POLAND

[kaiser29]

Wasn't Stettin under Polish control when the game starts?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Wasn't Stettin under Polish control when the game starts?

The concept of "control" is very shaky if you talk about 12th century
We've decided that it was NOT and now it's independent settlement. However, it's has slavic (ie Polish) faction creator mark (that matters only for the models buildings that are shown).

I have also some doubts about Gdansk (to what extend Bolesław the Wrymouth controlled it?), but it's still Polish in the SSHIP.

[Vladyvid]

There was a difference at that time between the status of Gdansk and Stettin (and their respective duchies). Gdansk became incorporated into the Kingdom of Poland and its administration, and Stettin was a tributary that still retained its own duke.

[j.a.luna]

Jurand here you have a lot of interesant information and pictures about Polish Middle Ages and their army.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0eRNIk-7yI

https://www.youtube.com/user/ThrashingMadPL/playlists

[AlberdoBalsam]

Polish armor from Kodeks Baltazara Behema 1505 ad.

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[j.a.luna]

Polish armor from Kodeks Baltazara Behema 1505 ad.

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It is a good image mate, but Most of the sship players do not reach the XV-XVI century, it would be nice to find resources and images for the XII-XIII-XIV centuries ... and that kostic could continue to improve his unit models even more

[AlberdoBalsam]

12th to 14th century Poland? There are some. I already posted a bit in Kostic thread. First, you have to understand that Poland sort of has two sides. One that is western, which is pretty much the whole Poland and one that is eastern, that of which Masovia was the most defined. There are also some nuances, which i will explain later.

12th century military equipment in Poland. It is the same as in the rest of Europe. This period for the most part in Europe in terms of protective gear was all about long mail hauberks, nasal helms with mail coifs and kite shields. Some people call this "norman" influence, but its really wrong. All these things already existed centuries ago in Europe minus the kite shield, which is also not norman. For the most part, mail hauberks are short-sleeved and leg protection is not used, but exampes of long mail sleeves without mittens and mail chausses or hoses do show up in art. Realistically, limb protection is more of a cavalry thing. Another thing about Poland is that it was the border of catholic european world, so it traded with east as well. There are quite a few Kirpichnikov type 2 helmets found around Poland, not just Masovia. Tridents on those helmets suggest Kievan Rus manufacture. This meant that Poland did trade with rus, but to what extent, i am not the one to tell.

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These are the lake Lednica findings, which give a rough idea how similar Poland was to its western neighbours. These findings are dated 9th to 11th century based on thoughts of different historians, but similar gear persists even longer up to 13th century. There is also a similar helmet from Oloumuc, Moravia, so that counts too.

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Also forgot this one kite shield dated to late 12th century last time. Just edited this in.

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Very similar triangular-like kite shield from Mieszko the old's seal. Late 12th century.

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Kirpichnikov type 2 helmets found in Poland, 11th to 12th centuries.


13th century military equipment in Poland. It is the same as in the rest of Europe. Compared to 12th century, long mail sleeves with mittens are common, mail chaussees or hoses are common. There are helmets with faceplates, then greathelms, but simple nasal helms are still very widespread. I already posted some seals of 13th century Poland in Kostic's thread. Here are they.

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I will try to gather something comprehendsive for 14th century tomorrow.
P.S. Sorry about not posting yesterday. I was kind of lazy and the biggest digitalized manuscript or effigy sites are not working, so i will have to wait till they get back up. I already have some info i can post about 14th century Poland and i could technically edit it later, but its up to you, people.

[AlberdoBalsam]

Alright, since digitalized stuff came back on, lets get over this.

so 14th century military equipment in Poland. 14th century is the time, when armor in Europe, for example, splits into different regional styles or configurations. For Poland, it also splits into the main style and the eastern style, worn in masovian and ruthenian lands. The main style of polish armor was almost exactly the same as german. As you can see, Poland kept using german style armor even in 16th century. There are some nuances, italian-like survivals from the era and so on, but that is rare and interesting.

I would say that 14th century is not an easy topic in Europe as a whole. Changes made in armor were slow, but there were certain points of radical change.

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Take a look at this. 1343 ad german armor of Kuno von Falkenstein. Chainmail is the main protection, besides coat of plates and a bascinet, which are normal in second half of this century. As you can see, its a process, parts of transitional plate come individually. Cervelliere with aventail morphs into bascinet, coat of plates becomes more covering, mobile, you get the idea. Don't get me wrong, this kind of armor configuration was certainly not the case for most of the Europe, but for germans, it was still a thing, they were a bit behind in terms of plate armor development then.

Right then, lets see how polish armor looked like in the first half of the 14th century.

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I'm not sure about this one, but it could be showing polish armor in 1330s. This is a scene of apocalypse, so i don't think if its specified what kind of "enemy" is shown here fighting against Teutonic Order. This shows Gog and Magog with an army, but again, not really speficied that this is Poland for sure. So how does this compare to actual source of armor from Poland of that exact time?

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This is a seal of Boleslav 3rd the Generous, dated 1337. Despite wearing mostly chainmail, just like germans, he is also wearing a greathelm, just like germans... This means that the illumination in the Apocalypse of the Teutonic Order may show polish soldiers, but with wrong helmets, or it may show various pagans which the Order fough. Greathelms were already used in Poland decades before 1330s, i am not even going to post any sources showing that, its obvious. So yeah, up until 1330, armor consisted of mostly chainmail in Poland, but its where it started to take off, but slowly, just like german style of transitional plate.

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You can see that polish armor is german-like, but it is also sometimes more advanced, having plate arm harness.

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There is also this weird covered breastplate / brigandine / mail, which might be italian? Don't know much about it, but its a clear fact that polish armor was not just german in style, it had some spice.


Now about 14th century polish armor in eastern part of the country, mainly Masovia and Galicia. They had more ruthenian and lithuanian parts of armor. There are also parts of byzantine influence, because of the religion, culture and so on. I will post some examples. Think of them what you will. Keep in mind that these are 14th century, masovians wore pretty much the same armor as western Poland back in 13th century, this is just influenced by marriages with ruthenians and lithuanians.

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There are so called pickelhaube bascinets and a cone helmet from 14th century. These are the helmets, which would be worn mostly in eastern Poland. Cone helmet is more of a ruthenian thing, but pickelhaube bascinets actually were popular throughout Poland and Germany. First bascinet is attributed to Teutonic Order, second is from Torun and the cone helmet is from Mielno.

[AlberdoBalsam]

Some other things about 14th century armor in Poland.

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This is a modern reconstruction of one of the seal of Trojden I of Masovia reconstructions. Story goes like this, there was an original seal of Trojden I, but i don't know if it still exists. Maybe lost during WW2 (thanks, germans). anyways, you can see two reconstructions of that seal here. One of them looks like it has that kind of byzantine kettle. That modern image of masovian knight takes into account one of the reconstructions of the seal. In truth, there is no way to know if such helmets were worn in Masovia, because the original source is lost and its 2 reconstructions are different from each other. This kind of helmet is shown in хроника георгия амартола and is shown in one of the lithuanian seals. A couple of these helmets are also found in modern day Russian Federation. Trojden I had ties with lithuanian, but could he have worn this helmet? I don't think anybody can say for sure.


Unsual helmets from 14th century Poland.

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Georgian helmet in Wawel. Maybe worn by some kind of tatar, who bought this in Georgia?

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I have no idea what this is. Maybe tatar helmet? Maybe ruthenian or lithuanian helmet?

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Also the Chelm helmets. They are not weird, just a bit unique. These are Teutonic Order, i think, but i bet this style of helmet was worn all around that area, since i think something similar is found in Russia, if i am not mistaken.

[kostic]

Thanks for your research. I will take it into account in my next projects.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Looks like we haven't made any entry on Poland for 1,5 year... So, here is a pic from a @Macaras' game. Look also at the buildings in Cracow - most were either prepared for the SSHIP, or imported, or just remade.

QK - I played recently a Polish campaign and I think the most difficult moment is around 100-150 turns, you may be attacked by everybody if you are not careful and very reliable and have decent relations with your allies. I made a mistake and took over Halych, which lowered my rep to reliable in the wrong moment when most of my neighbors were at peace with everybody. I was attacked immediately by Germans, Denmark and Kiev, with Lithuanian and Novgorod sending stacks close to my border.. Anyway, I gave some money to HRE for peace, lost two cities to denmark, but one reconquered immediately, and the war with Kiev took long time. Lithuanians were my allies so when my rep went to very reliable they didn't attack me, but attacked Novgorod (probably just to do something with their army) so I was saved. But at one moment I thought I am going to lose 5 cities.
It is good also to have an alliance with the Pope and very good relations, because then when you are attacked from the west, the Pope almost immediately orders them to ceasefire. Even the HRE agrees for peace 100% in that case.

Here is a feedback to a campaign with Poland vh/vh turn 83: Upload here: https://mega.nz/file/HrJ32LxB#A4qIix...piuZLzx7YovxwE
Overall it was very challenging and fun. Around turn 60, a well organized full invasion from Denmark brought me near doom. It took me by surprise, lost Warzawa and Gdansk at one point with three important family members trapped inside. Got one scripted army with a crazy warlike general that basically saved the kingdom. It took about three years to reconquer the lost provinces and it was very close, also with the money going deep into the red and several rebel armies emerging and trying to take advantage of the chaos. Also a temporary excommunication. Now I am almost back to normal but this war hurt me seriously, mostly because of the lost family members. Also, you need a quite healthy economy to survive this. Also, Hungary attacked later and now Lithuania tries again, but this seems to be manageable.
Best regards QK

[SpartanUK76]

Hey guys, I have been having a problem in my game playing as Poland where Vilnius riots and becomes Lithuania again I besiege Vilnius on that turn and then end my turn where the extra Lithuanian army (that spawns on rebellion) attack me. I have fought the battle three time as it always crashes at the end of the battle, Any idea for a fix?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Hey guys, I have been having a problem in my game playing as Poland where Vilnius riots and becomes Lithuania again I besiege Vilnius on that turn and then end my turn where the extra Lithuanian army (that spawns on rebellion) attack me. I have fought the battle three time as it always crashes at the end of the battle, Any idea for a fix?

aaaaaa, this is the new script in August 2023, this might be buggy. You're a true tester, if it comforts you. Otherwise - I'm sorry, it's a test built.
It's mentioned here as " the Prussian raids - in 5 player's provinces, plus a 'settlement rebels' system in Twangste."
The goal is to prevent Poland expanding unhistorically to Prussia too early. It should happen rather after the arrival of the Teutonic Knights, so 13th century. I think there's a system of warnings (pop-out windows), what do you think? Have you been warned enough?
I have tested it but not with fighting a battle, right. Have you got a save?
This is quite important for me as I'd like to make similar ones to Wales, Alamut, Ani etc.

[SpartanUK76]

Hey, thanks for your response. I don't mind being a true tester for Poland and I like the Prussian raids idea. I have noticed the raids pop up in my territories and have just left them be as they don't bother me enough to form an army to take them out. And yes the pop outs have been great, although when you are referring to the Teutonic knights do you mean the unlock of the knight hospitaller buildings and the ritterbruder building in Gdansk? at around the 13th century. I like the idea of the Prussian raids and the Teutonic knights, the pop outs ae great, I think if it is possible it could be worth making 1 strong army for the prussian raid to make it more of a threat to deal with for the player, as for the teutonic knights I don't know what could be done with them as I imagine their history could be quite difficult to play out in ME2. And yes I have a save to share. Just as a heads up the save is right before I engage in the battle so fo may have to retreat, I will also send the autosave to you as I think that is before I engage in battle.

Personal save: https://mega.nz/file/tdcQlJbC#UZMdp4...b1CV0FtDiOypSQ
Autosave: https://mega.nz/file/ANMggJaD#vopRtE...bCPxIX1obVKx2g

Thanks

[Edofcan]

Hi,
me again, for the last time.
Now I started a game as Denmark on vh/vh (SSHIP 0.98, August version).
The upload is from turn 96 with 15 regions and an income of 31k.

My plan was to take out Norway and conquer Magdeburg and then slowly build up while defending against the HRE. Later I wanted to go for the British Isles and only take the victory provinces at the Baltic Sea once I had my cathedral to get the crown (for which I sadly had to transform my well located castle in Roskilde into a town) - so as to not have too many fronts to fight on.

The first part worked fine: I took out Norway, was excommunicated for that, but I had to be fast. As expected, the HRE attacked Ribe and Lübeck, but as it was early in the game, it had no reserves and so Magdeburg and Bremen were easy pickings for the naval counter-strike of my expeditionary forces. At which point the pope beautifully intervened and the war with the HRE ended. Now I could build up my defences in Bremen and Magdeburg, the only castle the HRE had had in the North.

However, then Poland attacked. First it went for Danish Lübeck, then it took neutral Brandenburg and attacked Danish Magdeburg as well. I had hoped leaving Stettin and Brandenburg to Poland would satisfy them and it would look for a fight elsewhere, but no, it continued its attacks relentlessly, even to the point that it was excommunicated by the pope. So I had to take Danzig to split up its forces, and after that Brandenburg and Stettin. Blessed (pagan) Lithuania then attacked Poland from the east and - I couldn't believe my luck - proposed an alliance with me, which I of course fullheartedly accepted.

Now, as in the previous game as the HRE, I was confronted with endless high quality Polish stacks and will have to eliminate Poland again. I'd probably take Posen first, then conquer Olmütz and give it to Hungary, and Plotz to Lithuania. Maybe that way I don't have to conquer all the country and expose myself to many new neighbours. I surely hope so.
But I am not sure I really want to continue this game, it's more work than fun.


Every country in Europe has its weaknesses: Portugal, Castille and Aragon have to fight the Muslims in their backyard. England keeps most of its forces on the British Isles and never really commits to the continent. France has many enemies early on and its stacks consist mostly of weak spear and axe militia. Same for the HRE. Denmark, Norway and Scotland have no cav early on. Hungary is surrounded by two empires. Serbia has weak units and a hard location. The Italian states are crowded and once you have a full army there, you can safely take out one city after the other.
But what about Poland? To the east is weak Lithuania; to the south, Hungary is usually occupied by Serbia, the ERE, and the Cumans (but if it can take Olmütz early, it does become a danger to Poland, as I saw in a previous game); to the west, Germany has battles at all fronts.

The real problem, though, is that Poland has a perfect unit roster:
Its professional Eastern Spearmen have, compared to standard spearmen, added abilities vs cav; plus they get heavy armour.
Its elite infantry are axemen and thus infantry and armour killers.
It has strong cav plus an extra source of charging cav, so double the amount than others, and this shows in its stack compositions.
It has a large family tree, so many generals.
While most others use cheap archer levies, its stacks usually contain professional archers.
Its woodmen are better than the standard axemen, plus these get a bonus against cav.
It as access to a variety of javelin throwers, so again more available sooner.
Its one weakness is likely against horse archers and horse javs, as also seen how they seem to suck when fighting against Hungary.
As all these fine troops cost lots of money, a human Poland player will likely have to diversify and use cheaper units. However, the AI, at least on vh, doesn't have to worry about that problem. It has the money and the elite troops, so it rightly wants to put them into action. The HRE in this game sometimes probed but always backed off when it saw my garrisons. Poland knew it had a good chance so never backed off.

My conclusion after the last two games, one as the HRE, one as Denmark, is that Poland is too powerful. Playing as any neighbour of Poland, the first task must be to neutralize them. Which gets repetitive and boring after a while.
Then again, I may be wrong.

As a last word: please don't get me wrong, I love your mod, its much better than anything I have ever played in MTW and one of my favourite mods of all time! So thanks again for this, much appreciated!