LITHUANIA

[Lifthrasir]

^^ Except that it is not free of use as far as I know

[Hellvard]

^^ Except that it is not free of use as far as I know

But this units are already in your mod They were already present in "vanilla" SS 6.4 or even earlier

Population - maybe not 350, but 1000, but without farms and grain exchange, imo. It was the Teutonic Order in 13th century that brought here such high technology.

Basic level of farming and trade posts are high technologies? Prussians have traded with Germans, Czechs and even Arabs. I think they were capable of setting up a bunch of stalls and plowing a chunk of soil without teutonic "high technology"

[Lifthrasir]

But this units are already in your mod They were already present in "vanilla" SS 6.4 or even earlier

If the permission was granted for Stainless Steel and the units implemented accordingly in SS6.4, then it should be fine to use them in SSHIP.

Basic level of farming and trade posts are high technologies? Prussians have traded with Germans, Czechs and even Arabs. I think they were capable of setting up a bunch of stalls and plowing a chunk of soil without teutonic "high technology"

It also depends on how important (in terms of income) farming and trade were important for that area. Any sources we can exploit?

[Jurand of Cracow]

It also depends on how important (in terms of income) farming and trade were important for that area. Any sources we can exploit?

There's one academic journal devoted to the Prussians - Pruthenia. Very good introductory article on middle ages in Prussia is here. For some, the languate may be a barrier though ;-)

But the issue in the games like SSHIP is "how does it compare to the other parts of Europe". And sorry, it's difficult to find any more underdeveloped backwater in Europe, than Prussia (ok, Finland, Scandinavian interior, and northern Russia, and Scotland). So Twangste should be like Stettin or Turku: nothing inside.

In this context Scotland creates a problem: it was an equal backwater (and the highlands even till 18th century ;-), yet two provinces have to support a kingdom that is a competitor to England - tough balancing question.

[Hellvard]

If the permission was granted for Stainless Steel and the units implemented accordingly in SS6.4, then it should be fine to use them in SSHIP.

Don't you know, that Lithuania has units from this mod Also some units of Poland have Battle for the Baltic models.

Well, in my opinion there should be no settlements without any buildings. Your mod starts in XIIth century, it's not an Ice Age Even settlements that historically stayed highly underdeveloped in comparison to others, achieved some level of development and importance. Otherwise, they would just be not present on the map Twangste was a "backwater" indeed. But it was not a cave of neanderthals euther. These mans were farming, trading with many nations, fishing in the sea, crafting weapons and armours, raiding their neighbours just like any other nation and you're saying, that they do not deserve basic level of cheap and definitelly not technologically advanced trade post made out of a few planks put together and a crude pallisade, that was know to humanity for ages before? I think that I saw a "historical Improvement" phrase somewhere in your mod's title

[j.a.luna]

Don't you know, that Lithuania has units from this mod Also some units of Poland have Battle for the Baltic models.

Well, in my opinion there should be no settlements without any buildings. Your mod starts in XIIth century, it's not an Ice Age Even settlements that historically stayed highly underdeveloped in comparison to others, achieved some level of development and importance. Otherwise, they would just be not present on the map Twangste was a "backwater" indeed. But it was not a cave of neanderthals euther. These mans were farming, trading with many nations, fishing in the sea, crafting weapons and armours, raiding their neighbours just like any other nation and you're saying, that they do not deserve basic level of cheap and definitelly not technologically advanced trade post made out of a few planks put together and a crude pallisade, that was know to humanity for ages before? I think that I saw a "historical Improvement" phrase somewhere in your mod's title

About unit models i agree, sship and vainilla stainless steel have some units models of the mod "Battle for the Baltic" so i think that you have permission to use... It would be great add all units models and also units strat models for the campaign for sship mod, they are so inmersive, historical and so cool for eastern europe( russians, cumans, poland and lithuanians)
About Twangste settlement yes, maybe should have some "basic" buildings as a farm or agriculture building and a market and basic quarter, all very basic and little in comparison with the rest of settlement of sship, maybe this settlement is similar to cuman settlement of Iasi ( far east)

[Lifthrasir]

Don't you know, that Lithuania has units from this mod Also some units of Poland have Battle for the Baltic models.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Lithuanian roster in BftB mod was originally made by MadTao for this mod.
I need to check but the one in SS is from the same source or from Rusichi mod

Well, in my opinion there should be no settlements without any buildings. Your mod starts in XIIth century, it's not an Ice Age Even settlements that historically stayed highly underdeveloped in comparison to others, achieved some level of development and importance. Otherwise, they would just be not present on the map Twangste was a "backwater" indeed. But it was not a cave of neanderthals euther. These mans were farming, trading with many nations, fishing in the sea, crafting weapons and armours, raiding their neighbours just like any other nation and you're saying, that they do not deserve basic level of cheap and definitelly not technologically advanced trade post made out of a few planks put together and a crude pallisade, that was know to humanity for ages before? I think that I saw a "historical Improvement" phrase somewhere in your mod's title

True but beside the historical part, there's also the gameplay and that's actually the main point in SSHIP: finding the right balance between historical accuracy and gameplay. Without fun, no matter what, a historical mod would be rubbish.
So yes, these settlements might be supposed to have more buildings but if it unbalances the economy differences between the other factions in the game, then there's no point to do it. Note that it doesn't mean that we can not have a look at it and see if modifications are needed there

[Jurand of Cracow]

Unless I'm mistaken, the Lithuanian roster in BftB mod was originally made by MadTao for this mod.
I need to check but the one in SS is from the same source or from Rusichi mod

I think MadTao units were included in the SS and as such they can be used by any minimod do the SS.

[j.a.luna]

I think MadTao units were included in the SS and as such they can be used by any minimod do the SS.

If it is true, it would be a great new for sship includes these historical unlts for russians, cumans , mongols, lithuanians and polish. All the eastern europeans factions have improve in their unlts models in comparison with the ugly vainilla models

[Hellvard]

True but beside the historical part, there's also the gameplay and that's actually the main point in SSHIP: finding the right balance between historical accuracy and gameplay. Without fun, no matter what, a historical mod would be rubbish.
So yes, these settlements might be supposed to have more buildings but if it unbalances the economy differences between the other factions in the game, then there's no point to do it. Note that it doesn't mean that we can not have a look at it and see if modifications are needed there

You're right, we can't focus too much on historical accuracy, beside it's being just impossible to simulate on game's engine, it would make some factions pretty much unplayable Back to Twangste: I don't think that adding there some simple buildings and more population would affect the game's balance negativelly, and here's why:

1. It has a huge garrison as for the start of the campaign, any faction willing to conquer it would have to deploy quite an army in order to do that, which costs a lot of money and leaves their starting settlements almost unguarded. In my playthrough, no matter which neighbouring faction I would choose, Twangste would be my last target, assuming that I would conquer other rebel settlements before some other faction attacked me. It's just not worthy the effort required to do it.
2. Every faction (beside Lithuania, that would still have the problem described above) would have to face another issue, if they manage to conquer it - pagan inhabitants. I don't know how big impact does religious unrest have in SSHIP, but I assume it's quite serious So after putting time and money to defeat Prussian army in Twangste, one will have to keep pretty big garrison in there, to avoid losing it to the rebels again. That means tiny to no profits at all for quite a number of turns, before population will convert to one's religion, thus allowing to disband some units from garrison.

So there are two options: Leave Twangste as it is, but with smaller garrison, because current one doesn't justify what's inside at all, or add there some buildings and more population, it's up to you

[Jurand of Cracow]

I've got two thoughts on this issue:

"So after putting time and money to defeat Prussian army in Twangste, one will have to keep pretty big garrison in there, to avoid losing it to the rebels again." - yes, yes, yes! Historically, Prussia would stay independent for such a long time (till 13th century) because it was not possible to make profits, and not possible to keep control. It should be like this!

" Every faction (beside Lithuania, that would still have the problem described above) would have to face another issue, if they manage to conquer it - pagan inhabitants. I don't know how big impact does religious unrest have in SSHIP, but I assume it's quite serious" - yes, yes, yes, and even more: the religion of the neighbouring lands in Poland shoud be much more pagan! It was only in 13th century when the Christians would make majority of the inhabitants in Poland! (a similar case is in central Anatolia concerning the Muslims: there're almost none of them, the absolute majority was Christian)

What bothers me, is the type of garrison Twangste has. These are units from the Teutonic Order time.

[j.a.luna]

About these prussian units or units about this baltic/prussian/pagan regions i think that could be modify or import other historical mod(Btb), maybe kostic could modify this "auxiliaries teutonic order" by others more realistic and pagans, making regional troops similar to others as armenians, alans, berbers.. that exist in sship

[Hellvard]

yes, yes, yes! Historically, Prussia would stay independent for such a long time (till 13th century) because it was not possible to make profits, and not possible to keep control. It should be like this!

Exactly And with that small, in fact: zero level of development, Twangste is just not worth conquering at all.

yes, yes, yes, and even more: the religion of the neighbouring lands in Poland shoud be much more pagan! It was only in 13th century when the Christians would make majority of the inhabitants in Poland!

That's right I read somewhere about pagan rituals being carried out in some regions of Mazovia in XVIIth century or even later on

What bothers me, is the type of garrison Twangste has. These are units from the Teutonic Order time.

Indeed. Is Teutonic Order present as a faction in SSHIP campaign? Does it spawn later on via some script?

[Lifthrasir]

TO has been replaced by Serbia.

[Hellvard]

If that's the case you can:

-remove Prussian Auxilia unit entirely
-remove Prussian Spearmen or change their model to less western-like
-change shield texture of Prussian Axemen and maybe rename them to Prussian Nobles

EDU tells also about Prussian Archers unit, but I can't find them in custom battle
And one more, not topic related thing: I found that Cossack Gunners without upgrade are "silver surfers" but I think you should remove them completelly. It's not medieval time period unit. Aaaand while we're at the mounted gunners subject, are Mounted Arquebusiers really a historical unit and do they fit your mod's time period? End of offtopic

[Jurand of Cracow]

I think in the SSHIP we do have Teutonic Knights: event telling they're coming, it's possible to build the chapter houses etc.
So we assume that Teutonic Order indeed came to the Baltics, only the TO state was not founded. Therefore I'm against removing PrAuxillia etc.
Me, I don't care about custom battles so I don't know the relationships between what's available there and what's available in the game.

[j.a.luna]

If that's the case you can:

-remove Prussian Auxilia unit entirely
-remove Prussian Spearmen or change their model to less western-like
-change shield texture of Prussian Axemen and maybe rename them to Prussian Nobles

EDU tells also about Prussian Archers unit, but I can't find them in custom battle
And one more, not topic related thing: I found that Cossack Gunners without upgrade are "silver surfers" but I think you should remove them completelly. It's not medieval time period unit. Aaaand while we're at the mounted gunners subject, are Mounted Arquebusiers really a historical unit and do they fit your mod's time period? End of offtopic

It could be a good idea, but i prefer modify instead of eliminate units, making less western style and with baltic/pagans features could be a good solution for these units.
About very late units as cossaks guners and mounted arquebusiers in my opinion could be a good idea remove these "not useful" units because practically nobody gets to play in such a late gameplay, in the thread of "new factions units rosters" i said some proposal about remove these units for have more free slots and make new units for the beginning of the game for more diversity for factions

[Hellvard]

I think in the SSHIP we do have Teutonic Knights: event telling they're coming, it's possible to build the chapter houses etc.
So we assume that Teutonic Order indeed came to the Baltics, only the TO state was not founded. Therefore I'm against removing PrAuxillia etc.

So, we just have to remove them from Twangste garrison at the start of the campaign

Me, I don't care about custom battles so I don't know the relationships between what's available there and what's available in the game.

It's too bad, if you do, you could find some unsused units ready to put in the campaign or some unfitting ones to remove

[Jurand of Cracow]

I've started to implement changes to the names of provinces:

    ;--- TWANGSTE     monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement SettlementName Twangste
        and CharacterReligion catholic


        change_settlement_name Twangste Kunigsberg
    end_monitor


    monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement SettlementName Twangste
        and CharacterReligion pagan


        change_settlement_name Twangste Twangste
    end_monitor




    ;--- KERNAVE 
    monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement SettlementName Kernave
        and CharacterReligion catholic


        change_settlement_name Kernave Vilnius
    end_monitor


    monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement SettlementName Kernave
        and CharacterReligion pagan
        and I_TurnNumber < 401
			
        change_settlement_name Kernave Kernave
    end_monitor
		
    monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement SettlementName Kernave
        and CharacterReligion pagan
        and I_TurnNumber > 400
			
        change_settlement_name Kernave Trakai
    end_monitor
	
    ;--- KOLYVAN 
    monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement SettlementName Kolyvan
        and CharacterReligion catholic


        change_settlement_name Kolyvan Reval
    end_monitor
	
    monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement SettlementName Kolyvan
        and CharacterReligion pagan


        change_settlement_name Kolyvan Tallin
    end_monitor
	
    monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement SettlementName Kolyvan
        and CharacterReligion orthodox


        change_settlement_name Kolyvan Kolyvan
    end_monitor
	
    ;--- TURKU 
    monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement SettlementName Turku
        and CharacterReligion catholic


        change_settlement_name Turku Abo
    end_monitor
	
    monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement SettlementName Turku
        and not CharacterReligion catholic


        change_settlement_name Turku Turku
    end_monitor

[Just let me post]

I've found the conversion script

;
; Campaign script
;
script


    ;setup some event counters
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart
    
        ;setup LITHUANIA CONVERSION counters
        
        add_events
            event    counter    lithuania_conversion_accepted
            event    counter    lithuania_conversion_declined
            event    counter lithuania_conversion_timer
             date    0
         end_add_events


        generate_random_counter    lithuania_conversion_timer 0 25
        set_event_counter lithuania_conversion_accepted 0
        set_event_counter lithuania_conversion_declined 0
        


        ;setup HANSEATIC LEAGUE counters


        add_events
            event    counter    hansaetic_formation_timer
            event    counter    hanseatic_constructed
             date    0
         end_add_events
        
        generate_random_counter    hanseatic_formation_timer 0 10         
        set_event_counter hanseatic_constructed 0                    ;DONT RENAME - counter referenced by name in export_descr_guilds


        ;setup TECH TREE counters
        
        add_events
            event    counter    pagan_lithuania          ;DONT RENAME - counter referenced by name in export_descr_buildings
            event    counter    not_pagan_lithuania        ;DONT RENAME - counter referenced by name in export_descr_buildings
            event    counter not_teutonic            ;DONT RENAME - counter referenced by name in export_descr_buildings
             date    0
         end_add_events
        
        set_event_counter pagan_lithuania 0
        set_event_counter not_pagan_lithuania 0
        set_event_counter not_teutonic 0
    
        terminate_monitor
    
    end_monitor


    ;------------------- TECHTREE -------------------;
    
    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart not FactionType lithuania
        and not FactionType teutonic_order
        
        set_event_counter pagan_lithuania 0
        set_event_counter not_pagan_lithuania 1
        set_event_counter not_teutonic 1
        
    end_monitor
    
    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType lithuania
        
        set_event_counter pagan_lithuania 1
        set_event_counter not_pagan_lithuania 0
        set_event_counter not_teutonic 1
        
        if I_EventCounter lithuania_conversion_accepted = 1
            set_event_counter pagan_lithuania 0
            set_event_counter not_pagan_lithuania 1
        end_if
        
            
    end_monitor
    
    monitor_event PreFactionTurnStart FactionType teutonic_order        
        
        set_event_counter not_teutonic 0
        set_event_counter pagan_lithuania 0
        set_event_counter not_pagan_lithuania 1
        
    end_monitor
    
    ;set counters on FactionTurnStart once only to ensure correct tech tree options are present at turn 0
    
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart not FactionType lithuania
        and not FactionType teutonic_order
        
        set_event_counter pagan_lithuania 0
        set_event_counter not_pagan_lithuania 1
        set_event_counter not_teutonic 1
        
        terminate_monitor
        
    end_monitor
    
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType lithuania
        
        set_event_counter pagan_lithuania 1
        set_event_counter not_pagan_lithuania 0
        set_event_counter not_teutonic 1
        
        if I_EventCounter lithuania_conversion_accepted = 1
            set_event_counter pagan_lithuania 0
            set_event_counter not_pagan_lithuania 1
        end_if
        
        terminate_monitor
            
    end_monitor
    
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType teutonic_order        
        
        set_event_counter not_teutonic 0
        set_event_counter pagan_lithuania 0
        set_event_counter not_pagan_lithuania 1
        
        terminate_monitor
        
    end_monitor
    
    
    ;teutonic_order does not allow the brothel/tavern chain in their cities
    monitor_event GeneralCaptureSettlement FactionType teutonic_order
        
        destroy_buildings teutonic_order taverns true
    
    end_monitor
    
    monitor_event GiveSettlement TargetFactionType teutonic_order
    
        destroy_buildings teutonic_order taverns true
    
    end_monitor
    
    monitor_event CityRebels TargetFactionType teutonic_order
    
        destroy_buildings teutonic_order taverns true
        
    end_monitor
    
    monitor_event GovernorCityRebels TargetFactionType teutonic_order
    
        destroy_buildings teutonic_order taverns true
        
    end_monitor
    
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType teutonic_order
    
        destroy_buildings teutonic_order taverns true
        
    end_monitor
    
    ;------------------- LITHUANIA CONVERSION TO CATHOLICISM -------------------;
    
    ;increment the timer for conversion offer
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType lithuania
    
            inc_event_counter lithuania_conversion_timer 1
            
            if I_EventCounter lithuania_conversion_accepted = 1
                terminate_monitor
            end_if
            
    end_monitor
    
    ;offer the conversion to Lithuania if the correct conditions are met
    
    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType lithuania
    
        if I_NumberOfSettlements lithuania < 5
            and I_EventCounter lithuania_conversion_timer >= 37
            and I_EventCounter lithuania_conversion_accepted = 0
            
            ;offer conversion to christianity
            historic_event lithuania_conversion true factions { lithuania, }
            
            ;if AI random chance to accept
            if I_IsFactionAIControlled lithuania
            
                generate_random_counter    random_accept 0 2
                if I_EventCounter random_accept < 2
                    set_event_counter lithuania_conversion_accepted 1
                end_if
                
            end_if
            
            terminate_monitor
            
        end_if
        
        if I_EventCounter lithuania_conversion_timer >= 65
            and I_EventCounter lithuania_conversion_accepted = 0
            
            ;offer conversion to christianity
            historic_event lithuania_conversion true factions { lithuania, }
            
            ;if AI random chance to accept
            if I_IsFactionAIControlled lithuania
            
                generate_random_counter    random_accept 0 2
                if I_EventCounter random_accept < 2
                    set_event_counter lithuania_conversion_accepted 1
                end_if
                
            end_if
            
            terminate_monitor
            
        end_if
        
    end_monitor
    
    monitor_conditions I_EventCounter lithuania_conversion_accepted = 1
        
        ;Three easy steps for conversion
        
        ;1 - Convert the people
        set_religion lithuania catholic
        change_population_religion lithuania catholic 75 pagan
        
        ;2 - Destroy the pagan buildings
        destroy_buildings lithuania temple_dievas true
        destroy_buildings lithuania temple_dievas_castle true
        destroy_buildings lithuania temple_perkunas true
        destroy_buildings lithuania temple_perkunas_castle true
        destroy_buildings lithuania temple_giltine true
        destroy_buildings lithuania temple_giltine_castle true
        
        ;3 - Disband the pagan units
        retire_characters Lithuania priest
        destroy_units Lithuania pagan_unit
        
        ;notify all factions that Lithuania has converted and become Catholic
        historic_event lithuania_converts event/Lithuania_converts.bik
        
        set_event_counter pagan_lithuania 0
        set_event_counter not_pagan_lithuania 1


        ; change teutonic order ai label
        link_faction_ai teutonic_order teutonic_order_non_pagan
        link_faction_ai poland poland_non_pagan
        link_faction_ai lithuania lithuania_non_pagan
        
        terminate_monitor
    
    end_monitor