RUS (Kiev & Novgorod)

[Jurand of Cracow]

I. General information

This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.
The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.

It continues the discussion conducted in this thead.

I've been playing SS6.4 once in a while for several years, but I never noticed the existence of SSHIP.

So I installed it and gave it a try, because I like challeging games and it looks promising with all the historic detail and the character building.
I played England a little to learn the mechanics and I loved the whole game.

So then I started as Novgorod.
Man that was hard (at medium difficulty only): first to get your economy going without a diplomat. I captured two small castles in the west and Polotsk. But then the plague hit me twice and killed my heir, the pagans from the west kept attacked me from west and north and somehow kept blocking my trade routs and killing my income. I fianally got a diplomat (by spending 14000 on buildings). I only can afford one army to beat the pagans. So finally I defeat their army to stop the raids and take Riga, but now my Ally Russia attacks Novgorod all the way on the other side of my kingdom while my army is in Riga.
Nice move!
It's an endless struggle to just get by. One general has won 5 battles, but still has only one star fighting against 5 star generals.

If this is what "ruling a kingdom" was like then, the mod has succeeded.
Great job.

The CTD's happen mostly at the end of the turn cycle, but I can always continue after restart (continue campaign).

[Jurand of Cracow]

II. Strategy & gameplay


To be developed in due course. If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a proposal for this section.

I have an enjoyable Novgorod VH/VH save going without taking the financial aid, currently at around turn 60 I think. I have to admit I had to restart the campaign once with a small alteration to my strategy to get new children earlier, as Novgorod starts with a packed family tree (no, I didn't run any generals to their death haha). I can post a picture tomorrow when I get home.

Here are some things I noticed are quite necessary early on with Novgorod:

- Polotsk is a castle with a decent population, I took it from the rebels as my first deed with the initial armies on turn 3. The rebel army outside usually wanders northwest of the bridge on the very first turn, so you can isolate the siege fight against the garrison army only and deal with the outside army later on. In my second save that army actually wandered towards Riga after I had taken Polotsk, so the Lithuanians had to deal with them.

Once I had a castle and got it under control by building an orthodox church, I built a range to get my hands on those nice Ruthenian archers. My advice is to build the next level of farms there next, because after when they are completed, you can build a landowner building to get a second source of those precious Druzhina cavalry.

- A key difference between my failed campaign and the restart was to take Kolyvan next fairly early on. I think I conquered it at around turn 14. By that time the Lithuanians have usually tried to take it already at least once, which will have weakened the garrison.

Expanding to a fourth settlement aids in two ways: you have a better possibility to get new children, and Lithuania doesn't get to grow their force too much by expanding to four or even five settlements (Kolyvan + Twangste) before you get your economy running.

- Regarding the economy: two buildings in Novgorod are essential to build as soon as possible. I opted for a port first to enable sea trade and quicker movement of troops via the northern coast, and right after built the roads. The latter bring a whopping 600-700 more income from trade, so even though they take 10 years to build, it's definitely worth it.

The two initial merchants you have at the beginning can generate a monster income once trained. I had to make my own house rule to not move them beyond my neighbours or their neighbours (e.g. not to the mines in Prague or the capital of Hungary), but even then they generated a total of 6k/turn at highest when one was at the mines near Krakow and the other one at the slaves near the border of the Kievan Rus and the Cumans. My initial merchants are now in their decline, but in the meantime I've been able to build my economy, and fight the Lithuanians.

- Although the family tree is packed, there's room for making moves. Once I achieved trade rights with Poland and Denmark, I married the first princess to the heir of Denmark for an alliance and to get rid of her from limiting the birth of new children. The princess that comes of age was married to Oleg Chernigovskii. The one general outside the family tree, Gavril Ovin or something, usually dies quite quickly, if you don't let him have any battle commanding experience. These events, combined with expanding to four settlements, made new children pop up for every married general: Vselovod, Svyatoslav and Oleg.

I also made Vselovod and Svyatoslav command at least one battle early on to try to prevent them from acquiring bad traits. After that it was in the hands of fate on when those two would die. I got lucky, and Svyatoslav lived very old, and by then the newborn son of Vselovod had come of age to become the new heir. Vselovod is still kicking as a totally senile old fool with almost ten battles commanded, but I'm guessing his departure is only a matter of turns.

- After I took Polotsk and Kolyvan, the relations with the Lithuanians were already poor, and they attacked soon after in Pleskov and Polotsk before turn 20, maybe at turn 18 or so. I think the war waged for 13 years total (26 turns) before they offered a ceasefire after the Kievan Rus attacked them too. At times this war was very tough, as the Lithuanians could wield quite good armies even with three settlements only, but siege defenses are easier than going on the offense. One or two defenses were so tight I wasn't sure if I would survive, but most of them were under control. Together with the small random rebel armies appearing granted the possibility to get a lot of battle experience for the generals.

At around turn 34 or so I went on the offensive, and took Riga from Lithuania. And as I said, some time later (~10 turns) Lithuania offered a ceasefire because they were occupied elsewhere. The peace wasn't durable though, and they attacked me again already.

- A long war with Lithuania helps you get your repuration high by releasing prisoners most of the time. I've found Kievan Rus won't be backstabby when you have a high reputation, and are at war already with someone else. In my failed campaign I made peace with Lithuania earlier, which made them fight with Poland. With me not being at war for an extended period of time made the Kievan Rus attack in that save at around turn 38 already. In this new campaign we're still allied at turn 60.

- What I've found necessary for successfully defending against Lithuania are watchtowers and spies to let me move my small armies in advance. Once you take Polotsk you get access to a second spy, and while your armies are still small, the merchants start to generate good income + port and roads are built in Novgorod, you'll continuously stay over 20k of wealth, which makes it possible to build up your settlements, replenish armies, and build watchtowers.

- For most field fights against Lithuania two troops are always needed, a general and one unit of Druzhina cavalry. The early infantry of Novgorod is quite bad (barring the dismounted Druzhina, which have too high of an upkeep to make me recruit them), and serves mainly as a wall to enable flanking with heavy cavalry.

In siege defenses the troops are enough to hold the line, because Lithuania seems to prefer attacking Pleskov and Polotsk + occasionally Novgorod. In Pleskov I always let the enemy take the gate, and park my infantry in the middle of the hill. In Polotsk the fight usually takes place at the gate with one junior militia on each side being enough to hold enemy ladder and siege tower units in place for long enough. Novgorod has actually been one of the harder settlements to defend because of the lack of archers, and overall lower garrison, but depending on the size of the attacking army I either try to hold the main gate or withdraw to the narrow streets already before the fight begins.

---

I think Novgorod is currently very doable even with VH/VH and without the financial aid. Very hard, yes, and luck also plays quite a big role in how the campaign unfolds early on.


Edit: here are some pictures. I circled all the watchtowers I've built myself, and there are even three more that didn't make the picture (one to the very east of Novgorod, one southeast of Polotsk, and one to the west of Riga). As the Novgorod settlement details picture shows, building roads and a port (actually already 2nd level of port by that picture) in Novgorod really up the trade income generated by the capital. And the two initial merchants seem to still generate 5,3k/turn it seems. All in all, it does get better quite quickly for Novgorod once you get over the rough start One thing I noticed though is that you've expanded very rapidly, as by turn 14 your realm already consists of the same five settlements that I had only after ~34 turns. Perhaps indeed the economical situation of Novgorod doesn't support such fast expansionism too well in the beginning.

Attachment 369763
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[Jurand of Cracow]

III. Provinces (incl. names, provincial titles, resources, map features etc.)

The provinces that have historically been assigned to this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file.

Provincial titles:
General explanations to be found in the relevant thread on the PTs.
Catholic: "Comes" with Latin names of the provinces, modified if historically justified.
Orthodox: “Knyaz” + name + "skyi". If somebody would collect the historical names, please drop an entry in this thread.
Muslim: generic "Emir".

Names of provinces: I haven't reviewed the names of the provinces at all. I think some adjustments are needed. The Latin names of the titels are also created with limited knowledge, except of the three Rutheniae and Volhynie (well, I consulted the Latin version of Wikipedia).
Coast of arms: have been reviewed and updated to be as historical as possible (but Ryazan).


Volodymyr (Volhynia)
PT: Comes Volhyniae
CoA:
Settlement name: Volodymyr. There was an opinion that it should be changed into Volodimer'. (but I'm not sure if it's rigth - maybe it's only a Russian spelling (as opposite to the Ukrainian).
Province name: Volhynia.

Goroden (Goroden)
PT: Comes Rutheniae Nigrae
CoA:
Settlement name:
Province name:

Halych (Galicia)
PT: Comes Rutheniae Rubrae
CoA: ok (black jackdaw in the white field).
Settlement name: Halych. In the late era: Lviv (founded 1251, set as capital of the region 1272). There was an opinion that it should be changed to Galich' but I think it's a Russian spelling (as opposite to the Ukrainian).
Province name: Galicia.
Resources: this rich province has access to salt, ...
Halych was in the sphere of interests of at least 4 SSHIP factions: Rus (Kiev, then Principality of Halych-Volodymyr), Hungary (eg. II. Andras was the "king" here in 13th century, and also in early 14th c. it was under suzerainty of the Hungarian kings), Poland (took over in mid-14th century and became an integral part of the kingdom for hundred of years), and to a lesser extend of the Cumans (as being on the outskirts of the steppes).

Turov (Turov)
PT: Comes Turoviae
CoA:
Settlement name: Turov.
Province name: Turov.

Polotsk (Polotsk)
PT: Comes Rutheniae Albae
CoA: I've got major doubts if the current CoA (a boat) is the right one.
Settlement name: Polotsk.
Province name:

Novgorod (Novgorod)
PT: Dux Novogardiensis
CoA: check and replaced with the correct version from 14th century.
Settlement name:
Province name:

Pleskov (Pskov)
PT: Comes Pscoviae
CoA:
Settlement name: Pleskov (local one, pertinent to the 12th century), later eras Pskov - the Slavic one.
Province name:
Creator of this settlement should be Lithuania as the locals were not Slavs, but the locals. Even the name Pleskow suggests it (the slavic one is Pskov).

Chernigov (Chernigov)
PT: Comes Czernihoviae
CoA:
Settlement name: Chernigov
Province name: Chernigov

Kyev (Kyev)
PT: Dux Kioviensis
CoA:
Settlement name:
Province name:

Pereyaslav (Pereyaslav)
PT: Comes Pereaslaviae
CoA:
Settlement name: changed into Pereyaslavl'
Province name:

Smolensk (Smolensk)
PT: Dux Smolenscensis
CoA:
Settlement name: changed into Smolenesk
Province name:


Rustov (Rustov)
PT: Comes Rostoviae -> should be changed into Comes Suzdalensis
CoA:
Settlement name: should be changed to Suzdal
Province name: should be changed to Volodymyr-Suzdal or rather Zalesye (see here).

In 1132 the main settlement of this region should be Suzdal. Then it should be moved to in 2nd part of 12th century to Volodymyr.
Suzdal province was on the border of Rus expansion that started just in the previous century. It was a principality but weak as far as population is concerned.

Suzdal (Suzdal)
PT: Comes Suzdalensis -> should be changed into Comes Muromiensis or Ryazanensis
CoA:
Settlement name: Suzdal -> should be restored to Murom (as it was before), but later to Ryazan.
Province name: Murom.

This province should the province between Volodymyr-Suzdal and Volgha Bulghars. The people of Murom still lived in this area and it should be renamed accordingly.
Furthermore, the size of the settlement should be tiny: a village with nothing inside.



Ryazan (Ryazan)
PT: Comes Resaniae
CoA:
Settlement name: changed into Ryazan'
Province name:

[Jurand of Cracow]

IV. Faction specific features

The Crown of Russia is discussed in this entry. The map is below. It is shared by both factions.

The Offices are described in this thread (only generic offices).

There are special books for the Rus factions (see here).

Kiev has access to some buildings that may be not available to every faction. In particular, there is a wonder in Kiev that's essential for the faction and there is a chain of buildings Rus Monasteries.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Unique buildings for Novgorod:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kiev / Novogorod Blood: details not checked. It should be shared with Novgorod but for now two bloods exist.

Specific traits: not checked.

[Jurand of Cracow]

V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)

The situation in Kiev in 1132 was very complicated and the problems of keeping the ruling lands together under one Knyaz were abundant. And in this very year he died. One needs to review the situation and to adjust the "usuper" triggers, or maybe make the starting situation after the death of the ruler, with some provinces independent.

[Jurand of Cracow]

VI. Units

There's too many Axe units. Historically, small axes were secondary weapon (instead of swords, that were too expensive), while big axes were very rare. Big axes should predominantly be mercenary units. These were guys making breakthroughts in the battles.

Possibilities for changes:

I think that for the next version, it would be better to replace the mercenary spearmen unit with the slav spearmen/eastern spearmen in the Rus lands as mercenaries, since the mercenary spearmen have a more westernized model.
For steppe areas you could include AOR units such as the steppe infantry and Cuman mounted warband, so that these steppe units can be recruited if you control these areas.

Finally, I noticed the Serbians got a unit, Slavic Levy, that isn't used by the Russians. It could probably be copied over with some adjustments to name and replace the Junior Militia, freeing up one unit slot.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Here are my remarks from the initial unit rosters of Norway, Lithuania, and Novgorod from early game experience (mostly ~50 first turns). These are from the August version with VH/VH. I've played without the financial aid, so the unit recruitment & upkeep cost discussions might very well be different, if playing with financial aid on.
Novgorod

Initial armies

No need to discard any troops on Novgorod either. The initial armies are just enough to siege the castle southwest early on.

Initial unit roster

- By far the strongest unit roster out of these three.
- Druzhina make for an excellent heavy cavalry that together with bodyguards can win you battles against bigger Lithuanian armies with many heavy infantry units.
- Dismounted druzhina on the other hand I recruit very rarely in early game; they aren't simply needed for their upkeep cost.
- The hardest part of managing a Novgorodian army is definitely countering enemy cavalry, as junior militia doesn't have a bonus against cavalry. Actually, they're only good for taking the heaviest hits of enemy infantry too, but they die quite quickly against them too. The recruitment & upkeep cost feels a bit high when taking this into account, but then again, money doesn't seem to be an issue with Novgorod once you get your economy running, so it's just pennies to recruit costly junior militias.
- As a matter of fact, once the roads are built in Novgorod, and once you get the merchant from the Baltic shore to the mines at Prague, you get such a high income that you can recruit basically whatever you want, even when building up all three settlements at the same time. At turn ~40 that single merchant alone made me ~6,5-8k per turn, while the other merchant trading slaves in Kievan Rus' lands made "only" like 1,5k.
- But back to the unit roster: the senior militia are of course the solution to enemy cavalry, but unfortunately they are scarce to recruit, and it's hard to move them from Novgorod to other settlements. Once you get to build up the other city and the one castle, it gets easier. It actually gets way more easier, as when you upgrade both of the settlements, you get landowner units = druzhina cavalry from all three settlements. Until that, Lithuania can at times pose a very serious threat against those settlements.
- Fortunately for Novgorod, chudes are available, and with a strong economy, their high recruitment cost doesn't feel at all. I was constantly missing funds, and at turns 40-50 every now and then there was even the embezzlement event (-10k from treasury), which means I was constantly accumulating over 40k into the treasury, even when building constantly & wielding strong enough armies to keep Lithuania at bay & discouraging Kievan Rus to betray the alliance. Perhaps it would've changed after all the initial bonuses for the player against the AI had gone as the game progressed, but then, releasing Lithuanians made the reputation trustworthy.
- Ruthenian archers are a good archer unit available quite early from the castle after conquering it, and building a bowyer. Hunters and levy archers I recruited just minimally to supplement the slow replenishment of Ruthenian archers.
- Woodsmen are useful. They're cheap, have a bonus against cavalry & armour, and they also get an armour bonus once you build the smiths building line in the castle. Slavic axemen on the other hand feel a bit too costly for their stats and low availability, but as money wasn't an issue, why not recruit them too.
- Mounted sergeants & Slavic javelinmen were simply never needed. Druzhina cavalry are far superior than mounted sergeants, and the javelinmen have so high of a recruitment cost that there's little point to recruit them, as there are enough other units to recruit for defense.

@Goffredo85 : Thank you for your support. Here is a redesign of the EE Spear Militia for their 3 levels (here for the Russians from kyiv)

[Jurand of Cracow]

VIII. Reserve

to be used if needed

[Lurker from Codex]

Sorry if I'm being annoying lately, but there are numerous historical mistakes regarding Novgorod that need to be rectified. I'm actually surprised by the amount of detail you gave to minor characters like Vasilko Sviatoslavich (independent general guarding Polotsk), but made so many mistakes in actual playable faction. Feels even more weird that you did everything right with Kievan Rus, as if the research for KR and Novgorod was done by different people. Anyway, here goes:

1. A typo in faction leader's name (he was Vsevolod, not Vselovod)
2. The game starts at 1132. Vsevolod was 29, not 44.
3. Svyatoslav Olgovich was actually younger than Vsevolod, not older. He was 25 at 1132, not 50.
4. Oleg Olgovich, son of Svyatoslav, wasn't even born in 1132. He was born in 1137.
5. Vsevolod's wife is named Svyatoslava Chernigovskii..? Okay, this one deserves a separate paragraph.

The ONLY thing we know about Vsevolod's wife is her father. His name was Svyatoslav Chernigovskii. He was quite an important historical figure, but nothing is known about his daughter: not her name, not her age, only the fact she was married to Vsevolod Mstislavich. I need to stress it out: SHE was married to Vsevolod, not HER FATHER. Russian wiki says her name was probably Anna, but I failed to find the source. Might as well be Anna for all I care. Anything but Svyatoslava Chernigovskii.

6. In the game Vsevolod has two children: Ivan and Vysheslava. Ivan is dead (which is true, he died in 1128). Vsevolod lost another child in 1128 - his daughter Anna (Yanka), she died as a baby just like Ivan. But that's not important. Vysheslava is 7 at the start of the game, which is surprisingly accurate given you made Vsevolod 44 years old. Your spelling of her name is slightly surprising - I found numerous versions of it(Viacheslava, Verhuslava, Wierzchoslawa), but not a single mention of Vysheslava. And okay, I can see where this is coming from - not crucial.

But what about Vladimir? Vsevolod had two sons: Ivan who died in 1128 and Vladimir who was held hostage by Novgorodians during the events of 1136, when Novgorod became a republic. Vladimir played a crucial role during the exile of Vsevolod, they nominated this little boy as Prince of Novgorod right after exiling his father (basically an excuse to hold young Vladimir as a hostage).

The exact birth date of Vladimir is unknown, but we know that he was underaged for the role of Prince of Novgorod. Maybe make him 8 or 9 years old at the start of the game?

7. This is a suggestion. Oleg Olgovich needs to go, he doesn't belong to 1132. Why don't you replace him with Sviatopolk Mstislavich? He is the son of Mstislav Monomakh (faction leader of Kievan Rus) and Vsevolod's younger brother. Mstislav had many children, including four sons (well, SIX if we count his second marriege, but let's not): Vsevolod (faction leader of Novgorod), Iziaslav (playable general of Kievan Rus), Rostislav (playable general of Kievan Rus), and Sviatopolk (not represented in the game). Sviatopolk was actually a Prince of Novgorod for a short while. I believe he was Novgorod's faction leader either in SS 6.4 or Titanium submod. He would definitetely fit better than Oleg Olgovich.

8. Pskov wasn't really a part of Novgorod Republic until 1136, it was an independent state. In fact, there was no Novgorod Republic until 1136. Also, do you have to name it Pleskov..? I know it was called like that in 903 (or rather mentioned as Pleskov in archaic piece of literature "Povest Vremennih Let" that was written in 903). But there is no reason to keep it named Pleskov in 1132.

I thought of providing links to the info, but I only used Russian sources. Tell me if you need them. English ones are very lacking on the Russian history.

[Lurker from Codex]

CoA: I've got major doubts if the current CoA (a ship) is right.

You are right to have doubts. Current CoA of Polotsk (a shield with a depiction of a ship sailing on silver waves) was established in 1498. I believe there was no CoA to speak of before then.

However, Iziaslav Vladimirovich (Knyaz of Polotosk) had a Seal that looks like this:



No idea what is it supposed to be. The current CoA (ship) looks good. I believe this is the case you'd better be ahistorical.

[Lifthrasir]

Following the original discussion about the Rus titles, here is my summary (I can be wrong through ):

1. For Kievan Rus: Faction's name should be: Kyev'skaya Zemlya

Use traits or retinue (or something like this):
Ryurikovich' - for all members of family
Knyaz' X'skyi - for each male member of family (who have trait Ryurikovich') who is governor of town X
Posadnik X'skyi - for each ordinary general who is governor of town X

Use word Knyazhich' for Heir, and Dotzi Knyazha for Princess. Use word Voevoda for each ordinary general (if at all necessary), Tysyach'skyi for Captain.

2. For Novgorod: Faction's name should be:Novgorodskaya Zemlya

If we really want and manage to represent the republican system of Novgorod, then it would be Posadnik X'skyi (each family member/general who is governor of town X) and no Heir system.

If we go for a monarchical system (easier but inaccurate), then it would be similar as for the Kievan Rus.
On top of this:

You should keep in mind that all the feuds and fights and intrigues that troubled every country on earth are not, and cannot be represented in MIITW.
Therefore, you shouldn't try to hard to implement it (unless you do so with some scripts, which would be totally awesome!), because no political figures can be shown in the game.
Novgorod still had princes, who led them to battle. They were just less powerful than those in other cities, as the citizens were much richer than elsewhere, and therefore more capable of challenging the sovereign. In principle, it could have happened in any town and anywhere.

I'm quite "annoyed" about what to do with Novgorod tbh

Edit: Anyone able to translate the legend for the different symbols below? Many thanks in advance

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Lurker from Codex]

1. For Kievan Rus: Faction's name should be: Kyev'skaya Zemlya

I don't think that's necessary. Technically, Mstislav Monomakh (faction leader of Kievan Rus) is still alive at the start of the game. IRL he died in 1132 - that's when Kievan Rus was broken in separate entities, and lands around Kiev became known as Киевское Кяжество (Kyev'skoye Knyazhestvo). This map is from around 1160, but it represents more or less accurate what happened after Mstislav Monomakh's death:

If we really want and manage to represent the republican system of Novgorod

Yes, but should you? Again, Novgorod wasn't a republic at 1132. Vsevolod Mstislavich was appointed as Knyaz by his father, Vladimir Monomakh. Only when he was exiled by Novgorodians in 1136 (call it a revolution of sorts) the nation became a proper republic, with Veche (sort of city council) electing their ruler. Which wasn't really an election, but that's not the point.

As I see it, at the start of the game the player is given the opportunity to hold monarchical system in Novgorod, preventing it from becoming a republic. Also, I dimly remember playing some mod where Veche system was implemented. Was it Titanium..? Or maybe some previous version of SSHIP?

I'm quite "annoyed" about what to do with Novgorod tbh

I would honestly leave it as it is in term of faction ruler - heir system.

Anyone able to translate the legend for the different symbols below?

No prob. The word "знак" in this context can be used as both sign, sigil, or seal. I'll just say sign, but it might be any of that.

Picture name: "Signs or Rurikovichi"

1 - Sign on a brick of Church of the Tithes.
2-5 - Signs on the coins of Vladimir Sviatoslavich.
6 - Coin of Vladimir Sviatoslavich with a sign.
7 - Sign on one of the most ancient seals.
8 - Coin of Yaroslav the Wise with a sing of Rurikovichi.
9 - Sign on an amulet, published by T.Arne.
10 - Sign on Stockholm's exhibit of Yaroslav's silver.
11, 12 - Ancestral signs of Knyaz's.

[Lifthrasir]

Unfortunately, there's no so many options to represent the Kievan Rus realm collapse in an accurate way in game

Anyway, I'm fine to keep a monarchial system for Novgorod. Should we implement the same "Ryurikovich' trait for that faction as well?

And many thanks for the translation. +rep as soon as I can

[Lurker from Codex]

Should we implement the same "Ryurikovich' trait for that faction as well?

It's basically one family. I don't know if it's possible to combine them all under one family tree, but if it is - that would be grand. Make Vsevolod (faction leader of Novgorod) son of Mstislav (faction leader of Kievan Rus).

As for the trait itself, well, don't we have "Of Novgorodian Blood" and "Of Kievan Blood" already? Maybe you should simply change the description of these traits? The current ones are sketchy.

Of Kievan Blood:

This man is a descendant of Vsevolod Yaroslavich, a very powerful Kievan monarch. His pride is quite understandable, and is said to be reflected in his devotion to the dynasty.

Of Novgorodian Blood:

This man is a descendant of Ysevolod I, the main figurine of the Republic. His pride is quite understandable, and is said to be reflected in his devotion to the dynasty.

Okay, Vsevolod I and Vsevolod Yaroslavich WAS THE SAME PERSON. Not only his name is spelled wrong in Novgorodian description (the name "Ysevolod" doesn't exist - it's Vsevolod), I honestly doesn't see any point in making these bloodlines separate. It's one family. Mstislav Monomakh was the grandson of Vsevolod I, and Vsevolod Mstislavich was his grand-grandson.

And they are ALL Rurikovichi.

[Lifthrasir]

Again, I agree with you about the blood lines which should both have the same origin. Thanks again for the info/confirmation. I'll look at how to represent that in their family tree

But we still need to make some differences between both factions for the gameplay. What about to focuse Novgorod roster more on infantry units (and possibly archery one) while Kievan one would focuse more on cavalry (and possibly some spearmen)? The idea behind this is to represent the fact that Kievan faces Cumans while Novgorod would face Lithuania and Poland a bit later, possibly the Norses as well. Then, it is also possible to add a crown benefit, something like if the player manage to gather both factions under one ruler, then he gets access to both rosters

[Lurker from Codex]

What about to focuse Novgorod roster more on infantry units (and possibly archery one) while Kievan one would focuse more on cavalry (and possibly some spearmen)?

Let's not forget Novgorod has access to the Baltic Sea, and Kievan Rus doesn't. Novgorod has its national ships (Lad'ya and Holks), that should count for something. Agree with your take on cavalry - there is no reason for Novgorod to have access to Pecheneg units (light horse archers, you can recruit them in Kolyvan and Goroden at the moment - castles you can easily grab early on as Novgorod).

Let me just re-use my map:

Blue circle is Novgorod.
Red circle is Kiev.
Brown is the steppes where Pechenegs hanged out. Yes, they raided Rus lands, but Novgorod is WAY too far. Especially since we're talking 1132. Anna Komnena stated that ALL Pechenegs died in battle of 1091, when combined forces of Byzantium and Polotsk genocided not only man-warriors of Pechenegs, but also their women and children.

So if you include them in the game, I suggest making them very rare, maybe restricted to Kievan Rus territories. From gameplay perspective, early access to Pechenegs makes Novgorod campaign much easier. Novgorod doesn't have any skirmisher units or light cavalry until they build/capture a fortress, where they can recruit Junior Druzhina - a very expensive and slow-to-amass horse archer unit. Until then, it's always a struggle to harass enemy forces and break their formations.

Novgorod should fight like a slow, cumbersome bear. So this:

focuse Novgorod roster more on infantry units (and possibly archery one)

This will work for both flavor and gameplay.

Then, it is also possible to add a crown benefit, something like if the player manage to gather both factions under one ruler, then he gets access to both rosters

Is it even possible? In any case, I would rather see the mod ironed out in terms of stability/bugs/historical accuracy. New features are always great to have, but being able to play and to be engaged in the game comes first, I think.

[Lifthrasir]

Is it even possible? In any case, I would rather see the mod ironed out in terms of stability/bugs/historical accuracy. New features are always great to have, but being able to play and to be engaged in the game comes first, I think.

Yes, it's possible to introduce such feature. But, agree, that's not priority for now.

Edit: About a possible change of the Novgorod faction's symbol, I've found these:


Novgorod seal from AD 1096 to 1113.


Novgorod seal from AD 1117 to 1136. The image on the left side is of the Annunciation by angel Gabriel to the Virgin Mary.


Novgorod seal from AD 1210 to 1218.

I'm wondering if that guy with a spear and shield is not a representation of Saint Theodore Stratilates

[Lurker from Codex]

Edit: About a possible change of the Novgorod faction's symbol, I've found these:

Why would you want to change its faction symbol? This will be a painful road. Seems like you're planning to pick one of Novgorod's seals, which makes sense. Russian academic V.L.Yanin in his work "Seals of Rus X-XV centuries" (might be translating the name wrong, it's called "Актовые печати Древней Руси X-XV вв.") pointed out that there were five depictions on different seals of Novgorod until the end of XV century:
- Спас Вседержитель (Pantokrator aka Jesus Christ)
- Foot soldier with a spear
- Mounted soldier
- Beast (most likely a lion)
- Sitting bird (most likely an eagle)

Yanin speculated these emblems represent five main districts of Novgorod with a tendency to unite into a singular Coat of Arms if given a chance. Then Ivan the Terrible happened. It was he who designed Novgorod's seal:



Which later became official Coat of Arms, present to this day.



Personally, I'm fine with the current symbol (white orthodox cross on blue background) - it's both neutral and fitting. Technically, Novgorod in 1132 was a part of Kievan Rus. Not even a vassal nation, but a part of it. Which is mentioned in Novgorod's ingame description:

While still technically a part of Kievan Rus, Novgorod has been growing more and more independent from the power of the Kievan throne as disputes over the right to rule Kiev threaten to engulf the Rus.

I see no problem with leaving this fictional emblem as Novgorod's faction symbol. Speaking of nation descriptions, here is another excerpt:

Novgorod’s strength comes from its importance as a rich centre of trade. Situated astride the River Volkhov, Novgorod is the gateway to the river trade routes from the Baltic to Constantinople and beyond.

This is so true. And yet the game does NOT represent this in any way. Novgorod's main strength, it's financial/trading might, came from both its access to the Baltic Sea AND from the rivers leading straight to the Black Sea (Byzantium). Did you know that Rus people actually sucessfuly raided Constantinople with 200 ships coming from the Black Sea? It was in 860, before Rus became christians.

My point is, the main strategical difference between Novgorod and the rest of Rus lands is it's Baltic Sea -Volhov River connection. Let me use a screenie from Crusader Kings 2:



Volhov doesn't simply run somewhere near Novgorod. The river runs straight through the city:



In Crusader Kings 2 it's totally possible to sail straight to Constantinople and pillage the hell out of it.



But we're talking 1132, the time of trade. Most valuable trade resources (for Novgorod, I mean) are located in Byzantium (spices and silk). However, it takes FOREVER for merchants to travel there on foot.

Do you think it's possible to make a river connection between Novgorod and Constantinople via some map editing? No pressure, though. Just throwing ideas for future releases.

[Lifthrasir]

I'm just talking about the faction's symbol, not the banners. So, actually, that's not so compicated to do. The actual symbol for Novgorod is based on an old representation of cavalry banners from the 15th century.
The one you're showing is from Ivan the Terrible and used during the 16th century.

We both agree that Novgorod and Kievan Rus are from the same lineage. The symbol of the Kievan Rus is based on the old Bosporus Tamga on which they add a cross when they became christians. Originally, that symbol is a representation of the absolute power. The other fact to consider is that during the 12th century, each Riurikid princes still tended to have their own mark/symbol also called znaki (if I'm not mistaken).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm pretty sure that Vsevolod used a similar symbol but I can't find any evidence. I don't pretend to be a specialist and I can be wrong of course. Anyway, I'm still looking for more info

Regarding rivers, the only option I can see would be to use navigable rivers, something I'm against to.

[Lurker from Codex]

I'm just talking about the faction's symbol, not the banners. So, actually, that's not so compicated to do. The actual symbol for Novgorod is based on an old representation of cavalry banners from the 15th century.

I'm sorry, I don't follow. I thought you were talking about this:



If that is the case, I stand by my previous opinion.

Personally, I'm fine with the current symbol (white orthodox cross on blue background) - it's both neutral and fitting.

Crusader Kings 2 use a somewhat similiar symbol for Novgorod:

But if you mean some other symbol, where in the game can I see it?

I'm pretty sure that Vsevolod used a similar symbol but I can't find any evidence.

Modern archeologists managed to find Vsevolod's seal under Zelenograd.

each Riurikid princes still tended to have their own mark/symbol also called znaki (if I'm not mistaken).

True, but these znaki didn't always look like weird slavic runes. Sometimes they were indeed depictions of various saints. Or something else entirely.

What we DO know for certain from the works of Yanin and Beletskiy, every Knyaz used his znak (sign, insignia) on the trade seals. Here are some examples of trade seals from medieval period:





See, it wasn't always a rune.

[Lifthrasir]

my bad. Looking through all thezse symbols made me confused. The one I was refering to is the original M2TW symbol for Russia which is as below:



I have no idea about the origin of the actual one in SSHIP.

Anyway, I,agree with you that Saints start to appear apparently from the end of the 11th century. Hence my mention of Saint Theodore Stratilates for that represetation of that guy with a spear and shield, representation we can also see in the Vsevolod's seal you posted above (the right one). That guy (or Saint) already appeared on Yaroslave the Wise coins (on the left):



About the "runes", the personal badge of Yaroslav the Wise on the belt plaques found in Ladoga and in the vicinity of Suzdal almost completely coincides with that depicted on the belt set from the Pereshchepino treasure of the Poltava region, made in the 7th-8th centuries in the Middle Black Sea region. Both that, and another image reminds a trident in the form. Similar signs (two-prongs and tridents) were widely used on the territory of the Khazar Kaganate as symbols of the supreme power - they were tamgas of the ruling clans. This was a continuation of the Sarmatian-Alan tradition of using such signs, dating back to the time of the Bosporus kingdom.
But I'm disgressing a bit here

Back on topic, Mstislav I of Kiev or the Great (father of Vsevolod) had a seal representing a Saint spearing a dragon. The source I've read says that depending on the dynastic orientation, it could be Saint George or Saint Theodore.



I think we both agree about the evolution of seals, coins and other symbols used by the Rurik dynasty. but we can't say for sure what was the one used by Novgorod. So yes, for now, we'll keep the actual one