Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 81 to 100 of 148

Thread: The U.S. will never be a white country again

  1. #81

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    That makes no sense. First i don't think you understand while the US it is multicultural the various cultures all share similarities in the first place. They aren't entirely seperate cultures. Like Chicano-American culture and Southern culture. Both have differences but are similar to one another since both are just sub-groups of American culture.

    Your example with the Muslim President is bad. Nevermind he'd never be able to change the Constitution, but you assume because he is a Muslim that he will enact Islamic laws and Islamic culture in general. Thats a massive assumption and kind of ignores the fact Muslom or not he likley was born and grew up in the US. He'd be exposed to American culture in the first place. He could even take aspects from his religion's culture and simply add it in while still being compatible with what is American culture.

    You use the same example with Hindus. It all assumes that those Hindus and Muslims want to enforce their religious beleifs and culture over the native culture. Yet in the entire history of US immigration thats never happened.

    We have Muslim Congressmen and women. Not one of them has advocated for Islamic law or forcing Islamic beliefs on the rest of the population. We have millions of Muslims and other religious minorities. They seem to be perfectly fine with the US not promoting their religion or enacting laws to suit thier religious beliefs. No riots or escalating violence.

    Yes American law and its Constitution are based on some Anglo-Saxon tradition and WASP culture defined the US at the time. Yet this isnt 1789 anymore and American culture has changed dramatically since then.

    If American culture still played by WASP rules we wouldnt have had Obama as President or Kennedy since he was Catholic. Women wouldn't be as prominent in politics or positions of power either.

    WASP culture is long dead. Got replaced. Way too much influence from non-WASP people for it to still be considered WASP culture.

    I don't know why you focus so much on religion. America isn't Lebanon or Syria. No where near the same religious tension and violence.
    Obama is a half black dude playing by WASP rules and he has nothing in common with Kenya when it comes to culture. Zero. If it wasn't for the color of his skin, he wouldn't even be remembered. Kennedy was killed and that alone makes it a bad idea to bring it up.

    US institutions aren't influenced by Islam, Hinduism or any other major religion, just like they aren't influenced by any other philisophical theory coming from anywhere outside Europe. It's laughable to claim they are multicultural when there's basically only one sphere of influence they rely on. Which is why they are under attack by your side anyway. If they were truly representative of other cultures, then the social justice crowd maybe would shut up, though I have my doubts on it.

    But hey, at least you didn't strawman my argument.

    Conon did, so... rule for the thread: if you aren't understanding what I'm talking about, you can ask for a clarification. If you attempt to make me defend your strawman, you won't get further answers. I won't even read your future posts in this thread.

  2. #82
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    12,763

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    This has created a situation where there is an overflow of vastly different people that are tearing the fabric of society apart. Not because of their skin color. It is simply higher than the rate of absorbtion.
    Also of course outside maybe the UK and France most European countries don't have much history with taking in non Europeans.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #83
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    12,763

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Conon did, so... rule for the thread: if you aren't understanding what I'm talking about, you can ask for a clarification. If you attempt to make me defend your strawman, you won't get further answers. I won't even read your future posts in this thread.
    Sorry to offend you but you produced a scary story that might apply to the abysmal government structure the French constructed in Lebanon, but makes no sense in the US. There is no way you can enact laws based on Quran just as Judge Ray Moore cannot have his Ten Commandments in front of his court with a minority and certainly nothing less than a super majority across the country is needed to alter the Constitution. Thus the Courts with strike down any such move as a violation of church and state.. I suppose given you ignored post #76 I should expect you might not full have a handle on the US system of governance.

    Kennedy was killed and that alone makes it a bad idea to bring it up.
    Why

    Obama is a half black dude playing by WASP rules and he has nothing in common with Kenya when it comes to culture. Zero. If it wasn't for the color of his skin, he wouldn't even be remembered
    But by the 'WASP(m)' rules you seem to were the only foundational basis of the US (and seemingly feel should have stayed that way)he would as Vanoi pointed could never be elected no matter how he played the rules. The American cultural and Constitution have always been fluid. Also I think I would prefer he was culturally American and American rules are not WASP rules. The US has managed to create an American culture that is multicultural largely because it has slowly but surly got to a point where ethnicity and religion and nation of origin or skin color are excluded from access to political office. That in turn means that for example if you go to a competitive dance class in lily white Utah almost ever dance is done to a rap s or hip hop song or maybe jazz and few rock songs. All derivative of black American culture. So sure in a balkanized society like Lebanon that might not happen but is normal and healthy in America.

    Also you have to admit the US Constitution did explicitly reject its WASP cultural inheritance. It looked not to god or a King to rule by divine right but only to the people. It also explicitly accepted immigrants who could be naturalized. That if you think about it accepted that the nation could change over time.
    Last edited by conon394; June 20, 2019 at 12:11 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #84
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Palace of Neuwied
    Posts
    1,913

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Also of course outside maybe the UK and France most European countries don't have much history with taking in non Europeans.
    At least West Germany has a long history of turkish (and south-/ easteuropean) immigrants as this graph shows:



    And still we have the lowest jobless quote of all times and a stable growing economy.

    And if you look at the nationalities mostly european, so immigration will not make germany to a islamic country.

    Claims of becoming Eurabia is fearmongering.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; June 20, 2019 at 12:14 PM.
    Christ was crucified, Socrates was poisoned, Phidias was accused of theft - it is almost an honor to be abused by contemporaries.

    Carmen Sylva (1843 - 1916), actually Princess Elisabeth Pauline Ottilie Luise zu Wied VA (Royal Order of Victoria and Albert), German writer and lyricist, by marriage Queen Elizabeth of Romania

    Proud Non-Citizen / Unschuldsengel / My Mods

  5. #85
    Civis
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
    Posts
    124

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    AMERICANS SEE 'BETTER FOOD' AS BIGGEST BENEFIT IMMIGRATION BRINGS TO THE U.S., YOUGOV POLL FINDS

    https://www.newsweek.com/immigration...v-poll-1444304

    Is anyone surprised that millions of immigrants can be supplemented by one easy purchase on Amazon? https://www.amazon.com/international...ional+cookbook

  6. #86
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    12,763

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    I forgot Germany. But historically in Germany a those were people coming on the guest worker programs were they not? An order process and one where their spot in society was kind of arranged.. I think three is a difference in taking waves people dislocated by economic desperation and or wars. In that the systems that worked for the arranged economic migration are perhaps not up to dealing with disorganized wave immigration. I stand correction. I might have Germany pegged wrong back when I was econometrics in the 80s and early 90s I read all kinds of papers in the US arguing we should use a German model for guest works to deal with illegal immigration, and many economists were full of praise etc.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #87
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    15,027

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Obama is a half black dude playing by WASP rules and he has nothing in common with Kenya when it comes to culture. Zero. If it wasn't for the color of his skin, he wouldn't even be remembered. Kennedy was killed and that alone makes it a bad idea to bring it up.
    A black man can't fit into WASP culture nor a Catholic. Why do you think its called that in the first? WASP culture emphasizes being a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

    Its why immigrants in the 1920s faced backlash from the natives. Immigrants like Italians definitely did not fit into WASP culture. Its why people hated them and claimed we were being invaded.

    WASP culture is long dead for a reason.

    US institutions aren't influenced by Islam, Hinduism or any other major religion, just like they aren't influenced by any other philisophical theory coming from anywhere outside Europe. It's laughable to claim they are multicultural when there's basically only one sphere of influence they rely on. Which is why they are under attack by your side anyway. If they were truly representative of other cultures, then the social justice crowd maybe would shut up, though I have my doubts on it.
    Yet you said yourself that Europe is not one culture but many cultures. You claim the US can't be multicultural and yet if they are being influenced by Europe by definition that means multiple cultures were influencing America. That doesn't even touch on the non-European influence that has changed American culture as well.

  8. #88
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Palace of Neuwied
    Posts
    1,913

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I forgot Germany. But historically in Germany a those were people coming on the guest worker programs were they not? An order process and one where their spot in society was kind of arranged.. I think three is a difference in taking waves people dislocated by economic desperation and or wars. In that the systems that worked for the arranged economic migration are perhaps not up to dealing with disorganized wave immigration. I stand correction. I might have Germany pegged wrong back when I was econometrics in the 80s and early 90s I read all kinds of papers in the US arguing we should use a German model for guest works to deal with illegal immigration, and many economists were full of praise etc.
    The first generation of turkish (and south european) guest workers came organised by industry and government. Thats right, but after retirement big parts migrated back, but in the 80s/90s there was a second wave of after drawing family members and religious/ethnic turkish minorities as asylumseekers, which came to Germany. The new wave of south and east european immigrants came with the free movement law of the EU in the 2000s, but they have mostly already a job offer, before they immigrate.

    The unregulated migrant wave of 2015 was an emergency case, not the norm.

    This year a new immigration law is going to parliament with more legal ways for qualified non european immigrants to immigrate.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; June 20, 2019 at 12:49 PM.
    Christ was crucified, Socrates was poisoned, Phidias was accused of theft - it is almost an honor to be abused by contemporaries.

    Carmen Sylva (1843 - 1916), actually Princess Elisabeth Pauline Ottilie Luise zu Wied VA (Royal Order of Victoria and Albert), German writer and lyricist, by marriage Queen Elizabeth of Romania

    Proud Non-Citizen / Unschuldsengel / My Mods

  9. #89

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    A black man can't fit into WASP culture nor a Catholic. Why do you think its called that in the first? WASP culture emphasizes being a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

    Its why immigrants in the 1920s faced backlash from the natives.
    Not only they can, but there have been enough by now to create the ''Oreo'' (Black outside, white inside) stereotype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post

    Yet you said yourself that Europe is not one culture but many cultures. You claim the US can't be multicultural and yet if they are being influenced by Europe by definition that means multiple cultures were influencing America. That doesn't even touch on the non-European influence that has changed American culture as well.
    All European cultures to the very least share some roots, notably Christian influence being a major factor, just like Greco-Roman one. Some have it more, some less, some have the Protestant variant, some the Catholic one. Sometimes two groups have a ton in common like the already mentioned Slovaks and Czechs and they still split.
    The US institutional culture is fundamentally Western. What does it take from Confucian China? Hinduist India? The Islamic world? Saying that the US culture isn't Western but multicultural is equivalent to claiming that if it had been founded by Chinese colonials instead of English ones, it'd still be what it is today.

    Do you want to claim that?

  10. #90
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    15,027

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Not only they can, but there have been enough by now to create the ''Oreo'' (Black outside, white inside) stereotype.
    Not WASP culture. American culture as it is now is definetly not WASP culture. The minute you stop emphasizing the WASP part it stopped being WASP culture.



    All European cultures to the very least share some roots, notably Christian influence being a major factor, just like Greco-Roman one. Some have it more, some less, some have the Protestant variant, some the Catholic one. Sometimes two groups have a ton in common like the already mentioned Slovaks and Czechs and they still split.
    The US institutional culture is fundamentally Western. What does it take from Confucian China? Hinduist India? The Islamic world? Saying that the US culture isn't Western but multicultural is equivalent to claiming that if it had been founded by Chinese colonials instead of English ones, it'd still be what it is today.

    Do you want to claim that?
    No doubt the institution is Western but that doesn't mean t hasn't been influenced by non-Western cultures. American culture has non-Western aspects. American law and institution utself has vastly changed since what was conceived in 1789.

  11. #91

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    We are going in circles. I'm not claiming the US (or any other country for that matter) is a closed pot with a static culture. Being influenced by other cultures doesn't really translate to not having your own distinct one, nor it means that one of the influences is far more significant than all the others, even combined. That's actually true for most countries.

    The US would be quite different if it had been colonized even by Spanish people rather than the English. Or by the Italians, or the Germans, or even the Portuguese. And all of those retain traits of European culture spanning from Greek philosophers to the Englithenment and yet they are all quite different.

    Thus until there's a dramatic institutional shift up to the US Constitution, everyone is playing by the rules that reflect the culture of those who set them. It also goes beyond what's immediately recognizable as the paper of the Constitution and governmental elements. Want proof? There are countries in the world that essentially made a copy-paste of the US Constitution. If society's culture made no difference, then copy pasting the US constitution would have likely replicated the same society you have in the US. It did not.

    Why? Different environment, culture, social interactions, all elements that are hard to quantify. You can't tell me that the dominant culture does not exist or does not have any influence.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; June 20, 2019 at 03:17 PM.

  12. #92
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    6,040

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Multi-radicalism and multi-culturalism are not the same. Besides the usual racism stuff there aren’t particularly big problems with multi racial societies.

    With multi-culturalism, it’s a different ballgame and in my opinion one you’re better of not playing.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    I wont lie, this is the last place I expected Lucifer to reveal his true form. But I can't say I'm not pleased.

  13. #93

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Inevitably this thread has devolved into the laughable marxist debate between nationalism, the worker's revolt, and ethnicity. It's almost as if with each consecutive generation, Europeans devolve into somehow further degenerate and irrational positions related to economic, race, nationalism and religion. I just hope that then you all inevitably decide to genocide one another again over whatever idiocy is currently in style, the USA for once sits it out and we just let you play out the idiocy without any loss of life to Americans.

  14. #94
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    15,027

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    We are going in circles. I'm not claiming the US (or any other country for that matter) is a closed pot with a static culture. Being influenced by other cultures doesn't really translate to not having your own distinct one, nor it means that one of the influences is far more significant than all the others, even combined. That's actually true for most countries.
    Of course i agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Thus until there's a dramatic institutional shift up to the US Constitution, everyone is playing by the rules that reflect the culture of those who set them. It also goes beyond what's immediately recognizable as the paper of the Constitution and governmental elements. Want proof? There are countries in the world that essentially made a copy-paste of the US Constitution. If society's culture made no difference, then copy pasting the US constitution would have likely replicated the same society you have in the US. It did not.
    Rules that have changed. Sure my government is based off the ideas of the Founders who got their ideas from Enlightenment thinkers, Anglo-Saxon law and tradition, ect. You couldn't say though that the current US Constitution and the various court rulings that have shaped it are just still the same "rules" or culture from the people who created it. The culture of the Founding Fathers is much much different than today and their views wouldn't reflect current US culture or society. Sure they'll be similarities when it comes to rights, liberty, individualism ect. as though are still very much ingrained in American culture. They definitely wouldn't share the same views on things like slavery or the rights of women.

    No one is denying society's culture doesn't make difference. Those countries that try to emulate Western style government and Constitutions often had no real experience with those kind of ideas previously. It doesn't surprise me that they don't replicate the same societies. It would take decades for something new like Western style thought to really be accepted and replicated in a country that never had any previous experience with it.


    I do now understand why you said the US wasn't truly multicultural. In your view to be truly multicultural it can't just be different cultures co-existing but also represented in the nation's laws, constitution, and government.

    To me thats rather a subjective definition of multiculturalism considering its basic definition is different cultures co-existing with one another.

    But i actually agree with you. Disregarding the basic definition i can see why you would define multiculturalism that way. I will say though its not going to change the fact that in the basic definition you can have a society with different cultures co-existing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Why? Different environment, culture, social interactions, all elements that are hard to quantify. You can't tell me that the dominant culture does not exist or does not have any influence.
    Yes but whats the dominant culture? Sure American culture is an easy answer. Yet American culture itself is subjective. Its why i mentioned Southern culture and Chicano-American culture. American culture is a superculture comprised of nothing but the various regional or even local cultures with differences but all sharing similar qualities that would define them as American culture. Its different where you go.

  15. #95
    Civis
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
    Posts
    124

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Take Germany for instance. With a nationalism that arose in the wake of class revolution from Napoleon, and finally subjected to egalitarianism after WWI, no social order is powerful enough now to deny diversity in Germany and the equality of all people within Germany. That's just it. The principalities of the German Reich under the leadership of the Prussians can not suddenly appear again, but Germany and the greater regions of other German peoples must now be diverse and can never deny the equality of all people. The institutions, the social orders, the powers, etcetera, are incapable of admitting the faults of an egalitarian government, and that goes for all the West...

    ...until Trump threw the Overton Window open, probably smashed it and left it broken. More people, before Trump honestly, are and have been seeking a way away from crowdist egalitarianism.

  16. #96

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Of course i agree.

    Rules that have changed. Sure my government is based off the ideas of the Founders who got their ideas from Enlightenment thinkers, Anglo-Saxon law and tradition, ect. You couldn't say though that the current US Constitution and the various court rulings that have shaped it are just still the same "rules" or culture from the people who created it. The culture of the Founding Fathers is much much different than today and their views wouldn't reflect current US culture or society. Sure they'll be similarities when it comes to rights, liberty, individualism ect. as though are still very much ingrained in American culture. They definitely wouldn't share the same views on things like slavery or the rights of women.
    You might want to add gay marriage to the list. But here's the thing: did those cultural changes come from outside influence or inside development? It's the latter in every case. We are still within the path that starts with Greek philosophy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    No one is denying society's culture doesn't make difference. Those countries that try to emulate Western style government and Constitutions often had no real experience with those kind of ideas previously. It doesn't surprise me that they don't replicate the same societies. It would take decades for something new like Western style thought to really be accepted and replicated in a country that never had any previous experience with it.

    I do now understand why you said the US wasn't truly multicultural. In your view to be truly multicultural it can't just be different cultures co-existing but also represented in the nation's laws, constitution, and government.
    But it's not ''multiple cultures cohexisting in the US government''. The culture is one. You can call it ''Western'' or whatever you prefer. Is there any Japanese cultural influence in US government practices? Arab Islamic? Indian? And even when there's an outside influence, because again, it's not a closed pot, there's clearly a domination of one specific group.

    What you have are single individuals coming from different cultures working in the different US governmental institutions, which still remain in the hands of the dominant cultural and ethnic group, at least for the moment.
    Let's go with a completely hypothetical case and say US Congress had a sufficient number of Sunni Muslims to change certain aspects of the Constitution and they did do that. Then you could say ''our institutions are multicultural''.

    And I don't think society would survive that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    To me thats rather a subjective definition of multiculturalism considering its basic definition is different cultures co-existing with one another.
    Who set the rules of peaceful coexistance? All groups or one group? Because what I'm trying to say boils down to exactly that.
    Did all the groups sit down and found a mutual agreement on the common rules, or was it one group that was in power, set the rules and in general said ''if you want to come here, these are the rules''?

    Which again is the point the social justice crowd is making: the rules were made by one group, the other groups are not properly represented, society has changed since then, new rules must made to accomodate everyone's needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post

    Yes but whats the dominant culture? Sure American culture is an easy answer. Yet American culture itself is subjective. Its why i mentioned Southern culture and Chicano-American culture. American culture is a superculture comprised of nothing but the various regional or even local cultures with differences but all sharing similar qualities that would define them as American culture. Its different where you go.
    Those are both sub-cultures. The impact they have on sections of society is also rather different in terms of size. Though ironically if Southerners start feeling they don't have much in common anymore with the rest of the US, because for instance their racial and religious preferences are too distant from what becomes mainstream American, you might get another attempt of secession.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Inevitably this thread has devolved into the laughable marxist debate between nationalism, the worker's revolt, and ethnicity. It's almost as if with each consecutive generation, Europeans devolve into somehow further degenerate and irrational positions related to economic, race, nationalism and religion. I just hope that then you all inevitably decide to genocide one another again over whatever idiocy is currently in style, the USA for once sits it out and we just let you play out the idiocy without any loss of life to Americans.
    The US right now are far more polarized than Europeans are. France isn't going to invade the Visegrad Group is they keep refusing to take in refugees.
    If SJWs take over the US government and start acting like they do in universities, media and tech, then the US is ed.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; June 21, 2019 at 01:56 AM.

  17. #97
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    15,027

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    You might want to add gay marriage to the list. But here's the thing: did those cultural changes come from outside influence or inside development? It's the latter in every case. We are still within the path that starts with Greek philosophy.
    Both honestly but more inside development itself than outside influence. But thats always been my point anyways. That the orginal culture has changed to the point where it only shares a few similarities with the past.



    But it's not ''multiple cultures cohexisting in the US government''. The culture is one. You can call it ''Western'' or whatever you prefer. Is there any Japanese cultural influence in US government practices? Arab Islamic? Indian? And even when there's an outside influence, because again, it's not a closed pot, there's clearly a domination of one specific group.
    I actually just said that above. The US government is based around Western culture.

    What you have are single individuals coming from different cultures working in the different US governmental institutions, which still remain in the hands of the dominant cultural and ethnic group, at least for the moment.
    Dominate culture yes. Ethnicity no.

    Let's go with a completely hypothetical case and say US Congress had a sufficient number of Sunni Muslims to change certain aspects of the Constitution and they did do that. Then you could say ''our institutions are multicultural''.
    Still not exactly possible but i see your point. I think society would have problems too but thats because any kind if changes to enact religious law would involve repealibg the most popular Amendment which is pretty much suicidal to do.

    American government though is pretty much designed to stop that.



    Who set the rules of peaceful coexistance? All groups or one group? Because what I'm trying to say boils down to exactly that.
    And i am trying to say they may have made the rules but the rules hane changes. You can't keep saying we play by their rules when the rules now are very different than what they were then. Its like saying the UK is still basically Norman in nature since the it was William and the Normans who created what would be the UK.

    Did all the groups sit down and found a mutual agreement on the common rules, or was it one group that was in power, set the rules and in general said ''if you want to come here, these are the rules''?
    Former. Like i said the current rules we have now are not the rules of 1789.

    Those are both sub-cultures. The impact they have on sections of society is also rather different in terms of size. Though ironically if Southerners start feeling they don't have much in common anymore with the rest of the US, because for instance their racial and religious preferences are too distant from what becomes mainstream American, you might get another attempt of secession.
    Thats my point. Those sub-cultures all have different impacts. It would be rather hard to define which one is the dominate one. If you trued to have one of those sub-cultures dominate the others it could lead to social strife.
    Last edited by Vanoi; June 21, 2019 at 09:09 AM.

  18. #98

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Both honestly but more inside development itself than outside influence. But thats always been my point anyways. That the orginal culture has changed to the point where it only shares a few similarities with the past.

    I actually just said that above. The US government is based around Western culture.
    When it comes to gays or slaves you might as well say it's a 180 degrees reversal. However, what's the base argument in favour of tolerating gays and freeing slaves? The basic concept of evaluating human beings as individuals. That's distinctly ''Western''. It's simply an extension of Western rights to individuals who didn't enjoy them fully until now.

    And I think we are in agreement here so there's no particular reason to expand it further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Dominate culture yes. Ethnicity no.
    But the cultural domination stems previous ethnic domination. We agreed as well that if colonials had been Spanish rather than English, the US would be different now. What has happened through the times is that the original WASP stock has diluted, to the point we simply talk about ''whites'' because it has come to include a variety of other European immigrants. Indeed the P for protestant is significantly less relevant now if we consider that the Supreme Court has more Catholics than others.
    Still, those European immigrants that came, for instance, the Italians, they dropped some of their cultural traits (namely language to begin with) so that they could mold into the dominant group.

    This process, which you might as well call ''integration'' allowed the preservation of social cohesion. The WASP made ethnic concessions in exchange of cultural concessions from the immigrants. It's a whole different thing to allow people to ''join in'' rather than to come in droves sufficiently high to reshape the country radically. In the second case you get an equivalent of seeing what exactly would have happened if the colonials were Spanish. More on this below anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Still not exactly possible but i see your point. I think society would have problems too but thats because any kind if changes to enact religious law would involve repealibg the most popular Amendment which is pretty much suicidal to do.

    American government though is pretty much designed to stop that.


    And i am trying to say they may have made the rules but the rules hane changes. You can't keep saying we play by their rules when the rules now are very different than what they were then. Its like saying the UK is still basically Norman in nature since the it was William and the Normans who created what would be the UK.


    Former. Like i said the current rules we have now are not the rules of 1789.
    I get the point of ''it's unlikely to happen any time soon'' as well as ''there's gradual change over time''. The latter is normal. Again, no culture or institution is static.

    It's a whole other thing to say ''every culture in the US must have equal representation in every single aspect of government and life''.
    That's a ''Tower of Babel'' multiculturalism where everyone does what they want; no common language to begin with, to respect ''diversity'', basically no necessary common values, institutions that shift their philosophical backbone from one group to another and so on.

    In conclusion, there's such thing as ''too diverse''. After a certain thresold you simply get social fragmentation. The diversity advocates instead simply think that things are going to be fine so long that we can provide adequate social representation to every single group and micromanage social interactions so that noone gets offended. I think it's insane.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Thats my point. Those sub-cultures all have different impacts. It would be rather hard to define which one is the dominate one. If you trued to have one of those sub-cultures dominate the others it could lead to social strife.
    Sub-cultures exist in pretty much any system that's large enough to allow geography to differentiate how groups live. That's not a problem as long as the cultural differences don't start overlapping over key lines, eg the already mentioned of Catholic Irish leaving the UK in the previous century. I wouldn't see it necessarilty in terms of ''who dominates whom'', though it can be a factor, but whether the differences are conciliable or not. Religion is notably one of those divides that tends to lead to secession, especially if the religion in question is Abrahamic.

    Which leads to the original point of the thread. Most Hispanics are Catholic, however the religious divide is significantly less important within Christendom right now than decades ago. (As seen by the already mentioned fact of the heavily Catholic Supreme Court). So to the very least, you can sort of write that one out. Next, the other highly conflictual line which is ethnicity. Here's the key would simply be to give time enough for Hispanics to join in like Italians did. Among Hispanics you already have the ''Hispanic White'' type, so there's reason to believe it could disappear over time.

    But that's also where part of the problems start. Italians had to give up their language to become Americans. This also happened over decades and wasn't immediate. It also happened because during the intra-war period the US restricted significantly immigration levels. So if you give people time, they eventually find ways to cohexist. Anglo-Saxon ethnicity was diluted, in exchange Italians dropped their language to become American.

    If the US keeps the current immigration levels, then Hispanics aren't going to drop their language quickly. Why would they, if they prevalently live among themselves and speak Spanish? Then you have trouble, because the ethnic divide starts overlapping with the linguistic divide. Which leads to another problem. Hispanics might have to abandon a number of cultural customs to fit in American society. Clearly not food, but you can't also say that there's a single Latin-American society that's as institutionally solid as the US or Canada, aka the ones deriving from Anglo-Saxon tradition. The risk being, instead of Hispanics becoming American, you get the US becoming like Latin-America. Desiderable? Not so much.

    And that's nothing compared to what Europe risks.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; June 21, 2019 at 01:14 PM.

  19. #99
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
    Civitate

    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, USA
    Posts
    15,027

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    This is becoming an interesting discussion. I'll give you a proper reply when i get off work.

  20. #100

    Default Re: The U.S. will never be a white country again

    No problem, take your time.

Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •