View Poll Results: For which party would you vote?

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  • New Democracy (Right-wing)

    1 8.33%
  • SYRIZA (Center-left)

    1 8.33%
  • KINAL (Center)

    0 0%
  • KKE (Communism)

    2 16.67%
  • Golden Dawn (Neo-Nazism)

    1 8.33%
  • Greek Solution (Far-right)

    2 16.67%
  • MeRa25 (Left-wing)

    4 33.33%
  • Union of Centrists (Center)

    0 0%
  • Other (Please, specify)

    1 8.33%
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Thread: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

  1. #81
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post

    You seem to defend Nea Demokratia in a rather funny way. If we end up saying, 'at least they are not worse than the others,' then we have a serious political problem in our hands.

    We should say that, cause that is what happened...
    Besides, that was also what happened with Syriza being elected in 2014. Do you think the people magically started being Syriza? I voted for it in 2014 (I have obviously regretted it after their disgusting u-turn in the referendum).
    I hope Syriza returns to its traditional 3% of the vote, cause that is exactly where it belongs and the part of the population it actually expresses.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  2. #82
    Kritias's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    We should say that, cause that is what happened...
    Besides, that was also what happened with Syriza being elected in 2014. Do you think the people magically started being Syriza? I voted for it in 2014 (I have obviously regretted it after their disgusting u-turn in the referendum).
    I hope Syriza returns to its traditional 3% of the vote, cause that is exactly where it belongs and the part of the population it actually expresses.
    SYRIZA was elected in 2015, January and then again in 2015, September two months after the kolotumba. It's not as if they did the kolotumba and kept governing. They went to elections, and won. Because that's how desperate people were at the point. FYI, I didn't vote for them either time.

    https://ekloges.ypes.gr/

    Get your facts straight. And again: how were they worse that the catastrophe of 2009-2013 for example. Facts and figures, please.


  3. #83
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    SYRIZA was elected in 2015, January and then again in 2015, September two months after the kolotumba. It's not as if they did the kolotumba and kept governing. They went to elections, and won. Because that's how desperate people were at the point. FYI, I didn't vote for them either time.

    https://ekloges.ypes.gr/

    Get your facts straight. And again: how were they worse that the catastrophe of 2009-2013 for example. Facts and figures, please.
    Oh, so it wasn't 2014 but 2015, January. Are you trying to be funny or just obtuse?
    Anyway, no reason to carry this one, I don't care in the slightest.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  4. #84
    Kritias's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Oh, so it wasn't 2014 but 2015, January. Are you trying to be funny or just obtuse?
    Anyway, no reason to carry this one, I don't care in the slightest.
    I'm not trying to be obtuse, funny, or incendiary. But if you don't recall when something happened, then why should I or anyone else really take you at your word that something even happened? You're presenting opinions, not facts.

    Pick and choose what really bothers you. But do present facts, figures and correct dates. Otherwise say you just don't like them and be done with it because you don't fool anybody.


  5. #85
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    In other news, Jerusalem has voiced its concerns over two notorious Antisemites, Voridis and Geordiadis, gaining ministerial positions (Ministry of Agriculture and of Development and Investment respectively). It's obviously a purely symbolic initiative with zero negative repercussions for the commercial partnership between the two Mediterranean countries, but their presence in the government unnecessarily damages the bourgeois profile and global prestige of New Democracy. Meanwhile, in France, there is a comical feud between the leftist newspaper Libération and Papadimitriou, a right-wing MP. Apparently infuriated by the not very flattering description of the new Prime-Minister, Papadimitriou accused several foreign correspondents of smoking hashish together with SYRIZA officials and suggested that Libération is owned by Jewish bankers, the Rothschild family to be precise (a factually mistaken claim), who also, acccording to the MP, heavily profited from the Greek debt crisis...
    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    SYRIZA was elected in 2015, January and then again in 2015, September two months after the kolotumba. It's not as if they did the kolotumba and kept governing. They went to elections, and won. Because that's how desperate people were at the point.
    They did won, but with a significant descrease in votes, as many disillusioned citizens presumably refused to participate in the elections. As I said previously, I understand and agree with your argument that the SYRIZA's popularity suffered remarkably from the fact that it governmed in a similarly inefficient and amateurish manner to that of its predecessors, but the effect of the kolotoumba cannot be underestimated either. His decision to hold the elections so quickly following his ''treasonus'' but unsurprising surrender to his European and international interlocutors was a brilliant tactical move. A large portion of the society had not yet digested his complete reversal, while the opposition, including most importantly the MPs who refused to recognize the concessions, lack the time to organise a productive campaign. This is why I suspect that the consequences of the kolotoumba are not totally reflected upon the results of the September 2015 elections.

    Regarding the reluctance of the majority of Greeks to find and endorse a ''competent'' party, I think that the blame mainly lies with the society and not really with the political system. It's my impression from the 2015 negotiations and even the debate over the issue here in Total War Center, that many Greeks, including the ''charismatic'' Minister of Finances fail to understand how the economy, diplomacy and politics really function. SYRIZA itself triumphed (initially), because it heavily invested on the delusions of a large portion of the public, who genuinely believed that there are easy solutions to difficult problems, that a return to past and idealised prosperity is perfectly possible, without the need for major sacrifices. In my opinion, these surrealistic expectations pose a great danger and essentially guarantee that lucrative opportunities will always exist for ruthless populists, from Tsipras to Velopoulos and Varoufakis. Hopefully, the lessons of the 2015 debacle can gradually lead to political maturity and ideological consistency.

  6. #86
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Yes, like they led to maturity in England, Austria or the rest of Eu.
    You can only vote for what exists, whether it is crooks here, loons in Turkey, fascists etc. Usually some nice collection exists in most countries, just with different dose according to local appetite.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  7. #87
    Kritias's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    They did won, but with a significant descrease in votes, as many disillusioned citizens presumably refused to participate in the elections. As I said previously, I understand and agree with your argument that the SYRIZA's popularity suffered remarkably from the fact that it governmed in a similarly inefficient and amateurish manner to that of its predecessors, but the effect of the kolotoumba cannot be underestimated either. His decision to hold the elections so quickly following his ''treasonous'' but unsurprising surrender to his European and international interlocutors was a brilliant tactical move. A large portion of the society had not yet digested his complete reversal, while the opposition, including most importantly the MPs who refused to recognize the concessions, lack the time to organize a productive campaign. This is why I suspect that the consequences of the kolotoumba are not totally reflected upon the results of the September 2015 elections.
    I don't agree. When SYRIZA announced the referendum - a clear sign that a u turn was about to happen - there was rational dissent. Amidst the cacophony of media decrying the referendum as a Grexit, the reasonable voices asked a simple thing: why would a government with the mandate to end the austerity measures need to go to a referendum in order to end austerity measures? The wording of the referendum was equally laughable; we were given a 'yes/no' choice to a deal we had not even seen, with the highly controversial media pleading that the deal was a desirable one and that the majority of the population was in fact going to vote yes [MEGA Channel moments of glory].

    The real outcome of the referendum and the loss of voters SYRIZA registered at the time were the ex-syriza MPs proceeding to form the LA.E under Lafazanis and Konstantopoulou, who also were attacked by SYRIZA in a back-stabbing way as the 'apostates' - the deserters. In fact, the right had put all its might to campaign against the government since the capital controls, sometimes excessively so; it was when the hashtags like 'mega_xeftiles' (media clowns for lack of a more suitable word) first appeared, presumably from SYRIZA circles as a backlash to the pressure inflicted on the government. It was when hundreds of people crying at the bank lines were shown all day long; people wearing heavy winter coats, when the banks closed down in June. Just a reminder: Greece is a country at the south of Europe. Climate very hot. Or when two lovely Russian babushkas guarding themselves on an ATM at night from 1996 where shown as Greek women trying to fend off the hordes of debt zombies of 2015.

    I don't think that the opposition lacked the opportunities for organizing an effective campaign. In fact the campaign they unleashed was so unrelenting a lot of people believed it was scare-mongering. During that period we had hourly statements from EU officials broadcasted minute by minute and constant attempts to paint the Armaggedon was just shy away from coming down on us. And we had members of the opposition shouting slogans like 'Jeroen, hold fast' on radio broadcasts. Fun fact, the collaborators had a similar slogan about Rommel, which only angered those of us who have read our history books.


    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Regarding the reluctance of the majority of Greeks to find and endorse a ''competent'' party, I think that the blame mainly lies with the society and not really with the political system. It's my impression from the 2015 negotiations and even the debate over the issue here in Total War Center, that many Greeks, including the ''charismatic'' Minister of Finances fail to understand how the economy, diplomacy and politics really function. SYRIZA itself triumphed (initially), because it heavily invested on the delusions of a large portion of the public, who genuinely believed that there are easy solutions to difficult problems, that a return to past and idealised prosperity is perfectly possible, without the need for major sacrifices. In my opinion, these surrealistic expectations pose a great danger and essentially guarantee that lucrative opportunities will always exist for ruthless populists, from Tsipras to Velopoulos and Varoufakis. Hopefully, the lessons of the 2015 debacle can gradually lead to political maturity and ideological consistency.
    Again, I disagree. Nea Demokratia is highly competent if the goal is to create wealth for the inner beneficiaries rather than the whole of society. It has shown so in the past, and the West has applauded Nea Demokratia on many occasions on its policies. Pasok is highly efficient if the goal is to bring unity to a polarized people as statements such as 'the past is boring and overrated' should inform you.

    I wouldn't call 61,31% of the people asking for a return to the drachma to start from 'year zero' as delusional or thinking that there were simple and easy solutions to the debt crisis. Varoufakis was suggesting at the time a system of double currency just for that reason. The KKE was stating rather accurately that the choice was between a dragged-out economic asphyxiation and euthanasia with the hope that an economy could be kick started within a decade. Nea Demokratia under Samaras were saying they would renegotiate with the creditors and they would achieve better terms at the time, actually. At some point we need to recognize the right's populism for what it was and what it still is.

    In terms of not understanding economics, politics and the art of diplomacy - what you say is your opinion, so I won't argue that. Blaming society is also your opinion, if maybe influenced a bit by the international media and their lopsided coverage of the time; with your permission to make a statement of my opinion on your opinion. Which, historically, has its own dynamic in the West where 'Dirty Greeks', 'Greasers', 'Onion people', 'Lazy' and so many other things have been slung against the Greeks. Just a century away you could walk around NY and see signs like 'No rats, No Greeks, All American' around. Prejudice and bigotry. Why, Mr. Jeroen himself said that the Grieks (dutch variation intentional) spent all their money on gyro, ouzo and hookers.

    In short, the same old western propaganda story: For Greeks to have accepted the Oriental bondage for so long, it must be true that since their decline they had given themselves over to the vices of ephemeral pleasure. Please.

    But to take as a sample the discussion on Total War Center forums, well... I have an issue with that. Firstly, TWC demographics are very limited. Gamer men who have the money for mid-to-high end tier electronics who are also interested in grand strategy games. I personally found TWC when I was sixteen. Hardly a political aficionado! Here you won't find your normal distribution sample. In fact, a quick look on the pit just now and you can see that extreme right wing ideologies such as 'the leftist conspiracy' and 'white replacement' are rampart in every thread. Same with the political academy. I think only in forums of games like Hearts of Iron can you find more nationalism, stubbornness, irredentism, pseudo-scientific statements, and crypto-racism. Goebbels would swoon with many people here.

    IN the meantime, Nea Demokratia reversed a law today under which foreign nationals outside the EU could acquire a national welfare serial number, and are as of today unable to go to any hospital if the need arises. To spell it out: if you are the tolerable kind of xenos, you can go to the hospital. And woe on you if you are not.

    In addition, Mr. Mitsotakis vowed his first legal action is to abolish university asylum. For those of you who don't know what that means, during the student uprising of 1973 against the Colonels junta, a tank broke into the national polytechnic university followed by a night of wild killing sprees and arrests by the army and police on protesting students who demanded 'Bread, Education, Freedom.' After its fall, the Republic made a law so that no one could enter the university with the intent to arrest a student without the vote of the university officials. The law was gradually limited with every Nea Demokratia government, first limiting the places it applied, then removing the 'freedom to circulate and discuss ideas' clause from its context, and then introducing cases when asylum doesn't apply at all ie during student strikes.

    This is just day 6 dawning. Still think it's going to be fine?


  8. #88
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    He was voted to abolish that asylum, that policy was one of the most publicized ones leading to the election, so it has been legitimized by the vote regardless what you, one person, thinks of it. Non-greek people indeed wouldn't know what that is, cause they don't have such a bizarre practice of allowing criminal acts in universities.
    Good riddance to those criminals - each year they would use the universities to retreat to after they had smashed public and private property in city centers - now they can retreat to a nice cell to reflect on what they are doing with their life.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  9. #89
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    If the university asylum is indeed exploited by criminals, then I agree with Kyriakos. Although I understand the value of honouring the popular fight against the military junta, you should not sacrifice the quality of tertiary education for the sake of pure symbolism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    I don't agree. When SYRIZA announced the referendum - a clear sign that a u turn was about to happen - there was rational dissent.
    I was talking about the period between the referendum results and the September elections. The sudden announcement of the elections did not allow the anti-austerity opposition, including the former MPs of SYRIZA, to effectively organise a party and orchestrate a convincing election campaign. They even lacked the time to advertise the name of their newly born formation to the general public. Thanks to Tsipras' brilliant manoeuvre, all the dissident MPs failed to get reelected, which gave SYRIZA the opportunity to maintain its percentage and continue to rule Greece for 4 more years, despite the fact that it had completely abandoned its utopian promises.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    I wouldn't call 61,31% of the people asking for a return to the drachma to start from 'year zero' as delusional or thinking that there were simple and easy solutions to the debt crisis. Varoufakis was suggesting at the time a system of double currency just for that reason. The KKE was stating rather accurately that the choice was between a dragged-out economic asphyxiation and euthanasia with the hope that an economy could be kick started within a decade. Nea Demokratia under Samaras were saying they would renegotiate with the creditors and they would achieve better terms at the time, actually. At some point we need to recognize the right's populism for what it was and what it still is.
    Did they realy wish a return to the national currency? I still remember the common narrative back then: Thanks to Greece's terrific diplomatic skills, superior morality and invaluable geopolitical value, either the "4th Reich" would unconditionally surrender or the rest of "progressive countries', like France and Italy, would accept Greek demands and eject big, bad Germany from the European Union. I don't necessarily object to the Communist Party's positions, or the view that Greece should bankrupt and return to the economically more valiable drachma, as both these ideas are ideologically coherent and do not rely on cheap populism. However, neither KKE nor drachma are even mildly popular.

    My issue is with the thousands who totally reject the political system, because "all politicians are thieves" "nobody has succeeding in simultaneously ending austerity, preventing bankruptcy and remaining in the EU". The aforementioned desires are often self-contradictory and essentially unfeasible, as even a superficial knowledge of the debt crisis would have revealed. And yet, SYRIZA and many other parties, New Democracy not excluded, actively cultivated these delusions, because they offered a great opportunity for easy opposition. Now that the dreams SYRIZA propagated have been proven utterly baseless, in a rather dramatic manner, Greeks should perhaps reconsider their priorities and expectations, instead of observing that there are no more available charlatans selling them fool's gold.

  10. #90

    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    The Fuhrerin of the Euronazi Empire has spoken: ''squeeze the Greeks for everything they have for the next decades'' (that'd be up until 2056 when austerity should end, unless there's a recession before).
    http://www.ekathimerini.com/242448/a...urplus-targets

  11. #91
    Kritias's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by [COLOR=#3E3427
    Abdülmecid I[/COLOR];15810805]If the university asylum is indeed exploited by criminals, then I agree with Kyriakos. Although I understand the value of honouring the popular fight against the military junta, you should not sacrifice the quality of tertiary education for the sake of pure symbolism.
    The asylum law doesn't supercede criminal statures, or common law. It states that no arrest can be done inside the teaching/research facilities of a university; not even the entire university campus is covered. Now, since 1982 there has been an organized effort to say that the asylum should be banned because terrorists, or common criminals occupy the universities. The law though says that arrests can be made without the faculty agreeing to the entrance of the police in the case of crimes against life or bodily harm. What's more, criminal actions inside the asylum remain criminal actions when the persons leave it - if the goal was to arrest the molotov throwing hoodlums, the police can do that as it is. This is not the goal, and this argument is just bull.

    Quote Originally Posted by [COLOR=#3E3427
    Abdülmecid I[/COLOR];15810805]I was talking about the period between the referendum results and the September elections. The sudden announcement of the elections did not allow the anti-austerity opposition, including the former MPs of SYRIZA, to effectively organise a party and orchestrate a convincing election campaign. They even lacked the time to advertise the name of their newly born formation to the general public. Thanks to Tsipras' brilliant manoeuvre, all the dissident MPs failed to get reelected, which gave SYRIZA the opportunity to maintain its percentage and continue to rule Greece for 4 more years, despite the fact that it had completely abandoned its utopian promises.
    I was also speaking of the period from June,2015 (capital controls) to September, 2015 (elections). The reason I include a few weeks prior to the referendum's result is, as I said earlier, due to the opposition's enormous campaign to topple the government since then. The former MPs of Syriza had been showing signs of splitting for some months now, with Konstantopoulou leading the charge against Tsipras; their seperation was only formalized after the referendum. If, as you say, the kolotoumba was the reason then the people would have followed Konstantopoulou and Lafazanis and LA.E. I won't argue whether it was briliant maneuvering or not, only that Tsipras' actions at this point sealed his reputation as a back-stabber. He came to power in Syriza after ousting Alavanos, the man who introduced Tsipras to politics. And he did so in a very ignoble way, too. I remember hearing a lot of people being very troubled by Tsipras in 2013 due to this, referring him as a ic oglani - a Hellenized slur meaning a very bad young man from the Turkish word for kid. Yeah, true story.

    Quote Originally Posted by [COLOR=#3E3427
    Abdülmecid I[/COLOR];15810805]Did they realy wish a return to the national currency? I still remember the common narrative back then: Thanks to Greece's terrific diplomatic skills, superior morality and invaluable geopolitical value, either the "4th Reich" would unconditionally surrender or the rest of "progressive countries', like France and Italy, would accept Greek demands and eject big, bad Germany from the European Union. I don't necessarily object to the Communist Party's positions, or the view that Greece should bankrupt and return to the economically more valiable drachma, as both these ideas are ideologically coherent and do not rely on cheap populism. However, neither KKE nor drachma are even mildly popular.
    Simply, yes. During that time, the opposition from Nea Demokratia based a dichotomy between the Greece of the Drachma or the European Greece. Grass roots mobilized by ND called 'We remain [in] Europe' and 'Quit now' were taking on to the streets against the government. The entire discussion was based on the fact that if the EU would not agree to restructure the debt in a way that stopped the humanitarian crisis in Greece, then there would be Grexit. And the people supported the Grexit too, by 61,31%. Varoufakis was planning, according to him, a parallel payment system. Funnily enough, the rhetoric of the '4th Reich' came from radio host Tragkas, a reknown Nea Demokratia supporter. Daily in his shows he was playing Lilee Marleen and other Occupation-enducing songs while calling Merkel Hitler's daughter, amongst other things. On the same side of the specturum, you had Adonis Georgiadis circling all media decrying the memoranda as a 'blessing' against the communist economy of Greece. To name but two of the Nea Demokratia people going around that period. Syriza on the other had presented foundings by leading economists asking for restructuring an 'a brave haircut' so that what remained could be paid off. Failing that, Tsipras himself and Varoufakis were saying that they'd 'pull the pin' and Grexit - there was no delusion of what was happening since the Syriza government was elected. If you want to say what Syriza rhetoric was utopian prior to the elections, I won't argue that. But everybody knew what the reality was a few weeks after Syriza became a government in 2015. So, I would say it's a bit unfair to say that Greeks daydreamed for easy solutions when the society was getting ready to face an unregulated bankruptcy.

    Quote Originally Posted by [COLOR=#3E3427
    Abdülmecid I[/COLOR];15810805]My issue is with the thousands who totally reject the political system, because "all politicians are thieves" "nobody has succeeding in simultaneously ending austerity, preventing bankruptcy and remaining in the EU". The aforementioned desires are often self-contradictory and essentially unfeasible, as even a superficial knowledge of the debt crisis would have revealed. And yet, SYRIZA and many other parties, New Democracy not excluded, actively cultivated these delusions, because they offered a great opportunity for easy opposition. Now that the dreams SYRIZA propagated have been proven utterly baseless, in a rather dramatic manner, Greeks should perhaps reconsider their priorities and expectations, instead of observing that there are no more available charlatans selling them fool's gold.

    Again, maybe you are a little biased from the discussion here. Keep in mind that people here are not indicative of the political discourse of Greece. Which is also mainly the reason for my being here typing these lines. 'All politicians are thieves', 'nobody can succeed' is nothing more than crypto-authoritarian cries, and shouldn't be seen as anything else. Keep in mind that their demands' unfeasibility, superficiality and contradictions are eased due to the belief of the unfaltering ability of the Leader to navigate them through all difficulties. Just recognize them as the proto-fascists they are, and move on until you find people actually talking politics.

    PART DEUX

    Okay, let’s get a couple of things straight. The EU is a supranational entity closely resembling the federal system of the US. And as there are very rich states and very poor states in the US, so in the EU will be very rich member states and very poor member states. The EU has made it its policy to integrate the economies of the 27 in such a way that the collective economy of the EU works. Anyone who doesn’t understand this doesn’t really understand what the EU is.

    The problem, of course, is that the EU is nothing like a federal nation. It has no national, cultural, political or symbolical homogeneity. What is left is an economic policy that could be called internal colonialism. The primal stages of the EU integration, the investment packages [ie the Delors Packages of 2000’s] serve to bring all member states on the same speed only on an infrastructural basis so that products can flow freely. And then colonialism begins: in the case of Greece, the EU forced the country to cut down its agricultural production and instead import these goods from other states, mainly the greatest agricultural production countries – France and the Netherlands. So for a country known for its olive oil the act of burning down the majority of its olive groves in mid-2000’s should have warned everyone what was in store for Greece.

    Seen from this aspect, the declaration from Shauble that ‘economics are not dictated by elections’ makes perfect sense. The EU has a single economic policy, and this policy should be obeyed no matter what. Therefore, the European argument that there was no alternative but austerity gains some validity. The problem of course, and the reason I call EU’s policies colonialist, is when you see the pattern of discrimination between West and South Europe. A simple glance on the hours worked per week in the 27 shows the cluster of Balkan member states on the top work hours and the cluster of Western Europeans at the bottom. This also shows the differences in the treatment of working classes between the countries based on a supranational policy. Add in the mix the bigotry and racial slurs we heard from Western Europe and voila!

    When Syriza run for elections in 2013 on the promise of ending the austerity, the people did not trust it. They elected Samaras and Nea Demokratia instead, who insisted there was no other way. When the destruction and devastation deepened in the following 2 years the people were fed up enough to flirt with the idea of Grexiting. So, in 2015 Tsipras was entrusted with ending the negotiations. And Syriza promised in their rallies and on the panels that there was another way out. The policies proposed, however, were similar to what Portugal was also implementing and there was little reasonable doubt that if the EU agreed on Portugal, they would not also agree in Greece.

    They didn’t agree. In the opening moves of 2015, the EU outright dictated what was going to happen and even told the Greek people off. This was when the hashtag ThisIsACoup went around the world. The banks closed on June, 2015. A referendum was called, and the Greek people voted by 61,31% to Grexit. But the PM announced the very same night of the referendum that ‘this wasn’t a mandate for clash with Europe, but a mandate to return to the negotiation table.’ An offer with further concessions was offered to the EU, and a reply was sent back: even more privatizations, more taxes, more pension cuts, more wage cuts etc. The message was clear: submit or leave.

    Tsipras fired Varoufakis and replaced him with Tsakalotos, and then signed a third memorandum – the most violent until then. Now, you seem to believe that the reason Tsipras held the elections so close after the kolotoumba caught everyone by surprise, and the people having no other alternative were confused and voted for Tsipras again. But if you had seen the outrage the ‘no’ turning into a ‘yes’ caused, literally overnight, should tip you off. Had the vote been influenced by the kolotoumba, and being so close to it that the rage was still palpable, the government would have been crushed entirely. Nea Demokratia was still very well off by then and the Right could enforce these demands without breaking a sweat, even enjoying it.

    By that time the Greek people were already willing since the previous elections to Grexit, and most of us heaved a collective sigh that we didn’t need to. But Syriza was punished accordingly – it is because they did not resign immediately that the Greek people voted on them again. For Syriza, there would be no heroics, no redemption. No passing of the hot potato to other hands. Tsipras could have been a hero if he had decided to resign immediately when he got the final deal. Instead he signed it, and then resigned. And the Greek people told him that he had to carry out what he signed.

    I have already covered most of the period leading up to the kolotoumba, the positions of the Nea Demokratia during the whole debacle, the wishes of the Greek people to Grexit. Now, the criticism.

    The KKE has hammered time and again a very interesting point. Maybe Tsipras was the vehicle to carry out more reforms, faster, harsher, stricter. His left government was in name only progressive, instead implementing a very harsh austerity program. If you follow Tsipras’ interviews on foreign outlets, he doesn’t expressively say that he was about to clash with Europe. To the contrary, he was reassuring that a clash with Europe was the last thing he had in mind.

    During the 2012 Papadimos government the entirety of political parties strutted around flying the anti-austerity banners. Pasok and Nea Demokratia were promising renegotiations, getting more memorandums and loan agreements in exchange for more austerity back. Syriza also posed as anti-memorandum. Even Golden Dawn were anti-austerity.

    So, why do I retain that Syriza wasn’t worse than Nea Democratia? From a workers’ point of view the austerity measures were the same, if pilling up on top of each other. Yet there were a lot of relieving measures that we can now kiss good-bye. One, the 2016 law enabling citizens and foreigners who had lost or didn’t have their insurance paid to get hospitalized free of cost. I remind you that during Nea Demokratia, you had to pay 5 euros entry fee to just get inside the building.

    Tsipras served a very dubious role, but not the one the people here have not actually said already [I keep asking for specifics, I just get name-calling from you guys]. Tsipras allowed the full force of the austerity measures to be implemented en masse, on the back of an OXI vote. The historical significance of the OXI itself that the government was pushing just before the referendum should have tipped everyone off that it would be the outcome. But Tsipras used that OXI, and the conspiracy theories the nationalists were fostering to push a Nea Demokratia domination to paint the Europeans as ‘colonialists’ and his concessions as a ‘coup’. He had no other way but to acquiesce to their demands because there was overwhelming powers stacked against him – the German occupation and treason narratives springing up from the Right through Tragkas and Chios and others filled the void deliberately left by Syriza. If you pay close attention, Tsipras and his cabinet never accused the foreign powers that be for their actions, they only said that there was a clash of interests. Tsipras himself was always talking of an ‘honorable settlement’.

    Tsipras can be blamed for so many things. Firstly, he continued the practice started from ND to have migrants and refugees piled up on NGO-run camps, Moria being one of them. Secondly, that he enforced an even greater austerity program that Nea Demokratia would have blood if they even tried. Thirdly, that he did not resign immediately once the European policies became apparent and decided to prolong useless talks that weakened the position the country was already in. Fourthly, the despicable handling of the wildfires in Mati were the incompetence of the state lead to a hundred people dead. Fifth, the descent to the same incompetent, self-serving mode of governing as their opponents.

    But everyone who has taken a stance on Tsipras in this thread hasn’t made a peep on anything about the above. They simply call them clowns, anarcho-communists and traitors. Only the last adjective shows what annoys them: the Prespes Deal. That, and the refugees coming to be piled up in concentration camps with Europe’s blessings that is somehow been called as ethnic replacement. So, one nationalism. Two, racism.

    And that’s how we ended up with a Nea Demokratia government that promised benefits for ‘Greeks only’.
    Last edited by Kritias; July 13, 2019 at 08:43 PM. Reason: Didn't have time to type everything at once :/


  12. #92
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    Tsipras can be blamed for so many things. Firstly, he continued the practice started from ND to have migrants and refugees piled up on NGO-run camps, Moria being one of them. Secondly, that he enforced an even greater austerity program that Nea Demokratia would have blood if they even tried. Thirdly, that he did not resign immediately once the European policies became apparent and decided to prolong useless talks that weakened the position the country was already in. Fourthly, the despicable handling of the wildfires in Mati were the incompetence of the state lead to a hundred people dead. Fifth, the descent to the same incompetent, self-serving mode of governing as their opponents.

    But everyone who has taken a stance on Tsipras in this thread hasn’t made a peep on anything about the above. They simply call them clowns, anarcho-communists and traitors. Only the last adjective shows what annoys them: the Prespes Deal. That, and the refugees coming to be piled up in concentration camps with Europe’s blessings that is somehow been called as ethnic replacement. So, one nationalism. Two, racism.

    And that’s how we ended up with a Nea Demokratia government that promised benefits for ‘Greeks only’.
    I don't think that people with any grasp of Greek politics have forgotten or forgiven Tsipras for any of the 5 you mention. People that have no clue maybe. But it is easier to call someone a traitor, for betraying the trust he was given, than mention all these things again and again.

    Now if indeed it is racism and nationalism and a "Greeks only" mentality that drove some voters. Which is likely, then it is but an echo of a greater issue with liberal democracy in general. Not a Greek issue. You see it in Europe, the US. But Greece can't really fix this. It's just not an important enough player for that. Competent politicians could at best alleviate its effects. In the EU, it's on the shoulders of the greater powers, particularly Germany, who under Merkel has proven to be woefully inadequate and shortsighted. If nothing happens, then Putin will have the last laugh and liberal democracy will perish. Frankly, even I find it increasingly difficult to defend. In light of what's been happening.

    All that said. I agree that ND is . And Greek voters (in general) are morons who don't know how to use, or worse sometimes outright abuse, the privilege they've been given.
    Last edited by Alastor; July 15, 2019 at 03:14 AM.

  13. #93

    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    At this point the person who was chief of the Police in the Mati disaster last year (where over 100 people died in the fire) is reinstated by the current administration. I would say that this is ridiculous, but there is nothing funny about it, it's simply tragic.

  14. #94
    Kritias's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I don't think that people with any grasp of Greek politics have forgotten or forgiven Tsipras for any of the 5 you mention. People that have no clue maybe. But it is easier to call someone a traitor, for betraying the trust he was given, than mention all these things again and again.

    Now if indeed it is racism and nationalism and a "Greeks only" mentality that drove some voters. Which is likely, then it is but an echo of a greater issue with liberal democracy in general. Not a Greek issue. You see it in Europe, the US. But Greece can't really fix this. It's just not an important enough player for that. Competent politicians could at best alleviate its effects. In the EU, it's on the shoulders of the greater powers, particularly Germany, who under Merkel has proven to be woefully inadequate and shortsighted. If nothing happens, then Putin will have the last laugh and liberal democracy will perish. Frankly, even I find it increasingly difficult to defend. In light of what's been happening.

    All that said. I agree that ND is . And Greek voters (in general) are morons who don't know how to use, or worse sometimes outright abuse, the privilege they've been given.
    Unfortunately, I think that the majority of the reason why Greeks voted in favour of Nea Demokratia had to do with the Prespes Deal, and the general fear of loss in national matters caused by Turkey's latest aggressive behavior. In a rather ironic twist of fate, we ourselves became the meme, spurred onward by the populists of the right wing.

    What was obvious, that Nea Demokratia also supported the deal, became crystal clear today when the Minister for Defence stated that the deal is a 'blessing' for the future. The tweet from former Minister of Exterior, who was threatened repeatedly, called a traitor, was sent death threats and suffered countless other aggressions by the 'patriots' is telling.

    I wonder how the vote might have been if the conservatives, nationalists and fascists of this country hadn't been whipped, cajoled and lied into voting for Nea Demokratia.

    Had it been any different, I would have had more faith that people really looked into the policies of Syriza and decided to vote elsewhere, but with a difference of no more than 8% of the vote... It was too close, and the issue with Prespes too recent. As was the whole thing with Cyprus, the Aegean and the constant threat of drilling from our neighbours. I believe the national issues, as they stood on July 7th convinced people to vote for a 'strong', 'patriotic' government.

    To what end, remains to be seen...

    PS: It hasn't been two weeks and the police are at their former tricks again, unloading at Airbnb protesters who claim the company has skyrocketed rents in Athens. On a darker tone, the riot police have allegedly tortured a homeless man in Exarcheia. Part of their promise to clean the square of the antifa and anarchists I guess...

    We'll see.


  15. #95
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    Unfortunately, I think that the majority of the reason why Greeks voted in favour of Nea Demokratia had to do with the Prespes Deal, and the general fear of loss in national matters caused by Turkey's latest aggressive behavior. In a rather ironic twist of fate, we ourselves became the meme, spurred onward by the populists of the right wing.
    Then the majority of those Greeks have no grasp of Greek politics. Arguably, that would explain a lot.

  16. #96

    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    On a darker tone, the riot police have allegedly tortured a homeless man in Exarcheia.
    I am the last person who would play the advocate of the cops (I hate them), but the particular video was fixed. In fact, at no point do you see the riot police torturing or doing anything to anyone, you just hear someone (from the voice he seems to be a junkie), screaming like an idiot and other voices. It wouldn't be the first time that the anarchists do that.

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