View Poll Results: For which party would you vote?

Voters
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  • New Democracy (Right-wing)

    1 8.33%
  • SYRIZA (Center-left)

    1 8.33%
  • KINAL (Center)

    0 0%
  • KKE (Communism)

    2 16.67%
  • Golden Dawn (Neo-Nazism)

    1 8.33%
  • Greek Solution (Far-right)

    2 16.67%
  • MeRa25 (Left-wing)

    4 33.33%
  • Union of Centrists (Center)

    0 0%
  • Other (Please, specify)

    1 8.33%
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Thread: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

  1. #21
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Made a lot of work on the steam platform from what I know from the internet
    Well that doesn't sound like you know much about him then. I would recommend you try watching the video I shared. It will give you a better idea.

  2. #22
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Varoufakis may look cute in front of the camera and have some expertise in economics, but his term in the Ministry of Finances showed that he's hoplessly clueless about concepts like politics, negotiations and conflicts of interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    @Abdul: claiming Georgiades is "far-right" isn't logical. Of course some do claim it, namely Syriza. If you wish to be on the same level, go ahead
    Voridis isn't far right either, and from the little i know of Plevris (not to be confused with his utter loon father, who indeed is far right) he isn't that "far".
    So, how do you comment on Georgiadis' links with Antisemitism, as described by the Anti-defamation League? Voridis, the axe-wielding founder of EPEN (a far-right group which idealised the military junta and invited Jean-Marie Le Pen to Greece), who also painted swastikas, doesn't sound very moderate either. Both Georgiadis and Voridis, as well as Plevris, were elected to the Parliament as the representatives of the far-right Popular Orthodox Rally, together with the "toon" Velopoulos (who, by the way, had also briefly joined New Democracy, before choosing a more solitary career).
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; June 20, 2019 at 12:10 PM. Reason: Vocabulary.

  3. #23
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Varoufakis may look cute in front of the camera and have some expertise in economics, but his term in the Ministry of Finances showed that he's hoplessly clueless about concepts like politics, negotiations and conflicts of interest.
    You mean he is not a politician? Well, i sure hope so. Seeing how much good all these career politicians that understand such concepts did, him not being one is a plus.

    More seriously I would argue the biggest hurdle of his tenure was that he didn't belong to the governing clique and didn't have the backs of his prime minister. Hardly his fault.

  4. #24
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    ^As long as we agree that those figures (apart from Velopoulos, who is insane anyway) wouldn't even be enough to the right be regarded as left in Turkey, there would be a point to carry this on.
    But since I suspect we won't, let's end it immediately and save time

    Btw, +1 for your decision to make voting public, again.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  5. #25
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Well that doesn't sound like you know much about him then. I would recommend you try watching the video I shared. It will give you a better idea.
    I also know him from his time as a minister Alastor, and from his speeches before he became minister.
    DIE: Diversity, Inclusion, Equality (Pun on SJWs, I am not far-right)
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  6. #26
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I also know him from his time as a minister Alastor, and from his speeches before he became minister.
    Well considering the amount of mud thrown at him first by the troika's lackeys (including ND) and then by Tsipras and his cronies in order to distract the public from their famous kolotoumba (as described by Abdul in the OP) it's not very easy to know him from his time as a minister.

  7. #27
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Well considering the amount of mud thrown at him first by the troika's lackeys (including ND) and then by Tsipras and his cronies in order to distract the public from their famous kolotoumba (as described by Abdul in the OP) it's not very easy to know him from his time as a minister.
    It actually is and I don't remember Tsipras throwing amounts of mud on Varoufakis. He may have made an off comment here or there that I don't remember, but nothing much.
    It is not hard to remember the guy that was saying there was no plan B and he didn't want Grexit, when he was preparing a plan B for Grexit that included hacking on his own computer systems to set up a parallel currency. Which is something Tsipras didn't significantly criticize him for, which he should have.

    Considering Tsipras more or less pardoned Varoufakis crimes, I find it hard to believe he got into a mudfight with him.
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  8. #28
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    It actually is and I don't remember Tsipras throwing amounts of mud on Varoufakis. He may have made an off comment here or there that I don't remember, but nothing much.
    It is not hard to remember the guy that was saying there was no plan B and he didn't want Grexit, when he was preparing a plan B for Grexit that included hacking on his own computer systems to set up a parallel currency. Which is something Tsipras didn't significantly criticize him for, which he should have.

    Considering Tsipras more or less pardoned Varoufakis crimes, I find it hard to believe he got into a mudfight with him.
    Obviously the mudslinging would be done primarily by his cronies. Tsipras has an image as a leader to maintain and lots of stooges to use for his dirty work. This whole hacking business is an example of sth blown out of proportion. As for his plan B, from what I have heard at least, Tsipras, the rebel pre-kolotoumba Tsipras obviously, had requested one in the first place. Would be funny if then he went on the record criticizing him for having one.

  9. #29
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Varoufakis is a known and respected professor, and worked in many world-famous universities. I like him. I will be happy to see his party in parliament (and it seems it almost certainly will be in parliament).
    I am not going to vote for him, though. That said, he is clearly far more serious than Tsipras, cause Tsipras did the most ignoble thing and then stayed around out of pure love for having a pm seat and role.
    I hope Syriza gets obliterated in the election and dies in two elections from now.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  10. #30
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    I have a few observations to make concerning the factions, the MPS, and other issues raised by this thread but I will do so discussing an over-arching theme: what can we expect of the national elections on July 7th? By all accounts the party of Nea Demokratia is going to win by a “landslide”, regardless the widespread abstention rates. Just for reference, during the tripartite elections last month there was a 42% rate while back in 2015 abstention reached 44,1% - a percentage called by Kathimerini as ‘the greatest rate of abstention following the democratic re-establishment in 1974’.


    What can we expect by Nea Demokratia? I was prattling on in another thread regarding the seeming ‘protestantization’ of Greece, noting a significant shift in the assorted ethics involved with work, savings, relations to the banking system, the entrepreneurs and job creators. According to the less vague declarations of Kyriakos Mitsotakis, the leader of ND, we can expect wide reforms in a) education, b) healthcare, c) ‘investments’ and d) a restructure of work legislation.


    Starting with education, Mr. Mitsotakis has made no secret of his desire to install privately funded universities. The problem, of course, is that public, tuition-free admission to universities has been a way for worldly advancement in Greece for generations. Fun fact, it is least vehemently defended by those who benefit the most – the people who cannot afford to study abroad, or pay high tuition fees. According to ND narrative the quality of public education is very limited and only private initiative will set it right. Of course, opening up the education sector to the private investors will create an ad hoc situation where Greek universities will become gradually worthless in terms of decree versatility, thus informally segregating the students between second-tier ‘public’ attendees and first-tier ‘private schooled’ attendees. Naturally, this issue bodes a considerable difficulty to what was left of people’s hopes of social mobility in Greece.


    The same is expected in healthcare. A lot of different schemes have been suggested during the last years, yet the government of Nea Demokratia and the ministry under Adonis Georgiades were pioneers in demanding an ‘admittance fee’ to even get in a public hospital. There have been stories in the media of underage children treated in the public hospital and currying a debt to the IRS from age 7. While this might sound normal-ish for foreigners, the Greek NHS has been one of the fairest, however flawed, public sectors in the country in the sense that it allowed the entirety of both citizenry and, since 2016, foreigners to get care despite of insurance. Nea Demokratia party has repeatedly stated an intention to demolish this precise aspect, framing the argument around the bad service, corrupt doctors, long hours of wait and other real flaws in the public system to privatize and allow private investors to profiteer from it.


    In terms of investments and the changes in work legislation, we can expect getting a lot of protective legislation going away. If you remember there had been a huge discussion back in 2014 regarding working on Sundays for all occupations, subverting the 5-day work scheme. The same sentiment was repeated very recently by the chief of Nea Demokratia who basically told us point blank that a lot of the aspects of work as we knew them are obsolete anachronisms and we should welcome the new ‘work revolution’ as he called it.


    From the above, and from a regular citizen’s point of view there’s little to gain and a lot to lose from the impending ND supremacy. Partly responsible for the collapse of the Greek economy back in 2009, there has been no serious examination of what exactly Nea Demikratia’s role has been in the signing of the memoranda, the austerity measures that hacked away at the middle classes, and the pauperization of the Greek people. Instead, Nea Demokratia is the only party from the pre-crisis period still retaining the largest part of their electoral base while PASOK got dismantled and sold for scraps to SYRIZA, POTAMI and KINAL. There has already been some mention of the people who comprise the corpus of the party, such as the vice-president Georgiades, Michalis Voridis and the passer-by Velopoulos.


    Add to that the fact that the party’s ideology ranges from radical liberalism to social liberalism, depending on how the political climate twirls, and is often supplanted by nationalism and far-right ideologies. Despite the dubious political stance, the party has attempted, and from the looks of it based on the comments here rather successfully, to somehow retain their respectability. The fact that Nea Demokratia is hardly expected to win by such margins as to form a government by themselves should also worry us as to whom they will choose to form a coalition with. Velopoulos’ party, a former comrade and a non-Nazi solution seems rational, but what happens on the next elections or if Velopoulos fails to give the needed seats by himself?


    To wrap this quick analysis with SYRIZA, to assume that this party was ever or is still any sort of radical left party is simply erroneous and speaks volumes on how low the bar by which to understand what is radical has been set. A close examination of PASOK during the late 8os and especially the populist rhetoric of Andreas Papandreou shows SYRIZA for what it really is – a socialist democratic party, not unlike so many in EU [like the SPD par example, whose fate SYRIZA seems ready to follow]. SYRIZA, spelling out the cues of a PASOK-like party in its pre-election period [something that caused innumerable comparisons between PM Tsipras and Andreas Papandreou, and rightly so] managed to rise from a modest 6% in 2012 to governing party in 2015. The party was elected on the premise of ushering in a new elite and doing away with the old corruptocrats who led Greece into bankruptcy, a promise it has failed to deliver. A close examination of those who speak of a ‘jounta’ or a ‘regime’ of the Left shows beyond any reasonable doubt that the sally against the government was led by the old estate and a collection of other, unsavory types.


    In fact, SYRIZA’s greatest sin wasn’t the kolotumba [as the OP suggests], since if you recall the government resigned days after the fact and went forward to national elections – and won those elections too. Despite 61,31% of Greeks denying the austerity measures, I do not think anyone seriously thought that Grexit would be any better for the country – I also believed that people were, even if they deny it, relieved that the government did this kolotoumba even at the last second. No, the greatest sin of SYRIZA was that a) it promised to demolish the old elite, which it failed to do, b) didn’t assist any other social group into consolidating any kind of privilege that could extend its power base and c) singed the Prespes Deal which is a very sore point for many nationalists, a considerable demographic in the country. In addition, members of SYRIZA resorted to the old school tactics of self-helping and corruption – in a sentence, they got politically assimilated. So, SYRIZA ended up being disliked by most and loved by none.


    So, what can we expect? Nothing good from my point of view.
    Last edited by Kritias; June 26, 2019 at 07:56 AM.


  11. #31
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    Starting with education, Mr. Mitsotakis has made no secret of his desire to install privately funded universities. The problem, of course, is that public, tuition-free admission to universities has been a way for worldly advancement in Greece for generations. Fun fact, it is least vehemently defended by those who benefit the most – the people who cannot afford to study abroad, or pay high tuition fees. According to ND narrative the quality of public education is very limited and only private initiative will set it right. Of course, opening up the education sector to the private investors will create an ad hoc situation where Greek universities will become gradually worthless in terms of decree versatility, thus informally segregating the students between second-tier ‘public’ attendees and first-tier ‘private schooled’ attendees. Naturally, this issue bodes a considerable difficulty to what was left of people’s hopes of social mobility in Greece.
    Personally, I find the polarisation regarding the "private universities" question rather weird. I think most of their proponents (and perhaps even some of their opponents) have really misunderstood the concept of such institutions, by imagining the flowering of hundreds of money-generating Harvards. Firstly, it's impossible for a university in Greece to even approach the immense budget of Harvard. Secondly, Harvard, although it is not directly administered by the state, is not a profit-seeking organisation either. The vast majority, not to say all, of the private universities are nothing but insignificant colleges, which completely lack in prestige and academic credentials. As a result, they mainly attract the offspring of middle and upper classes, who can both affford their tertiary studies and are incapable of entering the state universities through the rather demanding exams. From a quick Wikipedia research, I noticed that such private institutions already exist, with the only difference being that their subject concern only practical teaching, without expanding their interests to more "advanced" scientific fields.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    The same is expected in healthcare. A lot of different schemes have been suggested during the last years, yet the government of Nea Demokratia and the ministry under Adonis Georgiades were pioneers in demanding an ‘admittance fee’ to even get in a public hospital. There have been stories in the media of underage children treated in the public hospital and currying a debt to the IRS from age 7. While this might sound normal-ish for foreigners, the Greek NHS has been one of the fairest, however flawed, public sectors in the country in the sense that it allowed the entirety of both citizenry and, since 2016, foreigners to get care despite of insurance. Nea Demokratia party has repeatedly stated an intention to demolish this precise aspect, framing the argument around the bad service, corrupt doctors, long hours of wait and other real flaws in the public system to privatize and allow private investors to profiteer from it.
    I can't really comment on the healthcare system, but appointing Georgiadis as a Minister of Health seems very controversial. Apparently he had served in the same position in 2013-4, which I consider it unacceptable, given his history of advertising and selling void jackets magically curing every disease. Pseudoscience is already a dangerous threat to public health (check, for example, the hysteria about the imaginary links of vaccination with autism), so such a nomination is an indirect "official" verification of Adonis' charlatanism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    In fact, SYRIZA’s greatest sin wasn’t the kolotumba [as the OP suggests], since if you recall the government resigned days after the fact and went forward to national elections – and won those elections too. Despite 61,31% of Greeks denying the austerity measures, I do not think anyone seriously thought that Grexit would be any better for the country – I also believed that people were, even if they deny it, relieved that the government did this kolotoumba even at the last second. No, the greatest sin of SYRIZA was that a) it promised to demolish the old elite, which it failed to do, b) didn’t assist any other social group into consolidating any kind of privilege that could extend its power base and c) singed the Prespes Deal which is a very sore point for many nationalists, a considerable demographic in the country. In addition, members of SYRIZA resorted to the old school tactics of self-helping and corruption – in a sentence, they got politically assimilated. So, SYRIZA ended up being disliked by most and loved by none.
    I agree that all these policies played a role at the partial collapse of SYRIZA, but I still insist on not underestimating the effect of the kolotoumba. It contradicted all their previous promises and certainly alienated many of their voters, as can be observed in their remarkable loss of voters (approximately 300.000) during the September elections of 2015. After all, I'd argue that these elections and the kolotoumba were so sudden and unexpected, that many of their supporters and the emerging opposition did not have the necessary time to properly digest the news, which probaly limited the extend of the ruling party's retreat. Finally, the Prespes Treaty has certainly contributed as well, but, despite Greece suffering indeed from particularly high levels of chauvinism, its unpopularity presumably influenced less a center-left party like SYRIZA than a right-wing one (like their partner-in-crime, the Independent "we're being chemtrailed!" Greeks), whose agenda relies heavily on tribalism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    ^As long as we agree that those figures (apart from Velopoulos, who is insane anyway) wouldn't even be enough to the right be regarded as left in Turkey, there would be a point to carry this on.
    But since I suspect we won't, let's end it immediately and save time

    Btw, +1 for your decision to make voting public, again.
    Thanks for the appreciation for the poll. That being said, refusing to address my arguments by deflecting to a completely irrelevant case is not very productive. I explained why all these members of the New Democracy party can and should be considered as far-right, so feel free to reply to these points.

  12. #32

    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    @alhoon, may I suggest EPAM, if you haven't considered it already? It is a patriotic leftist party. Recently they joined up with AKKEL (the Greek AKKEL, not the Cypriot AKEL). I would suggest looking them up, they seem to be a good bunch.

  13. #33
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    @alhoon, may I suggest EPAM, if you haven't considered it already? It is a patriotic leftist party. Recently they joined up with AKKEL (the Greek AKKEL, not the Cypriot AKEL). I would suggest looking them up, they seem to be a good bunch.
    EPAM?
    EPAM is not leftwing from what I have seen. They are... a bit strange. For starters their top-guy was a communist.
    I am also not a Euroskeptic, I am against going back to Drachma and as hell I am not a leftwing.

    Still, I have voted for Papathemelis in the past and if he runs alone I would vote for him. But I am very hesitant to vote for a mix of communists, reformed communists and center-rights even if they present a patriotic front.


    However, we're so low that I have to seriously consider this party as I am really disappointed with my choices as the Pirate Party won't participate in these elections again. In the Municipality elections, they didn't have people in my area to go for it either.

    But... EPAM? EPAM?
    Oh well... if we're that low, then why not. They are going along with the Agricultural κτηνοτροφικο Party, AKKEL that I was considering to vote for.


    However, I am not yet sold. Their main page is a horror story of crap and histrionics.
    In short, they seem to be the kind of people that would easily sacrifice their ideals to get a nice position and engage in low level populism.
    Last edited by alhoon; June 29, 2019 at 06:22 AM.
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  14. #34

    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    I don't know. We've seen a lot in recent years, true, but Kazakis does not strike me as the person who would be interested in a position. He seems like a decent sort. Still, it is understandable (and prudent) to be cautious.

  15. #35

    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Had too look up some info about the parties because the landscape has changed quite a bit.

    ND: pro-EU, cuckservatives, heavily responsibile for the financial disaster of Greece. Traitors.
    SYRIZA. Worse traitors than the the previous one. Promised the moon without having the courage to quit the EU, nor the Euro, ended up selling the country, which is by now a German puppet state. Then they started doing gay rights because that's what the Left does after lasting economic damage. Greece lost the best of its youth to mass emigration, replaced by allowing in illegals from the Middle East. In other times, Tsipras would have faced execution. If you scroll back through my thousands of posts, years ago I predicted he'd be as bad as Michael Parapinakes. Meagre satisfaction.
    KINAL: PASOK 3.0. Recycled center left, heavily responsible alongside ND for the disastrous financial management of the country.
    KKE: commies. Would probably sell what's left of the historic heritage of Greece once Germany squeezes them too.
    GD: Nazis. Good luck with those as well. Would probably start mass jailings.
    GS: couldn't find much info other than being Christian (Orthodox) Conservatives, pro-Russia, pro-China. Compared to the rest, that doesn't sound too bad.
    MeRa25: Varoufakis. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. A guy who learned nothing and is still waiting for the EU to do his policies.
    Union of Centrists: pro-EU fanatics, because you never have enough of those.

    Terrific options.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; June 29, 2019 at 11:40 AM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Had too look up some info about the parties because the landscape has changed quite a bit.

    ND: pro-EU, cuckservatives, heavily responsibile for the financial disaster of Greece. Traitors.
    SYRIZA. Worse traitors than the the previous one. Promised the moon without having the courage to quit the EU, nor the Euro, ended up selling the country, which is by now a German puppet state. Then they started doing gay rights because that's what the Left does after lasting economic damage. Greece lost the best of its youth to mass emigration, replaced by allowing in illegals from the Middle East. In other times, Tsipras would have faced execution. If you scroll back through my thousands of posts, years ago I predicted he'd be as bad as Michael Parapinakes. Meagre satisfaction.
    KINAL: PASOK 3.0. Recycled center left, heavily responsible alongside ND for the disastrous financial management of the country.
    KKE: commies. Would probably sell what's left of the historic heritage of Greece once Germany squeezes them too.
    GD: Nazis. Good luck with those as well. Would probably start mass jailings.
    GS: couldn't find much info other than being Christian (Orthodox) Conservatives, pro-Russia, pro-China. Compared to the rest, that doesn't sound too bad.
    MeRa25: Varoufakis. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. A guy who learned nothing and is still waiting for the EU to do his policies.
    Union of Centrists: pro-EU fanatics, because you never have enough of those.

    Terrific options.
    GS: couldn't find much info other than being Christian (Orthodox) Conservatives, pro-Russia, pro-China. Compared to the rest, that doesn't sound too bad.
    You could get letters of Jesus Christ as an added bonus. Their leader actually used to sell them. He is also friends with one of Thessaloniki's chielf mafia bosses (extortion). He was also convicted of slander. All these, among many other things.

  17. #37

    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Wonderful.

  18. #38
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Well, letters from Jesus are unfortunately not just confined to Greek political parties.
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  19. #39
    Alastor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Well, letters from Jesus are unfortunately not just confined to Greek political parties.
    And that's good? It would appear these elections would yet again showcase the deadend that the Greek political system has hit. I read a survey saying that up to 40% intend to vote for ND. I mean ND? Seriously people? If your only choice is SYRIZA(PASOK) or ND then why don't you just welcome back the Ottomans(the monarchy for the easily offended)? At least then the Greek people can go back to being just victims, instead of being forced to share the blame for the complete failure of their democracy.
    Last edited by Alastor; June 29, 2019 at 09:46 PM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: 2019 Greek Legislative Elections

    I think most Greeks have simply given up. They were betrayed by their own politicians and squeezed by what are allegedly fellow Europeans. There's simply no hope.

    The irony here is that the Greek experience is what fires up most Italians. If the EU tries something like that here, then we migh as well have a civil war.

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