2019 Greek Legislative Elections

[Alastor]

- Things are getting progressively better so less young people are drawn to their ranks.

Less people overall voted for GD, but still they had their highest percentages among the young. If people indeed saw an improvement that wouldn't be the case. I would attribute their fall more on their novelty wearing off (which means it was a good thing they entered parliament) and on the relentless campaign the media-political complex has waged against them (justly or not).

Either way, I don't care about GD. Nor am I happy with this result. ND indeed at ~40%. Greeks will never learn. And the democratic system in Greece continues to bleed legitimacy fast. Only like 55% of all people voted, this is partly the fault of the state, which hinders some groups from voting and partly a byproduct of society's general resignation when it comes to public matters. Nothing can or will change they believe and they continue to prove it. I really wonder sometimes if I should be wishing that democracy finally collapses in Greece, rather than see it fester and rot that way. If a return to authoritarianism is needed to wake up people, mobilize them again. So that the cycle may continue. Dangerous thoughts indeed.

The only positive IMO is that Varoufakis is back in parliament. Not that he commanded enough of a percentage to change anything, or even stay relevant come 2025. But at least there is that.

[Idomeneas]

In my opinion, Velopoulos does not sincerely believe the crazy stuff he advertises. He's just an opportunist salesman, building his career and business upon the superstitions and ignorance of a portion of the electorate.

Velopoulos is a Greek version of Alex Jones, turning into politics. He is what you would get if you threw in a mixer an opportunist, a clown, a hard salesman, a populist and a cospiracy theorist.

[Kyriakos]

In no way is Vel as showman-type talented - or funny - as Alex Jones. Vel is generally disgusting

[Idomeneas]

In no way is Vel as showman-type talented - or funny - as Alex Jones. Vel is generally disgusting

to be fair the best Greek Alex Jones is Liakopoulos

[Kyriakos]

Likely, although I actually never have watched any full show of his. I had watched some shows of Vel in... 1999!!!

[Basil II the B.S]

Less people overall voted for GD, but still they had their highest percentages among the young. If people indeed saw an improvement that wouldn't be the case. I would attribute their fall more on their novelty wearing off (which means it was a good thing they entered parliament) and on the relentless campaign the media-political complex has waged against them (justly or not).

Either way, I don't care about GD. Nor am I happy with this result. ND indeed at ~40%. Greeks will never learn. And the democratic system in Greece continues to bleed legitimacy fast. Only like 55% of all people voted, this is partly the fault of the state, which hinders some groups from voting and partly a byproduct of society's general resignation when it comes to public matters. Nothing can or will change they believe and they continue to prove it. I really wonder sometimes if I should be wishing that democracy finally collapses in Greece, rather than see it fester and rot that way. If a return to authoritarianism is needed to wake up people, mobilize them again. So that the cycle may continue. Dangerous thoughts indeed.

The only positive IMO is that Varoufakis is back in parliament. Not that he commanded enough of a percentage to change anything, or even stay relevant come 2025. But at least there is that.

What's positive about it? The guy is a snake oil salesman. He's still promising ''another EU'', while telling you to vote globalist Emmanuel Macron over Salvini. When it comes down to hardliners and it's exactly like that with Macron, it's his way or the highway. Varoufakis does not have the guts to chose the highway, so it's Macron's way, just like it was Merkel's way.

That's basic negotiating tactic. You have to be ready to walk away and burn the whole building down, otherwise things are not going to change. Same way Theresa May failed to get a better deal out of the EU. She wasn't really to leave without a deal, so she got a crap one.

It's also pretty interesting that Greeks survived Persian, Ottoman and Nazi occupation but they will not survive the EU one, and that's because the vast majority refuse to see the EU as the hostile organization it is. This is also vastly responsibility of the Greek elite anyway, starting with Varoufakis.

[Alastor]

What's positive about it? The guy is a snake oil salesman. He's still promising ''another EU'', while telling you to vote globalist Emmanuel Macron over Salvini. When it comes down to hardliners and it's exactly like that with Macron, it's his way or the highway. Varoufakis does not have the guts to chose the highway, so it's Macron's way, just like it was Merkel's way.

That's basic negotiating tactic. You have to be ready to walk away and burn the whole building down, otherwise things are not going to change. Same way Theresa May failed to get a better deal out of the EU. She wasn't really to leave without a deal, so she got a crap one.

It's also pretty interesting that Greeks survived Persian, Ottoman and Nazi occupation but they will not survive the EU one, and that's because the vast majority refuse to see the EU as the hostile organization it is. This is also vastly responsibility of the Greek elite anyway, starting with Varoufakis.

It's positive that there is a group of people that care enough about politics still to search for sth more hopeful and vote for that, instead of voting for the son of the guy their fathers' used to vote for or sth along those lines. He also happens to be someone whose speeches I have actually listened to and agree more than disagree with. Yes he is discussing a "new EU" and we damn sure need one. Macron at least pretends to want some positive new change. Salvini is little more than a reactionary.

And I dont' know what you mean about "being ready to walk away". Lets not forget that Varoufakis supported the referendum result. Tsipras turned tail.

And I wouldn't be so quick to write off the Greeks. This failed democracy for sure. But Greeks in general, that's an exaggeration.

[Basil II the B.S]

Macron's policies:
-slashed wealth tax on the super rich
-implemented (then removed because of protests) a green tax that cripples those who can't afford electric cars, can't rely on public transport, meaning the non-urban lower class, which is 70% of the country.

Even François Hollande called him ''the President of the Super-Rich''. Macron's policies are essentially: more immigration and more freedom of movement for capital, both of which hurt anyone who's not a capital owner. That's what has been killing the Western middle class for the past 30 years and he's tripling down on that. If that's what you want, go for it.

Back to Greece and the EU, what you need to understand is that the model of the EU is ''ordoliberalism'', aka supranational technocratic governance. It's created so that government action is limited and redistribution doesn't work. This is why leftwing parties consistently fail while in government and have to adapt their policy framework to that of the free market right. There's simply no alternative. The EU can't be reformed. The only ''successful'' reform would be to eliminate 2 of the 4 freedoms and those are indeed freedom of movement of people and capital. The EU leaders will never do it.

You look at what they say, to them the EU is doing great. They don't give a crap about the lower class, they love immigrants because they are cheaper economically and less demanding politically, they also loathe Western culture. There's simply no solution. These people aren't going to wake up until they face the harsh reality they created, but they are shielded from it because they live in bubbles.

The Greek ''austerity plan'' is going to start phasing out in 2034 and will end in 2054 or something like that... provided there's no recession. Who makes a plan like that? It's crazy. You lost 10% of your population to emigration, replaced them with Syrians, people committed suicide, kids were starved and you still don't want to quit? The EU membership for Greece has been an unmitigated catastrophe.

[PointOfViewGun]

An interesting trivia story; the new prime minister's father, former prime minister, Konstantinos Mitsotakis, was arrested in 1967 by the junta of the time. However, with the help of the Turkish foreign minister he managed to escape to Turkey with his family, and then moved to Paris till his return in 1974, when the junta collapsed. Kyriakos Mitsotakis was just a baby when he passed through Turkey.

[alhoon]

I'm a bit more skeptical towards your "generation" reasoning though. I suspect that many collaborators had already integrated into more mainstream conservative parties, while the Golden Dawn used to actually be disproportionately more popular among the youth.

Don't get me wrong, GD was far more popular among the youth. As I said, the Collaborators and Collaborator-minded people are like 0.3-0.5%.
But I have an uncle that is like that (extreme anti-communist) and he was happy to promote GD. He was also happy they killed a communist and was glad Kassidiaris was involved in the assassination attempt of a communist intellectual some years ago. He was also glad he started beating up an old lady on national television. I haven't discussed with him about Michaloliakos admiration on Hitler.

An interesting trivia story; the new prime minister's father, former prime minister, Konstantinos Mitsotakis, was arrested in 1967 by the junta of the time. However, with the help of the Turkish foreign minister he managed to escape to Turkey with his family, and then moved to Paris till his return in 1974, when the junta collapsed. Kyriakos Mitsotakis was just a baby when he passed through Turkey.

Pffft. "Arrested". It's more likely he was informed by his powerful friends to get out and he decided to dramatize this.

[Kritias]

One hundred and twenty hours have passed since we elected Nea Demokratia and the foreclosure people have still to show. So, what have they been doing?

Well, let me tell you!

1. The PM expressly forbade his party members from appointing their relatives in the state apparatus. He then went on and appointed his nephew as director to the PM's Office. On public payroll.

2. The government was elected on the premise of a small, agile government with cutting down the excess positions. 51 people have been sworn in as ministers, vice-ministers.

3. APE-MPE (the central news dissemination agency), ERT (the National radio-television agency) and EYP (the greek intelligence agency) have been taken up as the PM's personal purview. Quite unprecedented.

4. The vice-minister of labor is a dude with criminal record on breaking labor laws.

5. The Directorate for Equality has been annihilated to a sub-department of the ministry of labor.

6. The Ministry of Migratory Policy has been paused and its personnel moved to the Ministry for Civil Protection (the Police).

7. The vice-minister of Sports has been photographed on multiple occasions chilling with alleged baron of drugs (under investigation) and owner of the most popular team in Greece. He releases sport newspaper with the challenge to 'respect the biggest party in the country, the fans of the team'.

8. The Minister-elect of Economics boasted positive increase in the stock exchange. It has dropped by 4.2% in five days.

9. Israel rightly has protested the posting of two known anti-semites in the government, in ministerial positions.

10. The Israeli News are thriving with correct accounts of how the government has a past of harboring in its gulfs nazi collaborators, junta jugend and other very, very, very shady characters.

11. The news agencies around the globe have been decrying the shameless media collusion to Nea Democratia, from Guardian to Liberation to New York Times.

12. The Prespes Deal has been already ratified by the Nea Demokratia too, if Kathimerini is to be believed. They were elected because they decried it and promised to revise it.

13. Angela Merkel has revealed that the PM has given his promise to 'quickly pass all necessary legislation'. She didn't tattle on what these laws would contain.

14. Officer of the Riot Police urged Mr. Mitsotakis to 'rule the country as you damn like, the riot police are behind you and WE ARE the State.' Member of the Party, disavowed for improper statements. Still in Police force.

15. A day prior to the elections, son of known anti-semite writer stayed briefly in Exarchia square (less than ten minutes from eyewitnesses). Vows they will clear the square from racketeers, anarchists and other scum of the earth plaguing the country. Checks behind his back if he's been spotted twice in a 40 second video. Says he doesn't feel safe to walk there.

16. Golden Dawn trials still lagging on, several cases of murdered migrants from 'patriots'. A few Greeks. A pregant woman beaten to pulp years ago for not saluting a squad of golden dawn members passing by.

Conclusion: The country is saved. The future is here.


PS: What happened after the Occupation and who exactly were the people who took up the state with the UK's and the US' blessings is beyond dispute historically. Oliver Stone's the Untold History of the US has a special segment about Greece in two episodes for those who are lazy readers. As was the fact that General Papagos used those same people, as Konstantinos Karamanlis after him in the National Radical Union and later Nea Demokratia. Who himself was accused as a nazi collaborator by Max Merten. Known post portem as 'Ethnarch', the Father of the Country.
These people formed and to some extend still form the core of the party and a considerable chunk of its voters. Hold on to your cloud, you'll fall [modified saying].

PS2: 700,000 voters migrated from Golden Dawn to somewhere. In these elections, Nea Democratia won over a surplus of about the same number compared to 2015. Not all of them were GD voters, obviously, but it makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[Basil II the B.S]

Next time you can always pick someone who promises to reverse austerity, ends up implmenting a worse one, kills kids, sells states assets, forces people into suicide or emigration, replaces them with immigrants and on top of everything sells out the national heritage as well.

[Kritias]

Next time you can always pick someone who promises to reverse austerity, ends up implementing a worse one, kills kids, sells states assets, forces people into suicide or emigration, replaces them with immigrants and on top of everything sells out the national heritage as well.

Patience, Basil, patience. It's only been five days.

[Basil II the B.S]

I hate ND as much as the next guy because they bankrupted the country and lead it into this mess to begin with, but let's stop pretending Syriza proved to be any better. I mean, thanks to Tsipras we now have to swallow globalists celebrating ''see? Pointless to vote for alternatives, just vote our guys, you have no options''.

The kind of smug that make KKE/GD tempting.

[Kyriakos]

One hundred and twenty hours have passed since we elected Nea Demokratia and the foreclosure people have still to show. So, what have they been doing?

Well, let me tell you!

1. The PM expressly forbade his party members from appointing their relatives in the state apparatus. He then went on and appointed his nephew as director to the PM's Office. On public payroll.

2. The government was elected on the premise of a small, agile government with cutting down the excess positions. 51 people have been sworn in as ministers, vice-ministers.

3. APE-MPE (the central news dissemination agency), ERT (the National radio-television agency) and EYP (the greek intelligence agency) have been taken up as the PM's personal purview. Quite unprecedented.

4. The vice-minister of labor is a dude with criminal record on breaking labor laws.

5. The Directorate for Equality has been annihilated to a sub-department of the ministry of labor.

6. The Ministry of Migratory Policy has been paused and its personnel moved to the Ministry for Civil Protection (the Police).

7. The vice-minister of Sports has been photographed on multiple occasions chilling with alleged baron of drugs (under investigation) and owner of the most popular team in Greece. He releases sport newspaper with the challenge to 'respect the biggest party in the country, the fans of the team'.

8. The Minister-elect of Economics boasted positive increase in the stock exchange. It has dropped by 4.2% in five days.

9. Israel rightly has protested the posting of two known anti-semites in the government, in ministerial positions.

10. The Israeli News are thriving with correct accounts of how the government has a past of harboring in its gulfs nazi collaborators, junta jugend and other very, very, very shady characters.

11. The news agencies around the globe have been decrying the shameless media collusion to Nea Democratia, from Guardian to Liberation to New York Times.

12. The Prespes Deal has been already ratified by the Nea Demokratia too, if Kathimerini is to be believed. They were elected because they decried it and promised to revise it.

13. Angela Merkel has revealed that the PM has given his promise to 'quickly pass all necessary legislation'. She didn't tattle on what these laws would contain.

14. Officer of the Riot Police urged Mr. Mitsotakis to 'rule the country as you damn like, the riot police are behind you and WE ARE the State.' Member of the Party, disavowed for improper statements. Still in Police force.

15. A day prior to the elections, son of known anti-semite writer stayed briefly in Exarchia square (less than ten minutes from eyewitnesses). Vows they will clear the square from racketeers, anarchists and other scum of the earth plaguing the country. Checks behind his back if he's been spotted twice in a 40 second video. Says he doesn't feel safe to walk there.

16. Golden Dawn trials still lagging on, several cases of murdered migrants from 'patriots'. A few Greeks. A pregant woman beaten to pulp years ago for not saluting a squad of golden dawn members passing by.

Conclusion: The country is saved. The future is here.


PS: What happened after the Occupation and who exactly were the people who took up the state with the UK's and the US' blessings is beyond dispute historically. Oliver Stone's the Untold History of the US has a special segment about Greece in two episodes for those who are lazy readers. As was the fact that General Papagos used those same people, as Konstantinos Karamanlis after him in the National Radical Union and later Nea Demokratia. Who himself was accused as a nazi collaborator by Max Merten. Known post portem as 'Ethnarch', the Father of the Country.
These people formed and to some extend still form the core of the party and a considerable chunk of its voters. Hold on to your cloud, you'll fall [modified saying].

PS2: 700,000 voters migrated from Golden Dawn to somewhere. In these elections, Nea Democratia won over a surplus of about the same number compared to 2015. Not all of them were GD voters, obviously, but it makes you wonder, doesn't it?

No one claims ND is a good party. It was elected cause it is just better than the absolute garbage & clown collection that Syriza was - which isn't that difficult to achieve.
You may want to get over the civil war, btw, it gets boring and is one of the reasons nothing progresses here.

[Basil II the B.S]

The funny thing is that it was really hard to do worse than ND/Pasok and somehow Syriza managed to be so bad that it made ND appealing.

[Kyriakos]

The funny thing is that it was really hard to do worse than ND/Pasok and somehow Syriza managed to be so bad that it made ND appealing.

Exactly.

[Kritias]

You may want to get over the civil war, btw, it gets boring and is one of the reasons nothing progresses here.

Your obvious derailment effort here aside, you did not refute that Nea Demokratia was at a point filled with nazi collaborators, ultra-nationalists and other shady types, and that Nea Demokratia still provides refuge for these people in 2019.

I'm sorry to hear that history is boring to you. Especially your own country's history. Shameful.

Maybe you'd like to know that Mr. Mitsotakis' house in Crete was the place where the great powers signed the island's independence in 1878. It was their family's house since then. If you think that Mitsotakis family draws no political and economic power from what was done by their previous generations, you are simply misguiding yourself and others. Same principle for what happened with the families that collaborated with the invaders in WW2 up to today.

Next time you can always pick someone who promises to reverse austerity, ends up implementing a worse one, kills kids, sells states assets, forces people into suicide or emigration, replaces them with immigrants and on top of everything sells out the national heritage as well.

You have somehow managed to fuse together Nea Demokratia, PASOK, Papadimos' technocratic government and SYRIZA in some sort of single government. Impressive. Also, don't think I didn't notice the conspirator's white genocide theory you threw in there too. You either have no idea what you're talking about, or you do and you try to trump up the populist card on purpose. Shameful.

The funny thing is that it was really hard to do worse than ND/Pasok and somehow Syriza managed to be so bad that it made ND appealing.

And the apparent collusion of the media in trumping up Nea Demokratia these eight years had no factor in the appeal?

You seem to defend Nea Demokratia in a rather funny way. If we end up saying, 'at least they are not worse than the others,' then we have a serious political problem in our hands. Saying that the events that shaped modern Greece and its policies are boring is also very problematic. Especially when you repeat the ND arguments throughout the thread, Kyriakos. I would like to see what justifies the 'anarcho-communist' comments you have made earlier in this thread, for example.

Don't think I'm giving SYRIZA a pass, either. They had just to do better than Nea Demokratia and Pasok and they would be re-elected for years to come. Instead they tried to do everything at once, to no one's benefit. There's no one in Greece who thinks SYRIZA did a decent job. Not by a long shot. Add to that the fact that people gave way more chances to SYRIZA than any other party and they shoved them down the drain. But that doesn't mean Nea Demokratia having the power to govern again, a party that harbored and keeps harboring actual neo-nazis, anti-semites, crooks and all the lovely things you can imagine isn't a catastrophe.

And I honestly am dumbfounded how you can say, 'oh, at least they will be better than the others.' Maybe it will be so. But you are passing the power back to families who actually colluded with foreign invaders against their own people. And you think yourselves as patriotic to do so because communism or some crap like that, as if that was still a thing. And when I raise the fact. you have the gall to say its boring you. Jesus, man.

Open a god damn book and see what happened in the place you live.

[Basil II the B.S]

I'm not defending ND. They are garbage. They are traitors and they ruined the country. Syriza simply did worse.

[Kritias]

I'm not defending ND. They are garbage. They are traitors and they ruined the country. Syriza simply did worse.

How did they do worse? Give me facts.