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Thread: Sacred Band Armor

  1. #1

    Default Sacred Band Armor

    https://imgur.com/GbzgULP

    The Sacred band seems to use a couple unique pieces of armor. There is the scale armor which looks pretty interesting, but then there is also something that looks like some sort of lamellar (It just kind of looks like it, I don't really know what it is). What is the historical evidence for these armor types?

    In addition, while I love the unit, I think they sort of drop out of historical record after getting destroyed by Agathocles before the time period of the mod. Their unit card information mentions this, and considers their continued existence in some form as a possibility rather than confirmed. As I said, I love them and wouldn't want to see them go, but why was the decision made to include them if there isn't anything supporting their continued existence?
    Last edited by Hirtius; June 18, 2019 at 08:33 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Sacred Band Armor

    The greeks already incorporated scales into their Linothorax panoply and even some had a full scale armour (like in the black sea or the middle east) and Lamellar panoplies were also used in Italy by the Etruscans.

    It isn't so difficult to understand that the Carthaginians copied these panoplies from the Greeks just like they copied the hoplite phalanx from them and especially since Carthage was the largest commercial empire in the mediterranean at that time.

  3. #3
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Sacred Band Armor

    The Sacred band seems to use a couple unique pieces of armor. There is the scale armor which looks pretty interesting, but then there is also something that looks like some sort of lamellar (It just kind of looks like it, I don't really know what it is). What is the historical evidence for these armor types?
    As NapoleonMaster said, this is clearly based on depictions from Greek, Etruscan and Roman art. One of them look like the Mars of Todi.

    In addition, while I love the unit, I think they sort of drop out of historical record after getting destroyed by Agathocles before the time period of the mod. Their unit card information mentions this, and considers their continued existence in some form as a possibility rather than confirmed. As I said, I love them and wouldn't want to see them go, but why was the decision made to include them if there isn't anything supporting their continued existence?
    This is not my area, but at least they are transparent about their choice. It's a game and there is really a lack of evidences in general for the Carthaginians. They made a choice probably for the balances among the factions.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Sacred Band Armor

    Thanks for the responses. The interesting think about the scales to me was that it covered most of the armor including the shoulder straps. Most of what I’ve seen related to the Greeks is mainly only around the torso. The lamellar was surprising, I had no idea the Etruscans used lamellar like on the Mars of Todi. But I don’t think it’s on the Tvrm Pes Rasna, only the Sacred Band, so I wonder what evidence they saw for putting it on this unit in particular?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Sacred Band Armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirtius View Post

    In addition, while I love the unit, I think they sort of drop out of historical record after getting destroyed by Agathocles before the time period of the mod. Their unit card information mentions this, and considers their continued existence in some form as a possibility rather than confirmed. As I said, I love them and wouldn't want to see them go, but why was the decision made to include them if there isn't anything supporting their continued existence?
    They were not destroyed by Agathocles. The army they were in retreated and they retreated as well. Sources don't speak about a "sacred band" but more of the wealthiest of the Carthaginians with the best armours and weapons. There isn't anything supporting their continued existence as a unit because we only have a few Roman and Greek sources on Carthaginian military history. But since this unit was composed of the wealthiest Carthaginian citizens you can still use it for roleplaying in Africa and Sicily since Carthaginians continued to fight on wars after Agathocles, especially against Regulus invasion of Africa (two battles), they were also probably used during that time to fight the Libyans/Numidians since the writings speak about those peoples attacking the Carthaginians at the same time as Regulus invasion and causing even more damage to the Carthaginians.
    After that, we have Carthaginians fighting during the mercenary revolt (various battles), at Zama and later, at the siege of Carthage, all citizens were on arms. Therefore, Carthaginian citizens continued to fight in wars after Agathocles and while the texts don't mention a "sacred band" type of unit present, we can presume that some of the wealthiest Carthaginians were also fighting, and that's why this unit makes sense for Carthage.

    Of course, employing it outside of Africa and Sicily is not very correct but who am I to judge? I love to use them in Iberia with the tribes

  6. #6

    Default Re: Sacred Band Armor

    The Etruscans had lamellar armour and the evidence is the statuille of "Mars of Todi".



    And for the Carthaginian's use of lamellar armour :


  7. #7

    Default Re: Sacred Band Armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    They were not destroyed by Agathocles. The army they were in retreated and they retreated as well. Sources don't speak about a "sacred band" but more of the wealthiest of the Carthaginians with the best armours and weapons. There isn't anything supporting their continued existence as a unit because we only have a few Roman and Greek sources on Carthaginian military history. But since this unit was composed of the wealthiest Carthaginian citizens you can still use it for roleplaying in Africa and Sicily since Carthaginians continued to fight on wars after Agathocles, especially against Regulus invasion of Africa (two battles), they were also probably used during that time to fight the Libyans/Numidians since the writings speak about those peoples attacking the Carthaginians at the same time as Regulus invasion and causing even more damage to the Carthaginians.
    After that, we have Carthaginians fighting during the mercenary revolt (various battles), at Zama and later, at the siege of Carthage, all citizens were on arms. Therefore, Carthaginian citizens continued to fight in wars after Agathocles and while the texts don't mention a "sacred band" type of unit present, we can presume that some of the wealthiest Carthaginians were also fighting, and that's why this unit makes sense for Carthage.

    Of course, employing it outside of Africa and Sicily is not very correct but who am I to judge? I love to use them in Iberia with the tribes
    I was thinking the same, that it would just be representative of wealthy citizens. But Sacred Band seems to denote a specific unit. Where does the idea of the “Sacred Band” come from for Carthage if the sources don’t mention it? I know Sacred Band of Thebes and all that, but why apply that sort of name and implication to Carthage?

    As for NapoleonMaster, the source you gave mentions that there isn’t any evidence for it, just speculation based on Etruscan usage.

  8. #8
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Sacred Band Armor

    I think Lusitanio's argument is quite sound given that continued use of the "Sacred Band" can at the very least represent the continued use of wealthier and elite Carthaginian citizen soldiers in rare circumstances, such as when the Maghreb region or Tunisia itself was threatened by Rome or Numidia. Also, if the Etruscans in central Italy were using lamellar armor as proven by their sculpted visual arts, there's no way the nearby Carthaginians weren't using it. Think about it. Lamellar was an Eastern/Oriental convention clearly imported or adopted from West Asia, i.e. the Assyrians, and most likely first brought to the Western Mediterranean by the initial Phoenician colonists. There's no need to have direct evidence for its use by the Carthaginians in that case. They're clearly the ones who transmitted it to the Etruscans. The Greeks certainly didn't do that.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Sacred Band Armor

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I think Lusitanio's argument is quite sound given that continued use of the "Sacred Band" can at the very least represent the continued use of wealthier and elite Carthaginian citizen soldiers in rare circumstances, such as when the Maghreb region or Tunisia itself was threatened by Rome or Numidia. Also, if the Etruscans in central Italy were using lamellar armor as proven by their sculpted visual arts, there's no way the nearby Carthaginians weren't using it. Think about it. Lamellar was an Eastern/Oriental convention clearly imported or adopted from West Asia, i.e. the Assyrians, and most likely first brought to the Western Mediterranean by the initial Phoenician colonists. There's no need to have direct evidence for its use by the Carthaginians in that case. They're clearly the ones who transmitted it to the Etruscans. The Greeks certainly didn't do that.
    I agree with Lusitanio, but regarding the lamellar, it can’t be said that it came from the Phoenicians and that they had it without evidence. Is there any Phoenician homeland example of lamellar armor? If not, how does the Etruscan type compare to examples in the East?

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