written from point of view of Slovak historiography. If it sound like nationalistic rumbling, I am sorry but that is not purpose nor goal of this texts, merely my inability to express myself properly and translate otherwise scientific papers into somple and understandable english text.
Noble houses of local origin – Hunt and Poznan
After the fall of Great Moravia, which is usually dated to year 906/7, its eastern part known as Nitra principality slowly became part of Arpád domain and later Kingdom of Hungary in a political sense. However, people living there before – ancestors of Slovaks – did not became extinct, neither were they enslaved, killed or exiled. At least not majority of them. They lived there same as before and biggest change in their life was coming of new ruling elite. This change of ruling elite was not absolute either. Local Slovak nobles partially remained in power. At least those, who cooperated with new Arpád dynasty. These nobles not only did not perish but they played active and important role in creating Hungarian kingdom.
As we already mentioned, historians assume that Great Moravia ceased to exist as a political structure somewhere inbetween 905 – 907. Centralized power in hands of one ruler disappeared, however legacy of Great Moravia remained in form of territorial administration, economical organization, cultural and ecclesiastical traditions. We will talk about those in next blogs. Today, we will focus our attention on local nobility and its participation in creation of Rex Hungarorum.
Among most famous and most important lesser duces at the end of 10th century were those of house Hunt (Gunt; in 12th century g was changed to h in slavic languages) and Poznan. They belonged to those nobles that supported Arpád house as ascending ruling dynasty in forming kingdom. Oldest mention of them comes from 1002 in charter (founding record?) of Saint Martin abbey in Pannonian mountain (Pannonhalm).
Hungarian chroniclers considered their origin to be of german descend. Šimon of Kéza thought of them as brothers from Svabia, who on their road to Holy lands remained in Gejza archduchy. Contemporary historians have different interpretation of their origin. Hunt and Poznan were not brothers, neither of german origin. Poznan is not derivation of german Patzmann as it was interpreted in past. Its origin is in slavic languages and is shorter variation of name „poznaný“ (known one/famous). Name Hunt is recorded as Cuntius, which is corrupted version of name Guntius. Its slavic roots is apparent in „nosovka“ (dunno how to translate it, it is specific order of syllables in slavic words before 12th century that causes specific sound, difficult to pronounce for nonslavic person). Another proof of slavicity of those names is repeated use of slavic names in families for generation, all the way to 14th century, when hungarian (slovak, hungarian, german, croatian...) nobles begin to adopt christian names. This tradition suggests strong cult of ancestors and relative development of nobility that were aware of their origin.
Hunt and Poznan were ancient houses, whose origin could possibly trace back to Great Moravia. Clear sign of that would be extensive land ownership by which they were distinguished at the end of 10th century. Most of their lands lied north of Danube, in areas of Hont (comitatus which was named after its owner, Hunt), Malohont, Novohrad and Nitra. These lands played crucial role in pagan uprising of (dux) Kopányi in year 997. Large army of Stephen assembled in Bíňa where – according to chronicles – Hunt and Poznan „girded Stephen with a sword“ (again, no idea how to translate it properly). At the same time they were appointed as Stephen personal guards, an act that highlights their important position.
Both houses Hunt and Poznan remained important in next centuries. First (11th) century of existence of Hungarian kingdom, it was house of Hunt which achieved greater position. It is apparent from historical records, thanks to which we know, that Lampert II., grandson of Hunt has married sister of hungarian king Ladislav I. He was župan (lat. comes) and founder of Bzovík monastery. Lampert quickly rose to power. However, he later died together with his son during dynastic dyspute, where he favoured Boris, stepson of king Koloman, that tried to seize hungarian throne from Belo II. Their support of Boris has became their death sentence, they were killed near Slaná river (current Slovak/Hungarian border) in 1132. This alone proves that Hunt and their descendants were influental families with ties to royal court.
More available is family line of Poznan. It was Poznan descendants who were appointed župans (comes) of Nitra county from 1029 to 1111, namely Bukven, his sons Una and later Bača (Bacsa) and then their son Mojžiš (Moses). Una’s son and Moses’s cousin Kozma was important figure in royal court as well. Later both houses – Hunt and Poznan joined together. It is probable that their descendants were appointed to Nitra comitatus as župans in 12th and 13th century as well, based on same repeated names of people appointed. Tomáš was demonstrably descendant of Hunt-Poznan house and was župan in first quarter of 13th century. He distinguished himself in military campaign in Bulgaria as well as Holy Roman Empire where he supported Přemysl Otakar I. against german cisar. His son Alexander was close confidant (perhaps there is better term) of king Onderj II. Together with his brother Sebeš (Sebeslav) acquired extensive lands in western Slovakia and Moravian borderlands and their brother Bukven married stepsister of king Ondrej II., Elisabeth. Later, in years 1241, Alexander sons Kozma and Achilles and their brother of unknown name, together with their uncle Sebeš participated in Battle of Mohi against Mongols. There is more known about their whereabouts during this period but that is beyond our scope.
There were more houses, that achieved high positions and took part in royal court. One of them is family of Ludanickovci, that owned lands north of Nitra. Family tradition derives their origin from Turiec region in northern Slovakia, however it is impossible to determine their exact origin for now. This is another house whose family names were almost exclusively slavic, such as Sebeslav, Bohumir, Vítko, Synko. Seat of their family in 11th century was village of Ludanice. There was already in 11th century stone romanesque church and small wooden castle. Most of their owndership was not documented by records, meaning it must have been much older ownership, known as hereditarium. In 13th century this house has split into 8 distinct branches. Hunt and Poznan houses too split into numerous lesser houses who played important role in political life of country.
Apart from mentioned, there were other important local noble houses that has played role in royal court, in local governemnt, as heads of bishophorics, etc. Among other Diviackovci, whose family lands lied north of Nitra and in Turiec, house Bogat-Radvaň, that owned lands in eastern Slovakia and Miškovci, whose lands lied in Gemer comitatus. They are considered of Slovak origin by most historians (at least in Slovakia, magyar historians rarely reply to studies of their slovak collagues in hungarian historical magazines).
This is just a brief excursion through history of important hungarian nobility whos origin can be possibly traced to local Slovak/Slavic families from period between 10th to 12th centuries. There are historical studies that goes deeper in arguing their slavicity, however my skills in translating these texts are insufficient and it is very time consuming. Hopefully, you will forgive my inability to translate some part properly and leaving some names in contemporary slovak form. It is way easier for me to do it this way.
Miles
Re: HUNGARY
Slovaks after fall of Great Moravia and their participation in creation of Hungarian kingdom (part 3)
Coexistence of Slovak (or rather slavic in this context) and Magyar people
Long process of accepting sedentary way of life in magyar society has begun in second half of 10th century. After their defeat at Lech river in 955, raids into territory of western Europe became ever more problematic and Carpathian basin was not large enough and suitable for nomadic way of life. Only solution in this precarious situation was in adaptation to settled way of life. Agriculture has become bridge that introduced Magyars into settled european civilization. This process saved Magyars from fate that was typical of nomadic societies, that is, assimilation in settled societies.
Adopting new way of life resulted into situation in which Magyars no longer distanced themselves from settled slavic population. Quite the contrary, cooperation was born. It did manifest in fact, that Magyars begun to establish settlements in close proximity of their slavic neighbours, and in many cases both settlements, slavic and magyar merged together over time. In contrast to first half of 10th century when it was easy to distinguish Slavic an Magyar ethnicity of archeological sites, common cemeteries from later periods shows little to no difference. Jewelry, working tools, militaries, offerings and other stuff found in graves were characterized by same semblence. Archaeological sites with common slavic-magyar characteristics has been named as Belobrdo culture (named after site Belo brdo in Croatia). This culture has been found in large area from Potisie (lands around Tisza river), Pannonia, southwest Slovakia, Slavonia and partially in Corutania and Serbia. Archeologists then confirmed „testimony“ of Rus chronicler Nestor that stated, that Magyars in Hungary do not live separately but together with Slavs.
Belobrdo culture is first proof that close relations and assimilation of slavic and magyar population could not exist without social and cultural correlations. They were natural manifestation of mutual encounter and influence of two different cultural models. Precondition for this to happen was acculturation of Magyar non-fighting part of society with conquered slavic people. And of course, mutual language communication. It is important to realize, that in such conditions, there were two different societies that entered mutual interaction. On one side there was older settled slavic population, which after defeat of Great Moravia has lost its political hegemony and population exceptionality. Nevertheless, economical, social and ecclesiastical life has not been destroyed. On the other side there was Magyar society which was looking for new „living place“ but also way out of terrible economical situation by adopting new way of settled life. Therefore, Magyars were much more interested in accepting new cultural influence than sedentary population. Historical and linguistic research shows that this acculturation has began already in Levédia and Etelköz (their homeland in Volga and Black sea region before settling in Carpathian basin). It is most obvious in their language.
Hungarian linguist István Kniesza concluded that most common language loans come from turkic (6,5 %), german (7,3%) and slavic (12,4%) vocabulary. Number of loans from slavic languages is counted between 1500 to 2000 (that is in conservative guess of István Kniesza). Majority of them has become part of Magyar language in period from 10th to 12th century. that is, in time when they adapted to central European culture. It is no surprise, that most of this loans come from their immediate slavic neighbours. Remarkable is not only large number of words taken from slavic languages but also extensive thematic scale.
For the purpose of game I will only mention some from social organization:
kráľ > király (king); cisár > császár (caesar, tsar); vojvoda > vajda (duke); knieža > kenéz (dux); sluha > szolga (servant); rab > rab (slave); zbeh > izbeg (deserter); sedliak > paraszt (from older prostý; villager); župy > megye (from older mädza, boundary); ispán > špán, župan (lat. comes); temnica > tömölcz (prison, dungeon); poriadok > rend (from older red; order); pečať > pecsét (seal); peniaz > pénz (money, currency, coin), slobodný > szabád (freeman); vladár > Aladár (ruler); víťaz > vitéz (knight/mounted warrior); bojovník > bajnok (warrior), etc. There is also numerous words from agriculture, architecture and living, crafts, family life, household, religion, nature/countrylife, fauna and flora.
Proces of acculturation and accepting sedentary life was facilitated by Magyar relations with slavic, turkic and bulgar cultures already before their coming into Carpathian basin. Historians assume that they adopted hook plowing, cultivation of cereals, peas and hemps and harvesting a grains. They also adopted and brought some building forms such as improved clay ovens.
Coexistence of Slavic and Magyar societies brought numerous interaction not only in economical/agricultural life but in creation of Hungarian kingdom. Arpád dynasty was inspired by Frankish and Slavic templates. Slovak historians emphasize, that Hungarian kingdom was magyar-slovak state whos seeds were formed in area of Pannonia and Nitra principality. They aregue that of all the area of former Great Moravian territory that became part of Kingdom of Hunagry, most important and developed centers stood in this area – Pannonia and Nitra principality. Therefore Arpád dynasty followed older tradition during building of state, administrative and ecclesiastical organization. This has been proven not only by linguistic research but also by historical records and archaeology. Most convincing proof remains to be continutiy of ecclesiastical organization (Nitra and Ostrihom/Esztergom) and continuity of system of castles as seats of comitatus/župa (Nitra, Bratislava, Tekov, Zemplín). Influence of Great Moravia has manifested itself on architecture of religious buildings, that followed older templates. Many of them were built on places of previous Great Moravian churches (Nitra, Bratislava). Former importance of Nitra has manifested mostly in existence of Nitra principality/ducatus, that existed till beginning of 12th century and its rule was reserved to heirs of ruling dynasty.
Miles
Re: HUNGARY
Slovaks after fall of Great Moravia and their participation in creation of Hungarian Kingdom (part 4)
Rare mentions of northern parts of Hungarian kingdom as Slovak lands
Even though the area of settlement of Slovak people and their ancestors has been inhabited from at least 6th century, considering the history of statebuilding process, name of this land – „Slovensko“ (Slovakia) – has only been used unofficially and rarely. In this context we can speak about „Slovensko“ only in ethno-geographical sense derived from fact that it was inhabited by Slovaks and their ancestors who appeared in history under different names – Slavi, Sclavi, Sloveni, Slováci.
Geographical name of Slovensko appears in historical records already in first millenium, hoewever intepretation of this term is often complicated. Slavi/Sclavi could be translated – depending on the context – as land of Slavs in wider sense or as land of Slovaks in narrow sense. Same problem appears with terms terra Slavorum, terra Sclavorum, partes Slavorum, regnum Slavorum and also in case of Slavonia, Sclavinia, Sclavonia which first appear in 11th century. Depending on the context in which these words were used, they can be translated as Slovakia, Slovenia or slavic lands in general. For example, lands between Drava and Sava river were incroporated into Hungarian kingdom in 12th century. It has kept its selfgovernemnt and diet. Magyars called it Tót ország. Same terminology, however unofficial, was used in case of area of modern day Slovakia in 17th and 18th century.
First mentions of "slavic lands" can be found at the beginning of 9th century. In this time, this term is applied to wider geographical area inhabited by Slavs and Avars. Famous charter of King Charles the Great from 805 adjusts trade with weapons „in partibus Sclavorum et Avarorum“. Borders of these slavic and Avar countries run from Saxony to Regensburg. Geographic term Slavonia is used by pope Ján VIII in 873, when he calls croatian duke Mutimír duke of Slavonia. Svätopluk of (Great) Moravia is called dux de Maravna or glorious comes de Maravna. Koceľ (son of Pribina; Pribina was first known ruler of Nitra principality) is called Comes Sclavorum and pope Štephen V. calls Svätopluk rex Sclavorum. Most of these terms are used in wider sense but in some cases, such as Koceľ’s, it is arguably used in relation to lands inhabited by Slovaks.
Arrival of tribal organization of nomadic clans – of which only one was called Meder (Magyar) – at the end of 9th century interrupted previous statebuilding development in this area but native population was not decimated neither subjugated in way it was interpreted in past. It is obvious from complaint of Slazburg’s arcbishop to pope Ján IX., who describe alliance between Slavs and Magyars and complain that they appropriated some of their customs.
Polish-Hungarian chronicle speaks about present day Slovakia as Sclavonia, in some places even goes so far as identify Sclavorum with entire Kingdom of Hungary (Venit in terram suam Sclavoniam, quam attavus suus Ungariam appelavit). Chronicle mentions numerous times, that Nitra principality (ducatus), which is roughly identical to modern day Slovakia, is at the same time called Sclavonia. Emeric, son of first hungarian king Stephen I. was called dux of Slovakia (dux Sclavoniae). Ever since the beginning of 12th century, when Nitra principality was abolished, term Sclavonia is mostly used for lands of Croatia and Slovenia, roughly around Dráva and Sáva rivers but it continues to be used to describe Slovakia in some cases as well.
Abolishment of Nitra principality is obscured by lack of historical records, with few exception. There is, however, mention in Zobor charter from 1113. It appears king Koloman (from 1096) had disputes with his brother Almos, who was in charge of Nitra and Biharsko. Koloman was often called king of Pannonia, which implies that his political power was restricted south of Danube river. Koloman’s desire to seize power of entire kingdom, including Nitra principality led to civil war/disputes that ended in 1107. Almos, as sign of reconciliation, took part in pilgrimage to Holy Lands. In his absence, Koloman seized Nitra. After his return, Álmoš together with german kaiser Henrich V. and bohemian duke Svätopluk attacked Koloman however this initiative has failed after death of Svätopluk. Later, Koloman had Álmoš and his son Belo blinded so they can not endanger his position on throne. This act led to integration of entire hungarian kingdom and abolishment of Nitra principality, though there was uprising shortly after. An uprising in which „Atha dux Moravaniensium“ (Atha prince of Moravians) tried to reestablish formal independency of Nitra principality. He was not successful. However, there is one more conclusion to make. From the context of historical record that mentions this „dux Moravaniensium“ it is obvious that people of this uprising could not be ancestors of Moravians from contemporary Czech republic, but Slovak ancestors from western and central Slovakia. It seems, that Great Moravian identity survived more than 2 centuries after its fall. Indeed, Anonymus in his Gesta Hungarorum mentions legends, songs and folktales of peasants and itinerant singers, in which, people apparently disparaged „house of Magyars“. It seems that Gesta Hungarorum, literary work of chronicler "Anonymous" was quasi reaction to this slander and abolishment of Nitra principality which apparently has not positive reception among people. Gesta Hungarorum, after all, is considered by many historians to be politically motivated work whose goal was to celebrate hungarian kings and to confirm their claim to seize and execute power in areas not settled by Magyars, among others Nitra principality. Simply put, it was to support centralization of power in kingdom into hands of ruling house.
Even after abolishment of Nitra principality one can find rare mentions of northern Hungarian territory to be called „Slovak land“. German teologian and humanist Jacob Ziegler travelled through central Europe and in one of his works mentions that there are roads from Moravia to Silesia, to Poland and „to Slovakia (in Sclavoniam) which is in Carpathian mountains in Hungarian kingdom“. In year 1437 one captain Bardo writes in his work, that he travels from Bratislava to Slovakia (versus Sclavoniam). Since he never visited Slovenia and worked as mining captain in central Slovakia, it is safe to assume that this Sclavonia meant area of present day Slovakia. At the beginning of 15th century Stibor de Beckov, initally polish nobleman who moved and lived resft of his life in present day Slovakia is mentiond as lord of Vág river and Tatra mountains. Váh is longest Slovak river and Tatra mountains highest mountains in Slovakia and Carpathians at all. His son is mentioned in chronicle of Ulrich von Richental as lord of Slovak lands (Windische landen) between Moravia and Poland, on river Váh. Same chronicle mentions another noblemen from Levice (town in southern Slovakia) as noble from Slovakia (usser Windenlanden). There is also mention of bishop Ján de Kaniža. According to chronicle, his bishophoric and bishops reside in Slovak lands (Windischen landen). Again, to the bishophoric of Ostrihom belonged areas of entire Nitra principality and some lands south of Danube river. Same chronicle mentions travels of king Sigismund through Slovakia. Since 15th century onward, mentions of northern Hungary in form Sclavonia, Sclavorum, Windenland, Windischen lands, Slovenská zem, etc. continue to be even more popular.
In medieval period the slavic (and Slovak) presence in Kingdom of Hungary was so strong, that some foreign chronicles and travelers consider Kingdom of Hungary to be among slavic countries. I can not find concrete evidence (books where I got it from) right now so perhaps I will edit this post later or inclue it in another post. Author of chronicle mentioned, that Kingdom of hungary could be counted among slavic kingdoms since it is no different in language or customs to its slavic neighbours. As late as 18th century Diderot encyclopedy mentions that hungarian language is dialect of slavic and is close to Czech, Polish and Russian languages.
It is obvious that northern part of Hungarian kingdom was often called Sclavonia, Sclavorum, Windenland, etc., term which often had meaning of slavic, but in numerous cases it had narrow meaning signifying Slovak lands. Disctinction can only be deduced from context in which this term was used. It is also indirect proof that Slovak population has taken part in political and economical life of this part of kingdom in large scale.
Re: Screenshots / Empires' Maps Thread
Turn 195 loss as Hungary VH/VH. This is the only Total War experience which can prevent me from snowballing and maintain challenge even after 200 turns. By turn 60, after an unfortunate accident that saw my king killed in a minor skirmish and the civil war that followed, I was down to my final city. My royal family was turned completely wretched and deformed by a stubborn witch. by turn 160 I had taken back my empire from the Byzantines and the Qipchaks and forged powerful alliances with a new and modern army. By turn 195 I had lost it all to a rampaging Holy Roman Empire whom had already vassalized my neighbours Poland and Venice. I only wish they had offered me the same choice.
As always I had an absolute blast and can't wait to do it all over again.
Miles
Re: HUNGARY
WORK IN PROGRESS
If I remember correctly there was demand for inspiration to create some specific titles and ancilliaries for Hungary. Not sure whetever I remember that right. Nevertheless I began collecting some term/words used to describe all kind of nobility in hungary with some information in what context these terms were used. Perhaps some of them can be used as titles, traits or ancilliaries. Once again, excuse my lack of proper grammar and my inability to explain my self properly at times.
Disclaimer: written records from Regnum Hungariae before 13th century are quite rare. It was only after 13th century that boom of written records has occured. Many of words used here therefore belong mostly to period after 13th century but it does not neccessarily mean that these titles were unknown in older periods.
Barones – used from 13th century onwards. Term is used in relation to most influental and most powerful nobles in kingdom. In 1309 for example, people mentioned as barones were palatins Omodej and Mathias de Trencsen, tavernicus, two bans and voevod of Transylvania. It was very small group of very powerful people who held highest titles in kingdom, often in possesion of large parts of kingdoms and executives of semiautonomous parts of kingdoms such as Slavonia, Croatia and Transylvania, that were „ruled“ by ban’s. Title baro/barones was not hereditary; it was temporarily held title by very influental people in king’s court or people in proximity to king.
Bilotus – used from 12th century. These were people responsible for collecting tax and toll payments for king’s purse. They could also judge thiefs and criminal but only in presence of župan (župan being head of castle county/comitatus, in some cases castles > comes castri). Later, in Golden bull from 1231 it is stated that they have right to judge criminals and thiefs in presence of village magistrate/maior.
Castellanus – appears from half of 13th century onwards. Word was adopted into Slovak language in form of kastelán, that bears meaning of „commander/captain“ of castle and its vicinity. Its meaning is similar to comes castri, basically župan of castle.
Castrenses – appears since 11th century. Unlike previous terms, this one i sused for social group of mostly lower nobility (zemianstvo). Term is derived from latin castrum = castle, literally people of castles. These people could own, sell and rent land. It is possible that they were rewarded for their military duty hence some of them became members of low status nobility. Very similar is social group of iobagiones castri or homines castri. Term probably better used for military units/roster, rather than trait or ancilliary.
Comes – used since 11th century. Is one of oldest and most popular temr used to describe nobility in kingdom. It is derived from latin comitari – to escort/accompany someone. In medieval hungarian kingdom it was used to describe someone who follows/accompany the king, usually armed men. Examination of king Stephen’s codice reveals that comes/ plural comites were king’s closest warriors, first generation of hungarian nobility. This title was hereditary. These warriors were akin to western knights, they were expected to fight valianty and follow christian principles of morale and ethics. This nobility was either of native origin or from abroad. Native nobility could be divided into older – descendants of old magyar tribal leaders; and younger – people who were granted land for their political, economical or military achievements. Many of those were of Slovak origin. But also from other native people living in danubian basin. Among second group – foreign nobility were mostly knights and other nobles from german or romance lands who came to kingdom already during Stephen I.
Comes armigerorum – armigeri meaning armor beares were part of king’s army and retinue. Comes armigeri was man in command of such people. He was appointed by king himself. Quite rare title generally. Recorded in 13th century, but it is assumed that it was used long bfore that.
Comes castri, comes comitatus and comes parochianus – titles used to describe men with leading/executive power in castles and counties (comitatus, župa), which were smaller districts/lower level of state organization.
Comes udvornicorum – recorded since 13th century, assumed to exist since at least 11th century. It could be described as comes (again leading man, simply man in charge) of dvornik’s. Dvornik, plural dvornici or in hungarized version udvornici were men in service of royal court. Comes from slavic/slovak dvor, which means court.
Consanquieitas
Dominus
Familiarius
Famulus
Fidelitas
Filii iobagionum
Filii iobagionum sancti regis
Hereditas
Homines castri
Iobagiones regis
Iobagiones castri
Iudex curie regie
Magister
Magister agasonum
Magister dapiferorum
Magister pincenarum
Magister tavarnicorum
Magnates
Maior precoum
Maiores
Meliores
Ministri regis
Nobilis
Nuncius regis
Optimates
Palatinus
Prediales
Principes
Pristaldus
Proceres castri
Senescalcus
Seniores
Servientes
Subditi
Tributarii
Vicecomes
Viceiudex curie regis
History and gameplay!
Re: HUNGARY
An event for Hungary
And an interesting pic from @Olasz campaign:
Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 17, 2023 at 05:06 PM.
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