LITHUANIA

[QKuhlmann]

Can you tell me, if and how it is possible to convert to christianity as Lithuania in SSHIP? I am thinking about starting a campaign with them, but it would be essential for me, that I have the option to convert after some time. Thank you very much in advance!

[Jurand of Cracow]

Can you tell me, if and how it is possible to convert to christianity as Lithuania in SSHIP? I am thinking about starting a campaign with them, but it would be essential for me, that I have the option to convert after some time. Thank you very much in advance!

We are sorry but it's not possible. It's a great project for a submod, and maybe in SSHIP post-2.0 somebody would do it (I don't say "we" because the SSHIP team has a great custom to pass the project leader from one moder to another, so I hope it would be someboedy else taking the baton from me when I got tired like Fair Prince and Lifthrasir and I fade away to Valinor).

For the moment, the Pagan Priests for Lithuania should behave better than before, and the recruitment was a bit (but only a bit) fixed, and the starting position provide for slightly less difficult situation, with many units in the recruitment pool. I've introduced two historical events (Mindaugas and Pagan Empire) but I'd do more for the next version.

[QKuhlmann]

Thank you very much for the information!

[RodriguesSting]

Well, impossible? Not quite, there's plenty of factions in EBII that can change their "religion" (culture there) which allows or disallows certain buildings. However, Catholicism is not only that. Would that even allow an papal college interface? No idea. Orthodox would be easier but... they didn't convert to Orthodox, did they?

Lithuania is still an interesting faction, though, firstly for being the last European pagans, secondly for being right in the heartlands of the Hanseatic republic, and being right in the frontier of two Christianities.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Well, impossible? Not quite, there's plenty of factions in EBII that can change their "religion" (culture there) which allows or disallows certain buildings. However, Catholicism is not only that. Would that even allow an papal college interface? No idea. Orthodox would be easier but... they didn't convert to Orthodox, did they?

Lithuania is still an interesting faction, though, firstly for being the last European pagans, secondly for being right in the heartlands of the Hanseatic republic, and being right in the frontier of two Christianities.

It's possible to mod it, but currently in the SSHIP it's not there, so it's not possible to convert.

I find Lithuania much more interesting to play if they stay pagan B-)

[RodriguesSting]

It's possible to mod it, but currently in the SSHIP it's not there, so it's not possible to convert.

I find Lithuania much more interesting to play if they stay pagan B-)

Word, specially if they get some reforms and some more traits. Pagans should totally get some special stuff for fighting off crusades and/or jihads.

[RodriguesSting]

So, playing them, I realized how absolutely overwhelming the Giltine Chosen are on a strategic level.

Tactically, they are, by far, your best troops on early game. Considering they are scary, fairly well armored (still behind Bardiches and Knights, and can't even upgrade quick), hit like a truck shipping hatchets, got a decent unit size, and are well armored, these guys could be the core of your army, right?

Wrong.

They will be your army.

Castles can pool up to 2 Holy Warriors, and can replenish one at every 4 turns. Giltine shrines can be built on Motte & Baileys, the lowest level of castle. And finally, in your terribly poor Baltic region, every single one of your settlements would be a fantastic temporary or permanent castle.

So I mean, every single one of your settlements can produce 1 Chosen every 4 turns, by no upfront cost, and a very reasonable upkeep considering the effectiveness of the unit. You got at least 5, counting your capital, that are easy to take and can (and being as strategically efficient as possible, should) be converted into castles and start pumping out these beasts for you.

So in conclusion... I honestly think they should either be nerfed or locked behind an event or era. Take the Council (that you apparently can't build but sure can take over) units, Chieftains and Ducal Horsemen. These guys are meant to be your very top dogs on the early era, tribal warriors with some looted armor. They are adequate, and cost effective, a good upgrade over your usual Tribal Axemen and Spearmen (mostly the Spearmen, nice units, great garrisons, but I take quality over quantity), and rendered completely pointless by your temple troops. Fanatics are the weakest of the lot, pretty great offensive troops (not even close to Chosen though), but the major benefit is their temple that give health to the settlement. Chosen I already mentioned. Dievas offers pretty decent horse archers (that you can slowly recruit from Castles otherwise). You just don't have to touch your early game mid tier Ducal and such units, because honestly, temples can give you everything you need.

Finally, I would like to report that, for some reason, Lithuanians can get at least Soldier Training from battlefield experience. I also think it would be interesting if they could get at least one level of special "civilized" education from Schools and Libraries from taken settlements (could offer some economic bonuses at the price of losing some piety, loyalty, and morale).

[Jurand of Cracow]

Ok, @Rodrigues, I've got some time to use your observations.

Gitine Chosen - very interesting piece. I've nerfed outright their recruitment a bit, but it should indeed balanced later.

recruit_pool "Giltines Chosen" 1 0.17 2 0 requires factions { lithuania, } and hidden_resource lithuania
recruit_pool "Giltines Chosen" 1 0.11 2 0 requires factions { lithuania, } and not hidden_resource lithuania


Soldier Training - the Pagans get pagan training that encompasses both military and governor education:

{INFO_EDUCATION_PAGAN_BODY}\nPagan Education provides Qipchaq, Mongol, and Lithuanian generals with valuable military and administrative skills. It has four levels: Basic, Standard, Advanced, and Master. Pagan generals receive their education as teenagers by studying (i.e. spending a few whole turns) in settlements where shrines are present: altars, sanctuaries, and temples (the bigger, the better). Alternatively, staying in the wild (i.e. spending a few whole turns) may also provide some education (though not as much as that available by proper study in a settlement). The higher levels of education are acquired easier by generals who are administratively-minded or those with natural military skills (i.e. those with the trait "Born to Command" or "Born Conqueror"). Keep in mind that all pagan generals (especially militarily-minded ones) can get the same knowledge by fighting battles!
{INFO_EDUCATION_PAGAN_TITLE}Pagan Education

[RodriguesSting]

Soldier Training - the Pagans get pagan training that encompasses both military and governor education:

Therefore getting soldier training from battlefield experience is an oversight and the triggers should be revised.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Therefore getting soldier training from battlefield experience is an oversight and the triggers should be revised.

Have you got soldier training? I think the pagans can get only pagan training.

[RodriguesSting]

Yes I have, it's part of the report. Alongside the suggestion of them getting *something* out of schools and universities, or at least giving more non-religion-restricted triggers to get some educated traits. Also, they also do not have the castle libraries, which is fair, but perhaps some of the triggers and rewards from castle library should be adapted and transferred to the castle shrines so they don't lag behind too much like the Orthodox.

PS: Also, all troops (with the exception of Prussians) out of temples have the same replenishment rate. That means, taking down the Chosen, you can them spam Fanatics instead. Which is not bad, as they are not very survivable troops. Problem is, the same can be done to the horse archers and, then, Dievas Guard.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yes I have, it's part of the report. Alongside the suggestion of them getting *something* out of schools and universities, or at least giving more non-religion-restricted triggers to get some educated traits. Also, they also do not have the castle libraries, which is fair, but perhaps some of the triggers and rewards from castle library should be adapted and transferred to the castle shrines so they don't lag behind too much like the Orthodox.

PS: Also, all troops (with the exception of Prussians) out of temples have the same replenishment rate. That means, taking down the Chosen, you can them spam Fanatics instead. Which is not bad, as they are not very survivable troops. Problem is, the same can be done to the horse archers and, then, Dievas Guard.

Ok, thanks a lot for this insights - I've corrected the triggers in this respect. Will be included in the mod in the next issue (perhaps 098).

However, the benefits of schools are not for pagans - they draw their own benefits from the temples.

Dievas Guard: it should not be available until Mindaugas event, ie for 200 turns?

building temple_dievas_castle{
  convert_to temple_dievas
  religion pagan
  levels c_dievas_altar
  {
    c_dievas_altar castle requires factions { lithuania, }  and not building_present temple_giltine_castle and not building_present temple_perkunas_castle and not building_present temple_tengir_castle
    {
      convert_to 0
      capability
      {
        religion_level bonus 1 requires factions { lithuania, }
        law_bonus bonus 2
        happiness_bonus bonus 4


        agent priest  0  requires factions { lithuania, }	
        agent_limit priest 0	
        agent_limit priest 1 requires factions { lithuania, }


        agent diplomat  0  requires factions { lithuania, }	and event_counter LITHUANIAN_EMPIRE 1
        agent_limit diplomat 0	
        agent_limit diplomat 1 requires factions { lithuania, } and event_counter LITHUANIAN_EMPIRE 1
		
		recruit_pool "Lithuanian Cavalry"	                1	0.17   2	2  requires factions { lithuania, } and not event_counter MINDAUGAS 1		
                recruit_pool "Dievas Guard"			1   	0.17   2	2  requires factions { lithuania, } and event_counter MINDAUGAS 1

[RodriguesSting]

However, the benefits of schools are not for pagans - they draw their own benefits from the temples.

I understand that, I just thought it would be a neat side-effect of capturing high level non-pagan settlements and drawing some sort of strategic benefit out of the facilities there, be city schools or castle libraries.

Dievas Guard: it should not be available until Mindaugas event, ie for 200 turns?

Indeed, but the thing you should perhaps consider is to review their replenishment rates. Imagine getting one of these guys every 4 turns out of every castle? Maybe the replenishment rate of all temple troops (except, once again, the Prussian Axemen, I think they're okay) should be reviewed to not render your tribal recruitment completely pointless.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Yeah, this should be a part of the thorough overhaul of Lithuania.

I see the following issues should be taken into consideration:
- the roster should be reviewed according to the discussion and further insights (perhaps no new units - unless kostic comes with something new, but maybe stats and prices);
- the temples benefits should be reviewed taking into account 1. character of the gods (Dievas and Perkunas (good) - should not award Dread, Gilitine (evil goddess) should not give Chivalry), 2. trade-offs between them (some should give units but the other should give public order or something);
- the balance of recruitment between regular recruitment and temples' recruitment;
- the potential benefits from conquering the other religions' buildings (eg. schools, libraries, tourney fields, bimaristans);
- the whole logic of having a pagan nation: how would we see it evolving with size? Historically, Lithuania was Orthodox in 14c. but at the end it converted to Catholicism. In the SSHIP we assume they'd stay pagan - so how it would look like?

I think this would be done after SSHIP 1.0 version is published. I would foresee a review of all the buildings at that time. For the moment we're trying to eradicate all the crashes and to finish some plans (eg. scripting the Mongols better). Of course, the biggest changes will come with the @kostic work - the KCC will be implemented, and this has consequences also for Lithuania.

[RodriguesSting]

- the whole logic of having a pagan nation: how would we see it evolving with size? Historically, Lithuania was Orthodox in 14c. but at the end it converted to Catholicism. In the SSHIP we assume they'd stay pagan - so how it would look like?

Interesting that you mention them becoming Orthodox because I assume that's a far easier change to pull out than becoming Catholic. No papal interface to worry about. Furthermore, they would become Catholic only when they lose to the Teutonics, while, arguably, going Orthodox would be a much more organic change.

[riesucius]

Lithuanian roster is more of a fantasy inspired pagan metalhead wet dream. Many units, like mentioned at the start of this thread, are inaccurate. Actually, the units are inaccurate themselves, so change their names or not, they will remain to be so.

Like the question above mentions, how are we supposed to determine what kind of faction Lithuania is? Historically, as time went, it became more of a multi-ethnic state, mixing all the cultures and military ideas together. I think its the best path to follow and i could explain why, but for now, i see the roster as it is, which is very hard to fix, would take too much time, so lets leave it like that.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Lithuanian roster is more of a fantasy inspired pagan metalhead wet dream. Many units, like mentioned at the start of this thread, are inaccurate. Actually, the units are inaccurate themselves, so change their names or not, they will remain to be so.

Like the question above mentions, how are we supposed to determine what kind of faction Lithuania is? Historically, as time went, it became more of a multi-ethnic state, mixing all the cultures and military ideas together. I think its the best path to follow and i could explain why, but for now, i see the roster as it is, which is very hard to fix, would take too much time, so lets leave it like that.

All is true - but the conclusion. Let's move a bit away from the wet dreams towards what could be acceptable for a historian.

[riesucius]

For what is acceptable for historian, is not acceptable for modder.


This, for example. Lets ignore the weaponary and everything, but just look at the aesthetics. Looks nothing like a real thing. I don't understand why are there so many leather tunics / coats whatever, when in arcaheology, when leather is found in baltic graves, it is mostly shoes, bags, bridles and so on. Lithuanians wore iron age style clothing in earlier periods, mostly.

One of the reconstructions, from national lithuanian culture center. Wool, linen, i guess, not leather and furs.


Another thing is armor and weapons. When the mod starts, lithuanians and other balts have phased out center grip round shield. By the 12th century, they use kite and a type of shield, similar to pavise in shape. A lot of armor is often in form of leather, which is not supported by any findings. Helmets resembles those of history roughly in shape. Baltic helmets are often similar to slavic ones, there is friedrichsburg helmet, attributed to prussians. There are also more unique ones, but they do resemble the ones in the game just because they are pointy. Funny, vanilla's sudovian tribesmen's unit has a similar helmet to Kaunas' helm.

Early sources of baltic warriors from 13th to early 14th centuries show them to be quite different from the mod.

"Dwa przedstawienia uzbrojenia baltyckiego w sredniowiecznej plastyce figuralnej z ziem polskich", in: Archeologia, t. 8, 1984, s. 83-95

From Marienwerder relief. Just mail shirts, helmets with somewhat closed aventails, those pavise-like shields and what looks like spears being thrown and then fighting in close combat.

[riesucius]

I'd discuss about the history, but it is really hard to post replies with images here, they have to be reviewed by mods. In short, there are many things wrong with lithuanian roster as it is now.

[riesucius]

Main ideas of reality that lithuanian warfare was. Untill 14th century, the most common way of fighting resembled that of an iron age: Infantry fighting with spears behind shields, with various longer blades and axes to back them up. There are dane axes found, dated to these times, so there must have been some heavier infantry also. The most common ranged weapon is a javelin or throwing spear, bows are sometimes used, but sources mention them just few times. Later lithuanian archers were mainly ruthenian. Most people like in the rest of the world did not use armor at all, shield was the main defensive equipment, everyone used it. Some poorer people may have used helmets like this.


More well off people used mail, lamellar, various kinds of helmets. It is not known if lamellar was worn over the mail at this point. A possibility. Lithuanian cavalry was light in terms of tactics, they mostly encircled opponents, threw javelins at them by advancing and retreating. Theoretically with the technology available, it could have been medium cavalry, could fight in prolonged mounted combat, but there are no sources mentioning that lithuanians had heavy shock cavalry at this time, compared to western knights or heavier cavalry of rus.