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Thread: LITHUANIA

  1. #1
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default LITHUANIA

    Labelled as heathens by their neighbours, the Balts are some of the last remaining pagan worshippers in the region. Under the leadership of the great Mindaugas, they have been compelled to unify under the banner of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. The new Grand Duchy achieved some early military success and earned respect as a true nation of the region. The gods have been with them so far, bringing hope that their culture and beliefs will continue to prosper through many Lithuanian generations. Lithuania is locked in a bitter war with the Teutonic Order and their parent nation, the Holy Roman Empire. With no clear resolution in sight, it is likely that Lithuania will be forced to leave their pagan ways and convert to Christianity, or be slaughtered to the last man. However, Lithuania knows that many fear the greedy expansion of the Teutonic Order. By working to maintain peace with their other neighbours and through clever diplomacy, they may be able to form an alliance to destroy the common foe. Lithuania can draw much strength by holding to the old ways. Following the pagan Gods of Perkunas, Giltine, and Dievas will unleash religious warriors that instil fear in the hearts of all men. However, surrounded by Christian armies on all sides, the Lithuanians may be forced to change their ways to avoid death, enslavement, or exile at the hands of the Christians. Choosing the right time to convert from paganism to Christianity will be central to Lithuania’s long-term success. Lithuania’s strength in battle lies in its light cavalry and religious zealots, though both are lightly armoured and must use the cover of thick woods or skirmishing tactics. Surprise and speed will be Lithuania’s greatest assets, making good use of the open plains and thick woods prevalent in their home lands. Lithuania must use surprise and guerrilla tactics to weaken the heavier armies of their opponents, and then disappear as they had come – like ghosts.

    I. General information


    This thread is meant to gather all information about the faction and to conduct discussions on the faction related issues.

    The entries should be developed by both the SSHIP team and the interested players.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; July 04, 2020 at 08:38 AM.

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    Default [F] - Lithuania

    II. Strategy & gameplay


    To be developed in due course. If you've played the game with this faction and have insights how to help fellow players, please write a proposal for this section.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; June 21, 2019 at 02:02 PM.

  3. #3
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    Default [F] - Lithuania

    III. Provinces (incl. names, provincial titles, resources, map features etc.)

    The provinces that have historically been associated with this faction are listed here - it's usually defined by the "faction_creator" in the "descr_strat.txt" file. However, some may be in another faction's thread - due to historical or purely technical reasons.

    Provincial titles:
    General explanations to be found in the relevant thread on the PTs.
    Catholic: "Comes" with Latin names of the provinces, modified if historically justified.
    Orthodox: “Knyaz” + name + suffix "skyi". If somebody would collect the historical names, please drop an entry in this thread.
    Muslim: generic "Emir of" + settlement name.
    Coast of arms (CoA): have been reviewed and updated for the SSHIP 096 - to be as historical as possible.


    Twangste (Prussia, Twangste_Province)
    PT: Dux Borussiae (dux - given the importance of the province in the late Middle Ages)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Twangste/Twangste/Kunigsberg. (In the Peter von Dusburg chronicle: 1326 „edicaverunt castri Kunigsberg … (apud Pruthenus dicitur) Tuwangste).
    Province name: Borussia (the name in Latin seems indeed right)

    The Prussians were certainly more numerous and technologically superior than the people from the north: future Livonia or Estonia. This is proved by the numeber of incursions suffered by the neighbouring provinces. Basically, these incursions were the reason of inviting the Teutonic Knights in 13th centuries.


    Riga (Livonia, Riga_Province)
    PT: Comes Livoniae
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Riga (also Ikšķile might be considered in the early era, but this might be confusing)
    Province name: Livonia (the name in Latin seems indeed right)
    You may read about the architecture of the Riga's castle here.

    Kernave (Lithuania, Kernave_Province)
    PT: Dux Lithuaniae
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Kernavė/Kernavė/Vilnius. Actually, we don't know any central settlement in this province in 12th century, but archeology provides us with the hill-fort of (later) Kernave. In the High era it's usually supposed to be Kernave, especially for Traidenis. In the 14 century finally the capital emerged in Vilnius (competing with Trakai). Kernave is close to Vilnius, so on the map no changes would be needed. Anyway, the script changing the names has been implemented (see later in this thread).
    Province name: Lethovia (appears in 1322 letter of Gediminas).


    Kolyvan (Estonia, Kolyvan_Province)
    PT: Comes Aestoniae (it may be a good compromise since in 12c. this was a Livonian/Estonian province, then it fell to the the Danish and German influences so one also may consider Jarl and Herzog, however, most of the part was under ecclesiastical rule (a few bishops). For the Orthodox it'll be Knayz Kolyvanskyi)
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Kolyvan/Reval/Reval (after the Danish conquest in 1219, the town became known as Reval, the name comes actually from an Estonian word while the previous one - from Slavic language)
    Province name: Estonia (the name in Latin seems indeed right)


    Goroden (Goroden, Hrodna_Province)
    PT: Comes Rutheniae Nigrae
    CoA:
    Settlement name: Goroden. (1127 was mentioned in the Primary Chronicle as Goroden and located at a crossing of numerous trading routes, Lithuanian settlement, possibly originating in the late 10th century, became the capital of separate principality.
    Province name: Black Ruthenia / Čornaja Ruś.
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; April 03, 2021 at 12:00 PM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Lithuania

    IV. Faction specific features (Crown, Offices, Bloodline, Traits, Buildings)

    Lithuania is one of two factions that are pagan. Making it historical requires making some unique solutions but also stripping of many features. This would be at the expense of the gameplay. It would also required a lot of modding time. The solution is a kind of compromise: some features are taken away while most are the same as for the "East European" catholic culture.

    Pagan priests have different triggers for their actions but the logic of convertion stays similar to the other M2TW religions.

    The Crown of Lithuania is discussed in this entry.
    (once finished and implemented, it might be copied here as well)

    The Offices are described in this thread. Lithuania uses currently the catholic offices.

    Lithuania have own set of temple buildings.
    (note: this is important for getting certain traits).

    Lithuanian Blood - should be dealt in the relevant thread.

    One should take note for the reasons why Lithuania was able to create and hold such a big faction. In particular, the role of loyalty in the dynasty - see eg Robert Frost.

    Specific traits: Lithuania has some specific traits.

    Lithuanian Reforms: unlock better troops and increase the replenishment rates, and also impact on the various benefits from the buildings. There're mechanisms (explained in-game) that prompt the reforms. For each there's also a fall-back option: a reform would happen around the time it happened historically, irrespectively of the player's failure to trigger it.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    {LITHUANIAN_EMPIRE_BODY}\n\nIn the High Middle Ages Lithuania was the last large political entity in Northern Europe. Over several decades after the death of Mindaugas in mid-13th century, a few generations of successful rulers brought its ascendency over the former Kievan Rus territories. The expansion reached its heigh point under Grand Duke Gediminas (1315-1341), who created a kind of central government and established his overlordship over the duchies ruled by his relatives. The country spread from the Black to the Baltic Seas.\n\nIMPACT ON GAMEPLAY: Stronger Lithuanian units may now be recruited from shrines. Certain guilds will also provide more troops.
    {LITHUANIAN_EMPIRE_TITLE}Lithuanian Ascedency
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; October 25, 2021 at 04:11 PM.

  5. #5
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Lithuania

    V. Starting position in 1132 (incl. settlements, armies, generals, traits, political situation)


    Capital: Kernave (it's the best of the options, see discussion is here).
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; June 25, 2019 at 02:43 AM.

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    Default [F] - Lithuania

    VI. Units

    In the 0.97 there were few changes to the names of the units:

    Lithuanian Cavalry -> Lithuanian Raiders (to give idea of light troops operating the woods; at the same time it'll be possible to use them by other northern factions - to be decided how)
    Lithuanian Skirmishers -> Morass Scouts (to give the idea of the swampy terrain in these lands)
    Lettish Crossbowmen -> Baltic Crossbowmen (as below, and "baltic" is a more versatile name compared to "hanseatic")
    Prussian Auxillia -> Northern Horse Javelinmen (to enable having this unit also in other provinces, I actually think "auxillia" should be replaced by something different)
    Lithuanian Archers -> Forest Archers (this is the nature of these guys, and already before they were recruitable by Poland there and elsewhere. In act, they're a shared unit with Poland)
    Followers of Perkunas -> Pagan Fanatics

    Morass Scouts
    Available only from pagan (=Lithuanian) lands. It's a tribal unit so
    1. It's recruitable from the core building (both walls and castle).
    2. The number do not grow with the size of a settlement.
    3. It's available to all factions (well, not yet as for 097E, but in the future).


    Lithuanian Axemen


    Ruthenian Archers


    Dievas' Guard

    Pagan Fanatics


    Giltine's Chosen

    Former comments
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    MISSILE UNITS

    Lettish Crossbowmen is a fantasy unit until arrival of Teutonic Knights and urbanization of the Baltic coasts. Also the name is not the right one: Livonian maybe, but not Lettish (it's a modern term, afaik). For the moment, they have high recruitment price and very low upkeep. It’s exactly the way how mercenaries are priced – and this also should be changed. The AOR should be changed: they’re now in Goroden, but not in Revel. If anything, it should be the other way around (Goroden is Ruthenia, while Revel is in the Baltics). The bottom line: the unit should be called Hanseatic Crossbowmen (or similar) and be available from 13th century in the provinces where Hansa is (hidden resource: Hansa, 14 provinces mainly in the Baltic, from the City the level, at a reasonable price but in rather low numbers. They may be recruited from the Hanzeatic guild, as well - this should be the main source of these troops as it's available from the Large Town level. The attack value of 7 would be right in this situation.

    The Lithuanian Archers should be the main line of the Lithuanian armies and should come from the low-level settlements. For other factions than Lithuania they should be available in very limited numbers.

    The Hunters, the mercenary unit, should be recruitable in theses areas at low price.


    MELEE UNITS

    Pagan Fanatics (ex Perun Followers) are armed with scythes. I don't think this was a well-known agrarian tool at that time in the swampy woods of Lithuania. They wouldn't be armed so.

    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; November 14, 2020 at 06:28 PM.

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    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default [F] - Lithuania

    VIII. Reserve

    to be used if needed
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; December 12, 2019 at 04:02 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Lithuania

    Hello, playing with the latest December patch here.

    So noticed a few things with the faction. Aside from the fact that they feel relatively weak compared to their neighbors the rooskies and the poles, there are some units that either need to be fixed or removed entirely. The game still has "lettish crossbowmen" available after you build an altar of one of the Lithuanian gods, as well as giltines chosen. Now the lettish crossbowmen can be hired almost immediately as when you capture the first village by the polish lands you can turn it into a motte and bailey and get these units with a 3 turn build time. HOWEVER, their price is ridiculous! They're more expensive than mercenaries right now, coming in at almost 2100! Idk if this is intended because of the fact that they have crossbows for fighting armor or if its a simple oversight. They also lack the type/quality description, average? Professional? Another issue that I run into is that the skirmishers, who are militia and absolute rabble, have a 2 turn build time and are hardly worth the wait compared to the player buying the Lithuanian axe-men or another unit of spear-men with schiltrom formation.

    Lastly, the Lithuanian start position is highly precarious. Their final "homeland" is held by the poles at the start of the game, and in order to get it you need to declare war with a faction that has 3 wooden wall settlements, 2 castles, and 1 stone wall city. Where the player is recruiting overpriced chaff that is highly ineffective against armor, your enemies are recruiting nobles and armored spear-men. The AI can also build "local guard" buildings that let them get armored units, while the player can't at the same level of city. This is evident when you take pleskov from Novgorod.

    Just a discussion i wanted to bring up, as idk if there can be some kind of balancing for the faction or just get the conversation started. I'm highly enjoying the challenge mind you, it just feels incredibly stacked against you with the lack of any proper mercenaries as well.

    I'm playing at VH/M campaign/battles.
    Last edited by dacrazymofo; December 26, 2019 at 01:33 AM.

  9. #9
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Lithuania

    @dacrazymofo - it's great you're rep

    I have even more doubts about the Lettish Crossbowmen - I think it's an anachronistic unit since crossbows would develop in the urban areas, and rather later in the Middle Ages. We can have 12th century crossbowmen in Italy, but not here, in the woods. They would come with Teutonic Knights, and should be a unit perhaps after 1250 (with steadily increasing the recruit pool, developed in line with the size of the city). On the other hand, the Hunters unit should be recruitable in theses areas from all settlements, and be cheap. Or it should be rather Lithuanian Archers: numerous and cheap for the faction.

    Lithuania position seems indeed very dificult. I have not idea if it's feasible to play with this faction. I've fixed the traits of the pagan priests and Lithuanian ones should be effective and reasonable (without christian traits).
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; December 26, 2019 at 03:45 AM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Lithuania

    Hmm if that's the case the crossbows for novgorod need to be fixed too. They have them at the start along with their 3 recruitment slot capital.

  11. #11
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Lithuania

    To my knowledge, the crossbow was a urban phenomenon, for many reasons. Given that Novgorod was getting a urban life (as eg. coins from Sigtuna from 1090s seem to attest), unit of crossbowmen is realistic there (even though in small quantities).

    Lithuania was not urbanised (as was Poland or most of Rus), all crossbows should be removed from there.

    In general, crossbow units should be linked to the size of the settlement - they should be available from the level of city (T3). They should bump out the archers. And there should be a technological progress in 12/13 and 14/15 centuries.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Lithuania

    Check the Lettish Crossbowmen upkeep, it's pretty good for what they are.

    In terms of missile attack, a lot of crossbows sit at 5, Urban Crossbow Militia are 6. Lettish are 7, beat only in the early game by Templar Crossbows (10).
    By comparison, top archers might have 5, while it's a lot more common to see 3 to 4.

    As an Italian faction, I used the Urbans to kill tons of people, so the Lettish are pretty good.
    They also have a quick armor upgrade and a small shield making them somewhat resistant to basic archers.

    For Spears, learning the specifics of the mercenary unit region-groups to "farm" and retrain Mercenary Spearmen in mass will probably help, they are better and more cost-effective (again, upkeepwise) than your factions.

    However, what probably will be more useful early on would be (after a few false starts probably) using your starter spears and family members to beat up people.
    A Large Town is able to let you recruit Followers of Perkunas, crazy people with armor piercing two-handed war scythes that also get a bonus against cavalry. Your only next recruitment tier from Large Town is Large City (painful) so getting more towns to get more of these guys is preferable.
    If you are able to "let" the enemy run their cavalry into your not-good spears, and then gank them with Followers and your own bodyguards (note: bodyguards do NOT have formed_charge, so they will likely do this with swords) since Family Members are heavy cavalry, this can help you win a battle quickly.

    Later on, going heavier on the crossbows is probably a decent idea, since they do have that high attack. An infantry formation of some (mercenary) spearmen and Followers will probably do work on the field, giving the AI trouble since your infantry are dangerous but your crossbows also hurt a lot.
    When you get around to assaults, again crossbows and Followers will do good work for you. With artillery, a lot of dangerous enemy armies (with painful heavy cavalry) are best dealt with inside settlements. You can do it with crossbows + spearmen, Followers are even better.

    Also, making use of retraining on your infantry units is good, since they get +1 attack at XP 1,4, and 7. Units like Followers who kill fast and die fast ironically will end up "getting" a lot of their XP from some high XP unit endlessly retraining and refilling newcomers who got depleted. Does it really matter? Not that much probably, getting hit by one in the back when you're on a horse is very deadly.


    However, campaign-wise, I think their building selection is not good, ie: public order might be annoying before you consider how everyone around is a different religion most likely. Also, you can be Crusaded... which is always "fun".

    Oh yeah, AI factions get a free army (half-stack?) spawned for them turn 1 and the script will send said army to siege some settlement. I think Novgorod might grab a rebel settlement near to you (or the Rus).
    Because of the way taxes-growth work (slow up there in the north) and how a lot of your units are available at lower settlement levels anyway, going for the landgrab front-loads the risk, which is preferable since you'll probably either quickly start snowballing with killer light infantry and crossbows, or just die and have fun trying it again differently.

    =========

    Sadly, Lithuania doesn't get anything really cool, even if you hang around for all the later tech. Their most amusing/hilarious unit which is unique* in terms of using them is probably the Followers you get (yeah, Giltine are similar, but heavier-more expensive-less available). Otherwise they tend to just have worse versions of most things than other factions.

    *Serbia has some sort of peasant unit that uses halberds (but these are super late), and there are also "woodsmen" unit which are armor piercing but I think don't get the same availability or cavalry bonus as Followers.
    Last edited by Alavaria; December 29, 2019 at 09:06 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Lithuania

    Ok so far I've managed to take out Novgorod and remain at peace with Kiev (idk how its managed it but I got lucky this playthrough). I've been fighting off hordes of poles on my homelands. They're pathetically undeveloped compared to the russian lands. Idk if it would work out better to give these guys at least a large wooden settlement to begin with instead of the small settlement with flimsy palisades. Either way, my feedback with them is that you can just mass spearmen. That's it. That's all I've done. Mass spearmen, peasants, and the few axemen that I can afford.

    The javelins take way too long to train when all your settlements only have one recruitment slot for what they're worth. The lithuanian cavalry faces the same issue, as they are highly light cav that don't make as much impact as an extra unit or two of infantry. However, the peasant archers have worked well, and the lithuanian archers are actually quite decent.

    Its just a shame that there isn't more of a selection of troops for lithuania, although the followers tree is good, it takes forever to reach them since your settlements will most likely not have any large level shrines for a long time, or until you take over the stone wall cities of the russians.

    Until then its a crap shoot to survive the hordes of the poles and their superior numbers and armored troops. Gotta work with what you got I guess.

    However, if anything, considering this faction is basically a light infantry faction, I would suggest allowing the player to obtain followers units rather than lettish crossbows early on. With the castle upgrade you can't really get anything but the lettish crossbowmen anyways, regardless of the shrine. Changing it so that this is the case with the cities, as Jurand of Cracow said, and making the followers troops available in castles, would make way more sense considering they only get 2 types of units in the higher tier city barracks - basic spears and light axemen.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Lithuania

    Also, they seem to be in need of both heavy foot troops and heavy cavalry. Right now I don't think they have anything like that, the ducal cavalry is simply a medium cav that even with its armor upgrades nowhere near stands up to European Knights. Their armored spearmen "ducal spearmen" or w.e. they're called, are okay, but I feel they need something similiar, or to allow their follower's tree troops to upgrade their armor to a higher tier.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Lithuania

    Ok sorry for the spam, however I played around with cheats to see their roster and its actually not bad. The only issues I still find is that they lack heavy heavy cavalry at even the highest tier of stables and the issue with all variants of shrines in castles giving you Lettish crossbowmen only. As for the units, it seems both Followers of Perkunas and Giltine's chosen fulfill the same role - they're both halberd type units that frighten enemy infantry. The only difference is that one is a heavy armor variant and the other isnt, not to mention one has 30 more men in huge settings. Maybe the way to balance it a bit would be to allow the shrines to give giltine's chosen at lower city levels? At the moment you need stone walls to be able to upgrade to a shrine with the followers of perkunas, something that doesn't happen any time soon at the home settlement.

    It could be like this
    Perkunas Shrine
    Tier 1 shrine - 1 unit max
    Tier 2 shrine - 2 unit max
    Tier 3 shrine - 3 unit max

    Giltine Shrine
    Tier 1 - nothing
    Tier 2 - Priest 1 unit max
    Tier 3 - 2 units max.

    Dievas Shrine
    Tier 1 - Priest
    Tier 2 - another priest
    Tier 3 - another priest

    As for the lettish crossbows, they could be added to either the settlement level or the 3rd/4th tier barracks, the one that's available with a wooden wall and increase by 1 after that.

    Thoughts? I know this faction can steamroll hard which is why it starts so weak, but at the moment it is incredibly challenging, to say the least, with all of the large empires that surround you, as well as the lack of AP damage until you get to stone castle with ducal axemen (not counting woodsmen available in the topmost russian province by finland). Added to this is the fact that the capital gives a title that increases dread, making it very difficult for you to increase pop growth early on.
    Last edited by dacrazymofo; December 31, 2019 at 10:07 PM.

  16. #16
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: Lithuania

    Actually, I think both "Followers" units are fantasy units and should be renemed, at least. Religion didn't play such role in Lithuania as depicted by such units. I think they should be called "Tribal Nobles" or something.

    The lack of heavy cavalry should be a speciality of this faction. The Lithuanians stayed light throughout whole Middle Ages. It's easily to be read in the sources.

    The lands should also stay underdeveloped. However, some parts of Rus (and Poland) are too developed atm, imo.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: [F] - LITHUANIA

    Check this site: http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=his...%2Findex%2Ehtm

    It's quite detailed about Lithuania and is in English and some other languages as well
    Last edited by Lifthrasir; January 10, 2020 at 08:11 AM.
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  18. #18
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    Default Re: [F] - LITHUANIA

    A little suggestion about Twangste, if you don't mind
    Prussians were indeed on a much lower state of development than most of european states, but they weren't some savages either Twangste lied in a richest land of Prussians, Sambia, and they had pretty well developed trade, agriculture and horse breeding. Starting rebel garrison for this settlement is quite an army, but Twangste itself doesn't correlate with this at all, there are no buildings and only ~350 inhabitants if I'm not wrong. It makes conquering it almost not worthy the effort. I suggest that you should create there some buildings like pallisade, basic level of farms and grain exchange post, plus increase population to something around 1000 people. And one more thing, give the garrison commander Prussian Auxilia as bodyguard, instead of feudal knights





  19. #19
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: [F] - LITHUANIA

    I agree on the units, actually. I'd even say more: the garrison is a kind of absurdity, a hangover from the previous version of the SS. The Prussian Auxillia was a Teutonic Order unit, not a Prussian one...

    However, conquering Prussia should make sense in the long run - in 13th century it can be a bigger settlement. In the 12th it should be under construction. Still a poor backwater. Arrival of the Hanseatic merchants (I've tweaked it recently so that they come at large town level) should make the growth possible.

    Population - maybe not 350, but 1000, but without farms and grain exchange, imo. It was the Teutonic Order in 13th century that brought here such high technology.

  20. #20

    Default Re: [F] - LITHUANIA

    About prussian troops units models( auxiliaries, spearmen...) They have teutonic order models, is not accurante and not historical, maybe is possible improve these units with other baltic models... In the battle for the baltic mod have good models and unit models for campaign unit model also for nordics, russian, lithuanians...
    THE MORE YOU SWEAT NOW,
    THE LESS YOU BLEED IN BATTLE!!!



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