LITHUANIA

[riesucius]

Lithuania in 14th century and onwards.
During 14th, century, things quite changed. Ruthenian lands were increasingly incorporated into the state, it was not about defense of the baltics anymore only. Crossbows started being manufactured in cities, but rural people still used javelins, some of them date even into early 15th century. Lithuanian heavy cavalry of 1370s looks like western knights of 1270s, pretty outdated. Whole body covered in mail and with some rigid protection on top: lamellar, brigandine, eastern brigandine or possibly rus scale. Like Germany or Poland, Lithuania was late in adoption of rigid limb armor, even worse, it was only in late 14th century that we see various arm or leg harnesses. Richest of boyars in late 14th, early 15th centuries could afford to look like polish or german knights.
Here are some copies of images, related to late 14th and early 15th century heavy cav of theirs.

[umbracatervae777]

Maybe you can try https://imgur.com/ then copy the link after clicking Insert Image button

[riesucius]

Right.

Here is the image i wanted to post. Late 14th, early 15th century lithuanian cavalry depiction copies.

From the conclusion, it looks like they used plate armor with conjunction of eastern helmets sometimes. Pickelhaube bascinets like that from Torun or various other ruthenian tent helmets. Normal bascinets were also used, as you can see. Actually, one of such examples are found in what is modern Ukraine.

Poorer nobility would use less advanced parts of plate armor, like splinted arm or leg harnesses similar to these.

Less advanced torso protection than rigid breastplates would be brigandines, coat of plates, eastern versions of those, even lamellar vests. Also, make of this what you will, but these plates were a part of either an eastern brigandine or some kind of scale
armor.

[riesucius]

From 15th century onwards, richest of nobles would have worn up to date western armor with some regional stylistic differences, like tent helmets i mentioned.
A human-sized figure, made with collaboration of Andrew Khotianovsky and Sergey Oganov.


Later 15th century, with the style of german sallets and more advanced plate armor persisted.

Here you can see depiction of Sigismund Korybut on the left. Upper right is from Radzivil chronicle and to its right is a sallet, found in Belarus. Lower right is from the same chonicle and as you can see, it still follows the fashion of western armor in general, but with eastern helmets. Theres also a modern recreation of how it would have looked like more realistically in the utmost right lower corner.

[riesucius]

Some ideas on the units, mentioned earlier in the thread and how they are to be changed. This is all according, to what i have posted before.

Lithuanian cavalry. Thier clothing is more of a fantasy viking deisgn, not actually historical. This is for all units that lithuania has, none of them look historical, so i will not mention this about every single unit. Not only lithuanians didn't use lots of bows, they did not use them for mounted combat. Only javelins were used for mounted combat in terms of ranged weapons.

Lithuanian skirmishers. Should have a shield.

Lettish crossbowmen. Crossbows start to be manufactured in 14th century bu lithuanians. Can't exist that early.

Prussian auxillia. Good concept. A sort of melee jav cav.

Lithuanian archers. For a unit of such stats, its realistic. Lithuanians did't have strong archery culture.

Followers of perkunas. Fantasy.

Lithuanian axemen. Should use a kite or small pavise shield.

Ruthenian archers. Later lithuanians employed ruthenian archers. That would be mid 13th century or maybe even later. The problem is that these ruthenian archers don't look ruthenian at all. Why are they using longbows?

Dievas guard. No sources of lithuanians using armored horse barding. They did not use shock cavalry till 14th century.

Giltines chosen. Pollaxes did not exist yet. There was no scale armor like that, but lamellar existed. A good concept of some heavy two handed unit, with mail shirts and lamellar vests.

[Jurand of Cracow]

It'd be nice if you'd download the SSHIP and make the comments on the SSHIP. Yours seem to be based on the base SS names (the very units are the same).
Anyway, I do agree with you on Lith cavalry (should be with javelins or short spear), crossbowmen (they will be redone as a Hanseatic unit), all the three elite units.
In general, the Lithuanian roster deserves a serious remastering.

[riesucius]

I'll need to check how to install SSHIP. Thing is, i commented about the units themselves, not the names, the ideas behind them.

I have to ask. Is it possible to make events like in original SS? You know, like mounted crossbows being able to be recruited after an event or later plate armored units being able to be made after a certain event.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'll need to check how to install SSHIP. Thing is, i commented about the units themselves, not the names, the ideas behind them.

I have to ask. Is it possible to make events like in original SS? You know, like mounted crossbows being able to be recruited after an event or later plate armored units being able to be made after a certain event.

Well, I have to ask: what you're referring to?
Eg. the Polish Strzelcy (mounted crossbowmen) are available after the relevant event:

;===================================================================================================================================;- Poland stables ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


        recruit_pool  "Scouts"  1   0.13   1  0  requires factions { poland, } and not event_counter MOUNTED_CROSSBOWS 1
        recruit_pool  "Scouts"  1   0.06   1  0  requires factions { poland, } and event_counter MOUNTED_CROSSBOWS 1 and not event_counter TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR 1
        recruit_pool  "Scouts"  1   0.04   1  0  requires factions { poland, } and event_counter TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter MATCHLOCK 1
		
        recruit_pool  "Polish Shooters"  1   0.13   1  0  requires factions { poland, } and event_counter MOUNTED_CROSSBOWS 1 and not event_counter POLAND5_COUNCIL_OF_LECZYCA 1
        recruit_pool  "Polish Shooters"  1   0.17   2  0  requires factions { poland, } and event_counter POLAND5_COUNCIL_OF_LECZYCA 1 and not event_counter HANDGUN 1
        recruit_pool  "Polish Shooters"  1   0.13   2  0  requires factions { poland, } and event_counter HANDGUN 1 and not event_counter ADV_MATCHLOCK 1		
		
        recruit_pool  "Lithuanian Cavalry"  0   0.06   2  0  requires factions { poland, } and hidden_resource lithuania and not event_counter new_era_begins 1

[kostic]

I have no skills for Lithuanians. Personally, I just believe I changed vanilla horses with a better model but without historical competence.
I am willing to believe that their units are fantasized as they appear today in SSHIP.
However, you criticized the entire SSHIP by arguing that it was no more credible than the original SS, which I challenge !


The visual fit of the units is built around the TW engine which allows for slight nuances within the units. I'm trying as best I can to restore - at least for the western part of the game - an atmosphere more in keeping with the game's start date.
From 1100, the European knights could have a fixed face on their helm (cf: Liliane & Fred Funcken - The Costume, the armor and the weapons at the time of the knighthood). Look at helmets 1 and 2 :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Was it very widespread? Maybe not, but after all no one was there to see it !
With SSHIP we avoid, for example, other anachronisms like those of soldiers in full plate armor in the middle of the 12th century !

[riesucius]

SSHIP has more historically accurate in some cases than original SS. You see, both SS and SSHIP have inaccuracies, it is what it is.

I think you should do a better research. The book you used here is not a good source of information. "From 1100, the European knights could have a fixed face on their helm" - 1100 is not 1195. Simple as that.
"With SSHIP we avoid, for example, other anachronisms like those of soldiers in full plate armor in the middle of the 12th century !" - Good idea. This rus guy here is wearing bazubands and plate leg harness. Very out of place.



For info on western european face protection on helmets, i advice you to take a look at this. Actual iconography sources, not interpretations of some book.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ry_Helmets.png

[riesucius]

A bit off-topic we went, but here is the source for number 5 from your book. 1215, very far away from 1000.

[Nemesis2345]

SSHIP has more historically accurate in some cases than original SS. You see, both SS and SSHIP have inaccuracies, it is what it is.

I think you should do a better research. The book you used here is not a good source of information. "From 1100, the European knights could have a fixed face on their helm" - 1100 is not 1195. Simple as that.
"With SSHIP we avoid, for example, other anachronisms like those of soldiers in full plate armor in the middle of the 12th century !" - Good idea. This rus guy here is wearing bazubands and plate leg harness. Very out of place.



For info on western european face protection on helmets, i advice you to take a look at this. Actual iconography sources, not interpretations of some book.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ry_Helmets.png

What the guys tried to say is that , the units ported from SS 6.4 (which are most of the units in SSHIP obviously) are indeed innacurate.

However , Kostic , Arthalion , Nikossaiz etc. are remaking units from scratch in order to be accurate. Obviously , they cant rework tons of units overnight , but so far their work is marvelous and much more immersive. But still a lot of work .

[riesucius]

Sounds great. I really loved those saxon huscarls of byzantines. Is it the work of SSHIP team also? Top quality. Please don't tell me that these guys also did the mercenary macemen unit. That would be extremely sad to know. Keep up the good work, people.

[Jurand of Cracow]

"From 1100, the European knights could have a fixed face on their helm" - 1100 is not 1195. Simple as that.

I don't know anything about this issue but I may just say that the SS/SSHIP are supposed to last 800 turns and span 1132-1532 (or more, I don't remember), there's a hardcoded number of units of 500, there're many cultures / factions demanding separate units, there're gameplay demands, so there'll there'll be many units with out-the-era equipment. I'd guess that an issue of helmet covering or not a warriors' face in 1132 or in 1190 is going to be the least important of those unhistoricities.
I'd concentrate rather on making the mod a bit more historical by chasing the really abhorrent things, like the Flagellants unit or the Followers of Perkunas.

[riesucius]

Makes sense. Like you mentioned, faceplate helmets are not an issue of most important kind. Still, i think that a unit would look much better and historical without them like that lovely unit saxon huscarls. The biggest problems are in the east, where 14th century armor is used in 1130s. Rus using plate leg protection, seljuks using retractable nasal helms and so on.

I am here to mostly discuss lithuanians though, since i have seen few podcasts about their early warfare and technology and know some findings and depictions.

[kostic]

Sounds great. I really loved those saxon huscarls of byzantines. Is it the work of SSHIP team also? Top quality. Please don't tell me that these guys also did the mercenary macemen unit. That would be extremely sad to know. Keep up the good work, people.

I remade this Macemen mercenary unit. What do you blame him for ?


Also, as I said above, I did not remake the Eastern units and agree that many are too protected to be adequate in the 12th century.


Don't be so dismissive of our amateur work! Interpretation is essential to recreate such distant eras. My sources may not be precise enough for you, but they do not deserve this contempt.

[riesucius]

In short, victorian era historians looked at the manuscripts and saw a bunch of mail armor depicitons in different ways. They completely misinterpreted it and created some theoretical armor designs. Nobody holds such views on those depictions anymore, it is widely known that there are more than one ways to depict mail.


Here is the infamous image. This is all just made up, not backed up by any material culture.

[Nemesis2345]

In short, victorian era historians looked at the manuscripts and saw a bunch of mail armor depicitons in different ways. They completely misinterpreted it and created some theoretical armor designs. Nobody holds such views on those depictions anymore, it is widely known that there are more than one ways to depict mail.


Here is the infamous image. This is all just made up, not backed up by any material culture.

Ughh arent those gambesons tho??

[kostic]

Probably most of the costume pieces have disappeared. Leather only exceptionally resists more than 10 centuries.
New theories, we will have them every day.


In the meantime, I don't see how scandalous my choices are. How would you have represented this unit of mercenaries carrying masses ? (an entire unit carrying masses seems unlikely to me in the Middle Ages anyway, but you have to do with the game engine !)
So show me how they should be and maybe I'll change them ...

[riesucius]

There is nothing to disappear, those are not leather, its misinterpreted mail armor. There is actual leather armor in history and this is not one of them.

I advice you to go to this site. https://manuscriptminiatures.com/tags
It has many manuscripts in it and you can seatch by tags. Here, mace tag is really scarse, so just use "club" tag. It all depends on what you think mercenary macemen represent. If its a poorer unit, they could wear simply clothing with maybe helmets or mail coifs, or both. If its a richer unit, you can also give them a mail hauberk. There are some depictions of padded armor like gambeson related to this period, but it is very rare and its not the gambesons with those leather straps riveted to it like its in the unit you had posted earlier.
Here is an example how poorer class people shown with clubs in 13th century.