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Thread: HUNGARY

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default HUNGARY

    I. General information

    This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.
    The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.

    It may be worth to have a look at the Tsardoms' thread on Hungary.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; April 01, 2021 at 09:17 AM.

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    Default [F] - Hungary

    II. Strategy & gameplay

    To be developed in due course. If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a proposal for this section.

    Lovely music to listen to along playing this faction.


    Quote Originally Posted by RodriguesSting View Post
    Hungary is a very interesting nation to play as. If you think Catholics have it easy, first off, you are actually thinking of Latins, and second, Hungary will change your mind.

    Strategically, they are a quite interesting faction for two reasons: firstly, you have all your ancestral homelands (in that case, Panonia, rather than... wherever Magyars came from) from the get go, 5 whole provinces, which is not small realm. Furthermore, said provinces have an interesting combination of features: they are very wealthy, and very under-developed. Nearly every single of them have gold or silver, and you do get some mines from the get go, which can make for a stupendous income boost. However, all of these provinces are on very low level of development, and have low population, so they will take some time to get where you need them to. That makes for turtling a rather appealing strategy. And sadly, gold and silver can't be used to make weapons and armor, a subject I will touch up later.

    And the second reason is, they are surrounded by 6 factions. The Holy Roman Empire, Poland, Venice, Serbia, the Unholy Greek Tyranny, and the Quipchags. And they all are looking forwards taking these resource rich lands. The more pressing neighbor is Poland, of course, as you already start at war with them, and their capital is VERY close to you. For them, you can either crush their standing army by gathering your forces, won't be too difficult, specially if you use well your horse archers, and go for an early conquest spree. But that carries its diplomatic implications of tanking your Reputation, and the risk of getting your ass kicked by the pope. My preferred method is to disband most of my forces (minus the horse archers, you can keep either the nobles or the riders, up to taste), quickly gather a sum of around 8000 gold (quite quickly, and won't even have to stall my development), and buy peace and alliance with them. Said alliance won't last without the occasional bribe and show of force when their army decides to do some "field exercises" right outside your capital, but waging war on a fellow catholic can get out of hand VERY quick.

    After solving the issue with the Poles, temporarily or permanently, your most aggressive neighbors will be the Byzantines and the Cumans. Both can also be brought with alliances and the ocasional stern stare by your standing army when they decide frontiers are social constructs, but will overall be much less of a headache than your immediately norther neighbors. That said, keep in mind, all of them, all of the 6, can invade you when you least expect it, so get that one diplomat of yours working overtime and that standing defense army going.

    Finally, the units. Not much to say, except they are completely different from the Latins. City militia is mostly the same, except they don't get Crossbow Militia, but rather, Crossbow Levies (so more useful on the field, they offer a better soft performance for their cost than the militia version), and slavic javelinman that can work as a decent, quickly replenishing light infantry. Don't underestimate javelins, I had half a bodyguard unit slaughtered by getting shot by these guys, AFTER charging and killing a good deal of them. They are barely better than spear militia fighting infantry, but at least offer a decent bang for your buck overall and can be a candidate for your standing army core unit. Think only the capital provides them though, but as said, with good replenishment, and you can fill up with mercenary recruitment, will be the exact same unit, although cheaper, and with experience. Mercenaries with conventional recruitment are on a weird spot right now.

    Castles, which would usually provide you with your nice cost-effective feudal levy or even early professionals to make your standing army, won't do. For infantry, you get Valach Axemen. They are essentially tribal axemen, somewhat akin to Lithuanians, but... with a pricey upkeep for what they provide you with. Regardless, their offensive stats are just decent enough to assault walls and overpower archers and spearmen, so they have their uses. Then, the Pavise Spearmen. Think something like Serjeants, but coming a bit early. Their replenishment starts at 8 on their pool of 1 though, so don't expect to field large numbers of these until you get a Fortress. Finally, from Fortress Onwards, you get the Light Swordsmen. They are kinda like the Light Serjeants, but a bit... worse. Cheaper though, and will for sure beat the axemen for the spot of assault infantry.

    The cavalry though, is interesting. Firstly, at the very start... you don't have a national recruitment. Build a stable outside Tartar regions, it will give you nothing. But the ones that do, will give you nice numbers of Magyar Riders, light cavalry archers that are pretty good shoots, and can do a decent job at melee, specially after their one armor upgrade. Thankfully, you do have your knights, or something close of it, the Magyar Nobles. Not that armored, not packing a devastating charge, but are even better horse archers, fairly survivable thanks to their improved armor and shield, and after running out of arrows, can even work as some medium cavalry. These are the ones you will get from your Small Councils.

    Foot archers, don't have much to say. Castles will provide you with Village Archers, levy that can be raised in 1 turn and is cheap but not good for much other than shooting, and barely good at it, and then Vallach Archers, that may look like they have the exact same stats, but their hidden stats may indicate they are slightly better. If worth the increased upkeep though, up to you.

    So this is your army, and as you may have noticed, it is not great. Other than your cavalry, you are on a pretty gnarly spot. With Latins, I could make standing armies of Spearmen (with upgraded armor) supported by Archers and some Levy Archers to do most of the killing, alongside Mounted Serjeants or maybe even Knights for the killing blow. You really don't get anything to form an effective line here, be either short of numbers, or defensive stats, and if you are not the kind that likes crossbows, you will probably want to stick to the mounted archers. By using skirmishing, I managed to get some quite impressive victories, targeting commanders and knights with my Nobles while making surgical strikes on their light infantry with the Bodyguard. Keep in mind though, in this mod, cavalry is TERRIBLY weak against archer fire, only shoot if the enemy can't shoot at all. Otherwise, charge and let these quite decent melee horse archers win their pay.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 19, 2021 at 11:14 AM.

  3. #3
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - Hungary

    III. Provinces

    The provinces that have historically been associated with this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file. However, some may be in another faction's thread - due to historical or purely technical reasons.

    Provincial titles:
    General explanations to be found in the relevant thread on the PTs.
    Catholic: I considered the use of the Hungarian term “Ispán”. However, because the title will be used also by other catholic factions, I've decided to use the Latin term "Comes".
    Orthodox, Muslim: generic "Knyaz of" and "Emir of".
    Coast of arms: have been reviewed and updated to be as historical as possible.
    Name of the settlements: early era / high era / late era. If changes after conquest of another faction/religion, it can be changed through script.

    A general comment on the population: the Hungarian settlements seem implausibly small, especially if you compare it to the Polish and Rus settlements (not to mention fantasy numbers in Anatolia and Caucasus). I don't think there's such a difference, Hungary was already quite developed as compared to those other territories.


    Esztergom (Upper Hungary):
    PT: Dux Stringoniensis (difficult choice since the lord of Esztergom was an archbishop and I don't want to use ecclesiastical titles. However, to underscore the importance of this title "Dux" will be used - unless somebody proves me wrong)
    CoA: not checked.
    Settlement name:
    Province name: includes also Upper Hungary (Slovakia),but not only. However, this seems to be a compromise.
    Resources: rich land as it includes also Slovakian mines.
    Fertility: ok.
    There's a scipt changing name Esztergom into Gran if taken by non-Polish catholic faction.

    It's essential that this province is underdevelopped at the beginning: it was only the colonisation on the German law that made it a very profitable land. So the intial buildings and resources should be reviewed.

    Szekesfehervar (Lower Hungary)
    PT: Comes Albae Regiae (no idea if it existed in history, but it sounds immersive)
    CoA: not checked.
    Settlement name: fine for the early and high eras, but in the late era should be Buda.Province name: it's a compromise but I'm not sure if a better wouldn't be found.
    Resources: ok.
    Fertility: ok.
    There's a scipt changing name Szekesfehervar into Alba Regia if taken by non-Polish catholic faction. Also Buda might be considered but it should be related to change of the place...

    Varad (Pannonian Plain, Alföld )
    PT: Comes Varadiensis (as above)
    Settlement name: ok. For the Catholics - Grosswardein.
    CoA: not checked.
    Province name: has been adjusted to Alföld.
    Resources: cattle.
    Fertility: very low, it's exactly why nomads would roam these salty lands of the puszta.
    Varad for long had neither walls, nor real self government, and its inhabitants were not cives, but the tenants of the bishop and the chapter residing in the town, thanks to its favourable geographical location, it became one of the most important trade centres (had the right to hold annual fairs 11 times a year).

    Gyulafehervar (Transilvania)
    PT: Voivoda Transsylvaniae (easy choice, he was very important throughout Middle Ages - it's a Latin version)
    Settlement name: ok. For the Catholics - Alba Iulia.
    CoA: not checked.
    Province name: ok.
    Resources: very rich land!
    Fertility: high.

    Zagreb (Croatia)
    PT: Banus Croatiae (obvious historical choice)
    Settlement name: ok.
    CoA: not checked.
    Province name: ok.
    Resources: rich land.
    Fertility: ok.

    Zara (Dalmatia)
    PT: Dux Dalmatiae (title used by the Venetian Doges from 1000).
    CoA: not checked.
    Settlement name:
    Province name: ok.
    Resources: rich land.
    Fertility: ok.
    Name for the Orthodox: Zadar.

    Vrhbosna (Bosnia)
    PT: Ban Bosniae. In 1136, Béla II of Hungary invaded upper Bosnia for the first time and created the title "Ban of Bosnia", initially only as an honorary title for his grown son Ladislaus II of Hungary. For the Orthodox maybe "Knez ..." would be more appropriate.
    CoA: not checked.
    Settlement name:
    Province name: ok (appears in the Byzantine sources in 10th century). However, I'm not sure about the settlement. Later, 14-15th centuries, it was Bobovac that was the main settlment.
    Resources: silver (famous mines 14-15th centuries).
    Fertility: 1. High mountains and little feritile lands made this part of Europe very scarcely populated in the MA.

    Ragusa (Ragusa)
    PT: XXX (I need to consult a book)
    CoA: not checked.
    Settlement name: Ragusa for all, Dubrownik for the Slavic factions.Province name: ok.
    Resources: wood (from the hills around, accessible for trade thanks to promixity of the sea), tolls (trade going from the interior, ie from Bosna).
    Fertility: 2. Not much feritile land around, and the city of Ragusa itself was small till the end of the Middle Ages (6-8k citizens).


    (consultations with the guys from the Madgyar mod were made to get these titles)
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; March 13, 2021 at 03:16 AM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - Hungary

    IV. Faction specific features (Crown, Offices, Bloodline, Traits, Buildings)

    The Crown of Hungary is discussed in this entry. The maps for the provinces required to get crowns are below: there're two options for the player.

    The Offices are described in this thread. Hungary has a unique (shared with Poland) title Palatinus instead of Privy Seal.

    Some ideas:
    - master of the horse (főlovászmester)
    - palatine (nádor)
    - master of the treasury (tárnokmester)


    Hungary has access to some buildings that may be not available to every faction: Castle Library, University (highest level), Tourney Fields.
    (note: this might be important for getting certain traits).

    Hungarian Blood: not checked.

    Specific traits: not checked.



    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; September 17, 2020 at 05:16 AM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - Hungary

    V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)

    to be developed in due course

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - Hungary

    VI. Units

    Hungary doesn't have heavy cavalry at the beginning what makes it an interesting faction to play. It's a rich faction, having quite a few provinces and good income but it has to rely on the light nobles (that have heavy bodyguards) in fighting. The numerous horse archers are very useful against light troops but confronted with the knights from the west or the cataphracts from the south may find it difficult to win.

    Idea: at the end of century, after Bela III reign, the feudal culture became more widespread in Hungary and it should signify appearance of the heavy feudal troops, first in small numbers, then in larger.

    A historical even can be used to this end:



    {GOLDEN_BULL_HUNGARIAN_BODY}\n\n Andrew II, King of Hungary, issued in 1222 a Golden Bull. The charter summarized the liberties of the royal servants, including their exemption from taxes and the jurisdiction of the ispáns. The last clause of the Golden Bull authorized "the bishops as well as the other barons and nobles of the realm, singularly and in common" to resist the monarch if he did not honor the provisions of the charter. The Golden Bull clearly distinguished the royal servants from the king's other subjects, which led to the rise of the Hungarian nobility
    {GOLDEN_BULL_HUNGARIAN_TITLE} II. András Golden Bull

    Magyar Cavalry is available also from the Nomadic buildings.
    Code:
     grasslands  requires factions { cumans, mongols, turks, } and not building_present_min_level farms farms+2    {
          convert_to 0
          capability
          {
            trade_base_income_bonus bonus 1 
    		population_growth_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { cumans, mongols, turks, }
            happiness_bonus bonus -1 requires not factions { cumans, mongols, turks, }
    		income_bonus bonus 200 requires factions { cumans, mongols, }
    		
            cavalry_bonus 1
    		free_upkeep bonus 1 requires factions { cumans, mongols, }
            
            recruit_pool  "Dismounted Cuman Militia"  1   0.1   2  0  requires factions { cumans, } and hidden_resource cumans
            recruit_pool  "Dismounted Cuman Militia"  1   0.05   2  0  requires factions { cumans, } and hidden_resource turks or hidden_resource russia or hidden_resource kievan_rus
            recruit_pool  "Cuman Horse Militia"  1   0.08   2  0  requires factions { cumans, } and hidden_resource cumans
            recruit_pool  "Cuman Horse Militia"  1   0.04   2  0  requires factions { cumans, } and hidden_resource turks or hidden_resource russia or hidden_resource kievan_rus
            recruit_pool  "Magyar Cavalry"		0.9		0.11	3  0  requires factions { hungary, } and not event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and hidden_resource tartars
            recruit_pool  "Magyar Cavalry"		0.7		0.06	2  0  requires factions { hungary, } and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter GOLDEN_BULL_HUNGARIAN 1 and hidden_resource tartars		
          }
          material wooden
          construction  6
          cost  1000
          settlement_min village
          upgrades
          {
            nomad_encampment
          }
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; February 11, 2021 at 07:20 AM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - Hungary

    VIII. Reserve

    to be used if needed

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    Lifthrasir's Avatar "Capre" Dunkerquois
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    Default Re: [F] - HUNGARY

    While looking for info about Serbia during the Early Era, I found this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Odovacar View Post
    I must dispute with this. before 1242 Hungary had not enough stone castles. The country, despite its wealth and power, was poorly protected. Even later, in the 16th century Istvan Szamosközy frequently complained that the lack of fortified places was the cause of the downfall of hungarian kingdom against turks.


    11th century hungarian armies relied on horsearcher masses and foreign (german) knights with a small elite of hungarian nobles.
    The 'typical' hungarian army before 1241 was composed mainly of light and medium cavalrymen. These people could not be defensive as they had not much armour. They were rather agile, agressive, seeking melee, and swift decision in battle.

    The royal army consisted of
    -troops of counts (comes=ispán) that is knights
    -lesser noblemen (medium cavalry)
    -székelys or nomad allies serving mainly as horsearcher
    -foot soldiers (slavs, peasents, etc.)

    Later they put greater weight on heavy cavalry, and King Béla IV worked hard to increase the number of knights, by restricting the number of noble levies, and prescribing western equipment. Sometimes hungarian knights carried bows because between 1241 and 1300 nomads were a frequent danger. The infantry was rather insignificant, and was somewhere between small elites and big levied bands.

    Even so as sources prove, the hungarian army remained a largely medium cavalry based force. From the 14th century onwards the role infantry begun to grow and in the 15th century for a short period a strong infantry appears, but always mainly from mercenaries.

    Hungarian armies in general were always agile and aggressive on battlefields.
    Under the patronage of Flinn, proud patron of Jadli, of the Imperial House of Hader


  9. #9
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    After quite some time, I returned to M2, and found this wonderful mod!
    - stability is among the best ever
    - reasonable prices for units, no AI army spam
    - good athmosphere in general
    - very good research (I bet you had a hungarian advisor at some point!)
    - the best map of Hungary I have ever seen outside Magyar mod!


    Still, to contribute something here are my thoughts:

    1: I feel basic infrastructure, which represent province-wise investment should take much longer to build. I am thinking of basic roads and first level farms, not ports and warehouses. I admit I don't know how the AI would deal with it though. Basic roads/land clerance could be 10-15 turns or so.

    2: Hungary ruling family
    First of all, this tells something that you have Borisz in the mod, usually not even hungarians are aware of him. But at this time he was not heir of Hungary, he was a pretender attacking Hungary with polish troops. Basically what happened is that BĂ©la (king) was allied to germans, the pretender Borisz to Poland, and they used allied troops in the conflict. Béla and his german alliles won against Borisz. Borisz should be a general of Poland, rather than a heir of Hungary.

    3: the king and his family
    Béla: he was fully blind. (his father and him were blinded when Béla was a kid, so that they cannot be heirs to the throne) His main "crutches" were his wife, Ilona and Belos (or Belus), Ilona's brother, zhupan Uros' son.

    Ilona: Jelena Vukanovic. According to the present day knowledge, she was kind of a co-ruler, a fully equal partner of Béla. She was most likely not a pleasant lady, as she organized the "massacre of Arad". After the coronation of Béla, she organized a council, where all of the nobility was invited. Among them the 68, who had a part in the blinding of the king. They didn't leave the council alive... Also, it tells something, that after his husband died, she had no problems with keeping order until her son came of age.

    Belus (Belos in other sources) Vukanovic, Jelena's brother, zhupan Uros' son. He was the strong man and main general of the king, also guardian of Béla's children (basically a regent...) after the king died. In the process, he became croatian ban.

    If you need a heir at game start:
    - you can use Belus (it would be nice to make him sterile tho)
    - you can use Saul (a wild card, not much known despite he was the heir of István II)

    Full family:

    Géza I (king)

    __Kálmán I (king, son of Géza I)
    ____István II (king, son of Kálmán, no male descendant)
    ____Zsófia (daughter of Kálmán)
    ______Saul (son of Zsófia, designated heir of István II)
    ____Borisz (bastard of Kálmán, pretender)


    __Álmos (pretender, son of Géza I, blinded for rebelliousness)
    ____Béla II, the blind (became king, blinded as a kid)

    Fun fact. Even though Kálmán blinded Álmos and Béla, the latter not just became king, but became a progenitor of all later kings of the Árpád dynasty. For this reason all later works (paid by descendants of the blind king) portray Kálmán as a hunchback.

    4: Hungary should be allied with Serbia. Common enemy (Byzantines), and half of the royal court is related to Uros. Béla should be alliled with HRE against Poland, and should be in war with Poland. The conlict of the start year is basically german and poland supporting their own candidate and future ally.
    A less impactful version: Hungary ally with Serbia, no alliance with HRE, no war with Poland, put rebel general Borisz in northern Hungary with a full stack of rebel poles.




    Units: the roster is a bit... vanilla like. The best I have seen outside magyar mod, but still. If you interested in a more historical roster (no reskins needed), I can write one.
    General considerations:
    - too many heavy cavalry unit types, too many recruitment slots for knights (or rather "refresh rates")
    - some leftover fantasy units (transylvanian peasants, vlach archers, etc.)
    - too many ethic units, (hungary didn't use ethic organization), generally too many foot variants
    In the period Hungary should mainly be a skirmisher faction, with slowly becoming a charging cavalry faction by 1300-1350. (the developement of infantry is late 14th century, and it was hussite/polish style "block of men, where the cavalry can reform if needed". Field works, pavese shieldbearers, halberdiers, handguns, the usual drill)
    Last edited by shikaka; September 16, 2020 at 01:38 PM.

  10. #10
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    I wrote it anyway

    EARLY&HIGH
    Who goes to war, and who doesn’t?
    1: Men of the royalty. Dignitaries, nobles arriving from abroad and serve the king, retinues of foreign princesses (common: german, aragonese, italian).
    They can be represented with a usual general’s bodyguard and a standard german knight unit. Also a dismounted version. Refresh rate should be lower than Germany. Eg. in X turns Germany gets 3, Hungary should get 2.

    2: Professional warriors payed by the king. (the king held about 80-90% of the lands personally!) They are called king’s freemen or shire servants. They get estates on royal or shire lands in exchange for military service. They also provide the backbone of the campaign army, men the castles, and provide general border guard duties during peace.
    They can be represented with 1 or 3 units. What is a must is a medium armored horse archer, also armed with spear and shield, good morale, and capable of melee. (should be weaker in melee than a western knight of course)
    What is optional (mostly a game balance reason to have some infantry at all), is to have two dismounted king’s freemen units: one with spear and shield, one with bow (the bowmen should not „forget” their skill in melee, and should still have their light armor. In practice these would be hybrids similar to norse/highland archers in vanilla M2tw)

    3: Freemen and auxuliaries. While the backbone was provided by the professionals, the numbers were provided by the freemen and auxuiliary tribes. Freemen are generic hungarians, who can afford a horse and go to war. Auxuiliary folks are the szeklers (székely), and steppe tribes who were allowed to settle in Hungary. Even if a tribe assimilated, a new one arrived and was allowed to settle. This carried on until about the mid 14th century. (at different periods: khabars, pechenegs, iasons, cumans) In general, székely and auxiliary tribes were given „collective nobility”, limited authority, in exchange for military service and a piece of border to protect. (eg. székely were re-settled in Transylvania, cumans were given land in the south of Hungary, etc.)
    You have more choices here. Since all of them were fighting as horse archers, the easiest is to have one light cavalry horse archer unit with a very good refresh rate which is also avilable in cities. The other idea is to have different, but similar units (what magyar mod did. One has a long range, one has AP maces, one has good stamina, etc.)

    Who doesn’t (usually) go to war, but undoubtadly exist:
    Peasants, town militia. Infantry in general. (horses were much cheaper than in the west, even peasants could afferd more then one) Infantry should be dismounted versions of cavalry.

    Who doesn’t even exist:
    The kingdom never used ethnic units, so slav levies, vlach axeman, transylvanian peasants. These should be AOR mercenaries, and removed from the hungarian roster.
    What Hungary lacks in the early period: armor piercing weapons. Numerous knights. Quality militia. (in Hungary-Byzantium battles the AP weapons of the romans proved to be much more useful than hungarian swords)

    Historical army: 1 general, 1-3 western style knight, 3-6 king’s freeman, ~10 horse archer




    HIGH
    From about the mongol invasion, considerable effort went into having more knights, stone castles, and professional defenders of these new castles. The percentage of royal lands (and royal troops in campaigns) is less and less, the influence of dignitaries increase. The royal freemen should possibly be retired.

    1: crossbowmen. The hungarian version should not be militia, but a castle based professional, which can be dual used as light infantry with sword.
    2: some cities started to produce good militia. The first entries about infantry contributions to battles are from this era. Mostly heavy infantry provided by saxon settlers, dalmatian cities and bigger population centres (eg. Kassa/Kosice).
    3: italian influence. Mostly battles with Venice, and Anjou kings. Pavese crossbowmen and Pavese shieldbearer. Neither are militia, professional castle troops. The latter should be a slow, armored spearman with a pavese shield.
    historical army: very similar to Early, with bigger heavy cavalry percentage, and lower horse archer percentage. In select battles, saxon/city militia and/or crossbows.


    LATE
    Some big changes here. Horse archery should be retired. (Sigismund – late 14th century – had to introduce the militia portalis law to have at least some – low quality – horse archers. Basically peasants on a horse)
    The final pieces of the „hussite style eastern european block” arrive. We already have the pavese shieldbearers, and the pavese crossbows because of the italian/Anjou influence. The additions of the era are:
    1: arquebusiers in increasing numbers. In the beginning it was 1 arquebus for 1 shield, later (Matthias Corvinus) it was 3 arquebus per 1 shield.

    2: armor piercing polearms, mostly halberd.
    The hungarian centre in the final form is: 2-3 arquebus, 1-2 pavese crossbow, 1 halberds per 1 pavese shieldbearer. Usually behind field forts (trenches, chains, stakes, sometimes even tabor-like wagon forts)

    3: artillery: mortars, basilisks and serpentines.

    4: the arrival of the gothic style heavy cavalry. (new bodyguards. Western style gothic heavy cavalry, named as either baronial troops or royal banderium. Can be represented with 1 unit. Dismounted versions too.)

    5: Hussar. maybe the most important unit in the roster. Ottoman (akinji) serbian (gussar) and vlach (voynik) influence light cavalry. Similar to polish lisowczycy. Great in numbers (usually outnumbers heavy cav 3:1). They are mostly a use what you have unit and have a specific niche in history. Tasks during „peace”: counter raiding, scouting, raiding, patrolling borders, clashes with akinji units, setting up ambushes.
    They should be a light cavalry unit with: good morale, fast pony, hide in forest (!), good stamina. No armor (but possible upgrade to mail). Good charge, but not much staying power. Ususal equipment: shield, lance, sabre and/or military pick, steel helmet. Chainmail only for the wealthier ones. Archery is dropped because often they operated at night/inside forests, where it was not useful. The vanilla hussar unit look surprisingly ok, even the shield shape is good enough.
    I have no idea how to do this: when entering the era, the player should be able to recruit these everywhere, even villages and wooden forts. However, these should not be available very early in the game. The best would be to swap the king's freemen with the hussars at a certain date, but I don't know if that is possible. Or maybe allow them in stables1, but only after gunpowder?

    Not existing: any kind of pikes. Sometimes flemish/valoon/spanish pikes were hired, but these were always mercs, or supplied by allies (Venice, Spain, etc.)

    Historical army: 60-40 in favor of cavalry. 60-80% of the cavaly force is hussar, 20-40% is heavy cavalry. Infantry makeup: About half shoud be paveses (50-50 pavese crossbow and pavese spear), the rest should be arquebus and armored halbers.



    Special mention:
    Croatia was a bit different than Hungary. It would make sense to introduce a western style sergeant to represent croatian medium cavalry. Difficult to implement, because it shouldn’t be recruitable outside Croatia. (magyar mod added it to every settlement, but used croatian/dalmatian coat of arms for the unit)

    A word on AOR:
    Earlier I wrote that Hungary didn’t use ethic conscription. If you were a noble, and signed up, you became a iobagiones castri, noone cared if your native tongue is romanian, serbian, german or hungarian. Same about knights and horse archers: light cavalry is light cavalry, there was no big difference between hungarian, székely, pecheneg, vlach. Still, some neighbouring countries had mercenary units which could be useful.

    Serbia: standout is serbian gussar, which is pretty much the same as the hungarian, ottoman akinji, or albainan stradioti. The first hungarian hussars were actually of serbian ethicity. Javelins were not really common.
    Romanians: vlach spearman with good morale and hide in forest. Vlach voyniks should be good quality lancer or horse archer cavalry (perhaps both).
    Peasants, peasant archers: were not really used, but are necessary for rebellions (and maybe crusades)
    Mounted crossbow: for a brief period at the end of the 13th century, these were popular in the region as bodyguard units of dignitaries. Were not really significant enough to add as a faction unit, but might be useful as mercs.
    Late: czech mercenary infantry. Pavese shieldbearer heavy infantry, halberds, shield+flails, arquebus. These guys are the swiss mercs of eastern europe, and acted as drill instructors in most countries.
    Last edited by shikaka; September 17, 2020 at 02:46 AM.

  11. #11
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    short summary! Thinking about it, Hungary can be represented with relatively few units.


    EARLY
    CASTLE
    - horsemen (representing auxiliaries and freemen. Medium quality, light horse archer. Important: not peasant archer on a horse. The folks the unit represent had training, experience and martial tradition.)
    - cavalry (representing shire servants, and king's freemen. Medium armored, melee capable horse archer)
    - dismounted cavalry (shire servents and king's freemen on foot. Spear and shield)
    - foot archers (shire servants and king's freeman on foot. ARcher-melee hybrid)
    - hungarian knights & dismounted knights (representing dignitaries, german/aragonese/italian nobles&retinues). Refresh lower then german (probably 2/3)


    TOWN
    - horsemen (representing auxiliaries and freemen. Medium quality, light horse archer)
    - city watch (armed citizens in emergency. Probably not even a shield, but generic town militia is a good compromise), spear militia (~weekend soldiers)




    HIGH
    CASTLE:
    - add professional crossbowmen
    - add pavese crossbowmen (hybrid, able to defeat low quality infantry in melee. Should lose to foot knights of course)
    - add pavese shieldbearer (heavy armor spearmen with pavese. Disciplined, expensive, good morale. Should be a dependable, workhorse like frontline unit until the end of the game)
    CITY:
    - add polearm militia (representing dalmatian and saxon militia). Maybe not to drill square, but saxon/italian quaters building.




    LATE
    - remove horsemen (both city and castle)
    - remove cavalry
    - add hussar (both city and castle). Light lancer cavalry, shield and helmet, unarmored but upgradable. Fast horse, good stamina, hide in forest, good morale. Not much staying power after the charge.
    - add baronial cavalry (gothic style armor) and dismouted version. Alternate name can be banderium.
    - add arquebus
    - add professional, armored polearm (similar to "high" saxon militia, but professional from castle)
    - add artillery (mortar, serpentine, basilisk)




    OPTIONAL:
    - add "lancer": croatian sergeant. Early and high era, because the croatian setup was different than the hungarian. Similar to western sergeants.
    - add merc: czech arquebus, czech pavese spearman, czech polearm, czech artillery. Good morale, professional, maybe even fearsome. Probably the whole region (not sure, but I think the also worked in Poland)
    - add merc: mounted crossbow.
    - remove: all pikes
    - remove: ethnic units (or move to AOR)
    - optional: horse archer variants instead of generic "hungarian horsemen". Magyar freemen, pechenegs, cumans, iasons, vlach voyniks. Probably overkill.
    - optional: add bad quality horse archer to Late era. (representing militia portalis law). Should be worse then early/high hungarian horsemen. While horsemen represent cumans, freeman and székely, this should be a peasant archer on a horse.
    Last edited by shikaka; September 17, 2020 at 03:54 AM.

  12. #12
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    0.97 at a glance:

    Titles
    I think I agree with all. I have concerns with Esztergom, because if was the seat of the archibshop, and the new rulers had to visit him for coronation. But I think I understand why you don't want to use a church title.

    Alternative: remove Esztergom alltogether (it became insignificant as a population centre after the mongol invasion anyway), and add Pozsony or Kassa, which were the regional centres of present day Slovakia. A bit early, but might solve your problem.

    Kassa (sk: Kosice): about halfway between the mountains (Poland) and the river Tisza. This was a considerable trade city (Poland-mountains-hungarian plains). First mention is 1230, but by early 1312, they already received the free city status. (for the battle of Rozgony, the city supplied the royal army with infantry.) Kassa's original inhabitants were mostly german settlers.
    Pozsony (sk: Bratislava, de: Pressburg): earlier then Kassa, but at a more crowded place of the map. This was an important medieval location. Access to the Danube meant both trade and easy shipping. Also was key against german invasions*, and the castle stopped a few. We know that there was a city there in 1002 the latest.
    *both the germans from the west, and later the ottomans from the south used the Danube as a campaign route. Supplies were always on boats, it was much more efficient than oxcarts. For this reason forts by the river were very important (supply is cut off, if the fort is intact). In the northwest these important cities were Pozsony and Komárom (currently Komarno), in the south Nándorfehérvár (Belgrade).


    Map
    Very good job! I wanted to highlight that Zagreb should be changed to a castle from a city, but forgot about it yesterday.
    Resources are very good. To be honest I don't know what the resource list is in the mod. You might want to add these if you have them:
    - horses to the plains. A main export ware during the middle ages. It was very common to own multiple horses, even for peasants.
    - livestock to the plains (beef, mostly). A big part of the plains is not suited for agriculture, but is perfect for cattle. Hungarian cattledrives to Vienna were infamous. (at a later date, hungarian cattle drivers were even banned from entering Vienna because of the barfights )
    - salt to Transylvania. It was actually more profitable then the silver mine.


    Units
    I missed the székely from 0.96, is this a new unit? I don't know if it is necessary, but if you want to have a székely unit, they were horse archers in the period. They became infantry much later, when their collective nobility status was harder and harder to justify (they became poorer.) 1500's or so.
    Last edited by shikaka; September 18, 2020 at 12:30 AM.

  13. #13
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    Hi shikaka,
    thanks a lot for your comments and information. I wish we'd have such exhaustive comments for each faction.

    Just reacting to some of them:
    *names of the cities - since we're starting in 1132, Kassa or (less) Pozsony would be out of place.
    * resources - good information, cattle drive to Vienna is already depicted in 097, I think. Salt from Turda could be shown indeed. Nice mine, btw.
    * szekely - not a new unit, but a renamed one (from Transylvanian peasants). Will be available from the mines. Yes, szekely should be horse archers - perhaps in the future it'd be changes (and a unit with halberds in 12c. is a fantasy, anyway).
    * basic infrastructure (eg roads, carpenters) do take longer to build than before. I think it's close to balance given the gameplay considerations.
    * yeah, Alfold is indeed considered steppes, fit for animal breeding. It's why you've got a new resource cattle in Szekesfehervar and Varad provinces.

    The info on the roster will be definitely taken into account when we review the rosters comprehensively. But coding

    Same with family tree information - we need somebody who would take care of the family tree programming. For now, we've got the 092 version adjusted by VineFynn.

    Diplomatic initial stances will be reviewed at some point, but it's the same situation as with family tree: it's working for now, there's no coder who would play 100 times the mod and has the feeling how the game behaves.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; September 18, 2020 at 01:08 AM.

  14. #14
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    Hi shikaka,
    thanks a lot for your comments and information. I wish we'd have such exhaustive comments for each faction.

    Just reacting to some of them:
    *names of the cities - since we're starting in 1132, Kassa or (less) Pozsony would be out of place.
    * resources - good information, cattle drive to Vienna is already depicted in 097, I think. Salt from Turda could be shown indeed. Nice mine, btw.
    * szekely - not a new unit, but a renamed one (from Transylvanian peasants). Will be available from the mines. Yes, szekely should be horse archers - perhaps in the future it'd be changes (and a unit with halberds in 12c. is a fantasy, anyway).
    * basic infrastructure (eg roads, carpenters) do take longer to build than before. I think it's close to balance given the gameplay considerations.
    * yeah, Alfold is indeed considered steppes, fit for animal breeding. It's why you've got a new resource cattle in Szekesfehervar and Varad provinces.

    The info on the roster will be definitely taken into account when we review the rosters comprehensively. But coding

    Same with family tree information - we need somebody who would take care of the family tree programming. For now, we've got the 092 version adjusted by VineFynn.

    Diplomatic initial stances will be reviewed at some point, but it's the same situation as with family tree: it's working for now, there's no coder who would play 100 times the mod and has the feeling how the game behaves.

    Sure thing, understand of course. To be honest I really appreciate how much time this team spent on a usually neglected faction.
    Definietly the best depiction in any medieval 2 mod (excluding Magyar mod of course), the map is especially accurate and well done.

    Please treat these suggestions as some contribution to the mod, which can be used (or not) if you have resources to do so.


    If you can contact them (didn't see them online lately), Döme or Csati would permit using magyar mod units. They have a reputation for being unfair with requirements, but I never found them excessive.
    They used to lend units if:
    - carpathian basin is corrected on a map (not a copy of their map, but remove Dracula castle, add Tisza river and such. I'm sure your map qualifies)
    - unit skins are not used as fantasy units (eg. transylvanian peasants or battle assassins)
    - unit roster is mostly historical.
    Most modders who asked them never bothered with the map of eastern europe, this was the reason for the rejections.

  15. #15
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    @shikaka: maybe you can write a new campaign description for Hungary (and maybe other factions)?

    For the 097 Georgios has made the ERE one:
    {IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_BYZANTIUM_TITLE}The Polity of the Romans
    {IMPERIAL_CAMPAIGN_BYZANTIUM_DESCR}Nearly a thousand years after the proclamation of citizenship for all free men of the Roman Empire, the world is transformed - but the Roman people survive.\n\n“Romania”, their state is called- “Romanland”, still ruled, as it has been for eight centuries from the great imperial city on the Bosphorus. Whilst the city’s ancient name, Byzantion, is remembered by its educated elites, to the great mass of the Roman people, their capital is Konstantinoupolis, or simply “the City”. For the capital of Romania remains the inviolate Queen of Cities- largest, richest, and most opulent metropolis of Christendom. \n\nThat is not to say the Roman world is all it was. Within living memory, the collapse of Romania herself was all too real a prospect, with one city after another falling to the barbarians, and ruler after ruler being replaced in a desperate struggle for survival. But now, after a titanic effort, Romania is stable. Her European provinces are secured, and in Asia, a strong start has been made on recovering lost territories, even if the assistance of the Frankish barbarians was required. Current Emperor Ioannes II Komnenos is a dynamic and capable monarch, in the prime of his life- under him, there is a real chance of restoring Romania to its status as indisputably the greatest state in Christendom. \n\nHISTORICAL NOTE- The grant of citizenship to all free men of the Roman Empire in 212 accelerated ongoing processes of Romanisation, and transformed, by the fourth century, the multi-ethnic Roman Empire of the classical era into the far more cohesive state of Romania, with a strong collective Roman identity across the Mediterranean, amongst Greek and Latin speakers alike. The coming of Christianity and the foundation of Constantinople as a new imperial capital in the 320s further set the stone on this transformation. \n\nThough the state we know today as “Byzantium” endured many setbacks and failures, most notably in the permanent destruction of her global superpower status in the seventh century, Roman ideals and institutions continued regardless. The twelfth century would be the last great flowering of imperial power, but the Roman people continued to survive, albeit often under Latin or Turkish occupation, into the 20th century. Even the Greek language, puzzled Enlightenment travellers noted, had come to be known as “Romaic”. The rise of the modern Greek nation state began to put an end to ideas of Romanness, but even today, there are small communities of Greek speakers who continue to call themselves “Roman”.
    Furthermore, you may also draft the Conqueror traits for Esztergom, Szekesfehervar and Gyulafehervar?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    [QUOTE=Jurand of Cracow;15954914]@shikaka: maybe you can write a new campaign description for Hungary (and maybe other factions)?

    Will do, sometimes next week.

    Furthermore, you may also draft the Conqueror traits for Esztergom, Szekesfehervar and Gyulafehervar?
    From western perspective, I don't think these make sense. Hungary didn't really have settlements which were famous in the west.

    What would make sense in my though:
    - Belgrade. It was the entrance to the region, and was quite important to Byzantines and later Ottomans.
    - Székesfehérvár+Esztergom, and than Zagreb+Zara should be important to Byzantines (not very much to westerners), because an emperor could say he reconquered Dalmatia and Pannonia provinces. In the beginning of the era, romans actually considered the pannonian plains and Dalmatia a "roman province, temporarily not in their ownership".



    I also checked the win conditions. (I usually don't pay major attention during play, but anyway). Kill Venice+Serbia is not really OK. Hungary didn't really have any mortal enemies in the period, but both of these is a bit strange. Serbia was usually allied to Hungary (against romans, later ottomans) or was neutral. Venice was strange, as there were frequest clashes for Dalmatia, but Venice never wanted Hungary proper, and Hungary never wanted Venice's colonies or the city itself... Hm. Also, Hungary prospered when it was at peace with both HRE and Byzantines, while being en equal in central european status quo (Bohemia-Poland-Hungary)


    What would make sense I think is to re-create a personal union of the more famous kings, or a mix of these. Some not outrageous, late game empires:

    Louis of Anjou: he was king of Hungary and Croatia. Also king of Poland, and at one point, southern Italy (he had relatives killed in Naples, and put an other relative to the throne). So: Poland, kill Sicily. Pro is that the two main enemies are different, good gameplay. Contra: doesn't make much sense to have century long wars between Poland and Hungary.

    Sigismund of Luxemburg: king of Hungary and Croatia. Later King of Bohemia and emperor. Gameplay-wise this means a western expansion, which might be fun. It would not be historical for Hungary to take down HRE though (Sigismund was elected. A diplomat, not a conqueror). In general this mean conquer X settlements, with Prague included.

    Matthias: King of Hungary, Croatia. Conquered Bohemia and Vienna. This is quite doable, and I think fun. Conquer X settlements, with Prague included. After the conquests, the player country would look like Austria-Hungary (duchy of Austria, Ko Bohemia, Croatia and Hungary) which is nice I think.

    Vladislaus II: Now, this is something special, because I mean the Jagiello dynasty, not Vladislaus II as a person. At one point they were kings of: Hungary and Bohemia (Vladislaus II), Poland and Lithuania (Casimir/Alexendar). This would be a fun dynasty to recreate I think. This is: Poland doesn't exist, Lithuania doesn't exist, conquer Kraków+Prague.

    Béla III and András II: the strangest I think. Both of them were concerned with the crusades and Constantinople. Béla was brought up in the court of Manuel as a heir, and was offended when Andronikos killed Manuel's son. He also decided to go on a crusade (his wife was Agnes of Antioch). András II actually went on a crusade, and wanted to forge an alliance to help out the byzantine remnant states, married his children to byzantine princesses, etc. This type of plan would see the player campaigning on the balkans, and join crusades. This is more like: take Ragusa, Jerusalem, Antioch. No Sultanate of Rum.
    Last edited by shikaka; September 19, 2020 at 02:39 AM.

  17. #17
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    VCs: take into account gameplay considerations. For almost each faction the VC goal is fully unhistorical. Too many provinces.
    I got rid of Venice, but not Serbia - if it would be possible, Hungary would take over anyway. I'll add Poland, I think.

    On Louis - have a look for the Hungary's crown requirement. It's there.

    Prague will be a "hotspot of conflicts", I've started to think about it.

    Three settlements - you're right, but again for the gameplay it's good to have this trait - so that generals can get a trait after conquering something. In the end we should have 199 conqueror traits, one for each province. What's is needed, is a flavoured text.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; September 19, 2020 at 03:12 AM.

  18. #18
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    VCs: take into account gameplay considerations. For almost each faction the VC goal is fully unhistorical. Too many provinces.
    I got rid of Venice, but not Serbia - if it would be possible, Hungary would take over anyway. I'll add Poland, I think.
    Prague will be a "hotspot of conflicts", I've started to think about it.
    I think this is a good gameplay compromise. Even though a hundred years war between Poland and Hungary is not really historical, both countries had worse enemies, sometimes common (mongols, ottomans). But all three (Poland, Bohemia, Hungary) tried to change the central Eurpean status quo in their favor. Later in the era they even succeeded to an extent (Mathias Corvinus during his lifetime, later the JAgiello kings). It's a strange twist of fate, that who suceeded in doing so (the Habsburg) were originally a tool of Hungary to keep Bohamia out of the duchy of Austria. The reasoning was that it is better to have a new player after the Babensberg's died out, than to allow Bohemia to expand that much.
    edit: I really miss Bohemia from the game

  19. #19
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    Quote Originally Posted by shikaka View Post
    I really miss Bohemia from the game
    So I do. In the SSHIP if anybody takes Prague you'd get a nice message with 15c. Prague pic irrespectively which faction you play.
    You may write the conqueror trait for Prague as well.

  20. #20
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: HUNGARY

    Hungary intro, draft. Feel free to edit it. I tried to keep it short.

    The christian kingdom of Hungary was born exactly in the year 1000 anno domini, when the Pope at that time, Sylvester II sent the Holy Crown to the chivalrious, later beatified and sainted István I, who became the founding member of the ruling dynasty. Acting as the first line of defense against nomadic pagan incursions, promoting catholicism, and converthing heathens, the kingdom of Hungary was considered the most loyal ally of the Papal States.
    However, this has to change. If the kingdom wants to become a regional power, it has to expand it's borders, and it has no chance to do it without shedding christian blood. Wedged into the carpathian basin by Poland and the Holy Roman empire, the situation is made even more complex by the Byzantine empire, who consider kingdom a rightful part of their empire. War seems inevitable.
    No matter which path the kingdom will take, the home regions guarantee that they will act as the first line of defense against other fates, so called the Shield of Christianity. To ensure that this strategic position leads to glory, not to destruction and bloodshed is the task of the player.

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