Effects of Colonialism on Africa

[Basil II the B.S]

White people are only afraid of being a minority because they assume current minorities are going to treat white people as bad as white people treated them.

You mean... giving them democracy, human rights, working rights and economic opportunities that they could only dream of in their countries of origins? Because except for rare cases like Japan or South Korea, the beacons of treatments of individuals in the world are all white majority countries.

There's also the other side of the argument. If we treat non-whites so badly, why on earth are they flocking in millions to our countries instead of staying at home? Are non-white immigrants utterly retarded according to White Liberals? Because according to your RETARDED argument, the motto of immigrants is ''let's go to Europe to be oppressed''. Really dude?

Why are you arguing for the racial discrimination of white people who generously welcomed newcomers from all over the world? Please, tell us more about the collective punishment of white people that your side has in mind, so that we can prepare for it.

I'd also like to remind you that in the end, we know that white liberals and their precious armies of slaves all live in large urban conglomerates. In the case you decide to exact your vengeange on white people, it might end up in ''Russia collision''.

Posts moved from the discussion about the tariffs on Mexican goods. ~Abdülmecid I

[Vanoi]

You mean... giving them democracy, human rights, working rights and economic opportunities that they could only dream of in their countries of origins?

White Man's Burden right? We gave those African slaves a better life. We gave those Native Americans a better life by forcing them onto reservations.

You seriously believe in that don't you? Its no wonder you scream about white genocide all the time. Why you constantly complain of white who don't hire minorities and minorities themselves. starting to really make sense.

[Basil II the B.S]

Liberia is there to prove me right and prove you wrong.

Further evidence? Zimbabwe. More? Look at that cluster that's South Africa.

If African Americans want live without white people, there are plenty of places to go full Wakanda. Same goes with White liberals anyway. If they want to live in vibrant and diverse societies, I recommend the already mentioned South Africa, but also Nigeria etc. They can get a taste of the beautiful local culture without the oppression of the evil whites that your side hates so much.

[Vanoi]

Liberia is there to prove me right and prove you wrong.

Further evidence? Zimbabwe. More? Look at that cluster that's South Africa.

Sure lets just ignore the rampant colonialism and imperialism that plagued Africa for decades and the effects it had later on. Always wearing blinders to see what you want to see. Its sad.

If African Americans want live without white people, there are plenty of places to go full Wakanda. Same goes with White liberals anyway. If they want to live in vibrant and diverse societies, I recommend the already mentioned South Africa, but also Nigeria etc. They can get a taste of the beautiful local culture without the oppression of the evil whites that your side hates so much.

They wanted to live in a society that accepted them not one without white people. Generations of people have grown up here and have no real ties to Africa so why should they have to move back?

You just don't want to admit that your White Man's Burden is . You preach the same ideology and ideas white nationalists from you own bias against minorities, your theory of white genocide and white people becoming a minority. But you'll get upset if i say that your alt-right? Its hilarious at this point with you.

[Basil II the B.S]

Sure lets just ignore the rampant colonialism and imperialism that plagued Africa for decades and the effects it had later on. Always wearing blinders to see what you want to see. Its sad.

Which has nothing do with places like Liberia. That was American educated slave descendants proving that they don't need the white man to build a perfectly functional democracy with human rights, rule of law and all that. It ended with genocide.

They wanted to live in a society that accepted them not one without white people. Generations of people have grown up here and have no real ties to Africa so why should they have to move back?
You just don't want to admit that your White Man's Burden is . You preach the same ideology and ideas white nationalists from you own bias against minorities, your theory of white genocide and white people becoming a minority. But you'll get upset if i say that your alt-right? Its hilarious at this point with you.

You copy paste the same arguments of critical race theorists whose declared goal is to destroy Western ''Capitalism'' because ''inherently patriarchal and white supremacist'' and replace it with another failed attempt of their nonsense who already killed tens of millions.

We owe nothing to anyone. Guilt isn't collective nor inherent. Anything less is racism.

People from Africa are treated better in Europe and North America than in any African country. Not a single one of them guarantees them food, health and economic security combined with political, social and human rights. This is the same for everyone else anyway. What exactly does your side want more? Oh right, that we, the evil whites, disappear because inherently and collectively racist. Then the world would be a better place.

[Toho]

White Man's Burden right? We gave those African slaves a better life. We gave those Native Americans a better life by forcing them onto reservations.
You seriously believe in that don't you? Its no wonder you scream about white genocide all the time. Why you constantly complain of white who don't hire minorities and minorities themselves. starting to really make sense.

Its kind of like Sports teams in cities where the citizens of the city claim THEY won the championship when really it was their team that did all the hardwork to actually win the championships.

It is kind of like Trump who accuses of others of doing exactly what he is doing because he cannot imagine other people operating differently than he does.
Hell it is so prevalent they made a whole sub-reddit about every contradiction the man spews and then immediately does.

[Vanoi]

Which has nothing do with places like Liberia. That was American educated slave descendants proving that they don't need the white man to build a perfectly functional democracy with human rights, rule of law and all that. It ended with genocide.

Except it did. You know nothing about Liberia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia

Pressure from the United Kingdom, which controlled Sierra Leone to the west, and France, with its interests in the north and east, led to a loss of Liberia's claims to extensive territories. Both Sierra Leone and the Ivory Coast annexed territories.^[23] Liberia struggled to attract investment to develop infrastructure and a larger, industrial economy.

On April 12, 1980, a military coup led by Master Sergeant Samuel Doe of the Krahn ethnic group overthrew and killed President William R. Tolbert, Jr. Doe and the other plotters later executed a majority of Tolbert's cabinet and other Americo-Liberian government officials and True Whig Party members.^[33] The coup leaders formed the People's Redemption Council (PRC) to govern the country.^[33] A strategic Cold War ally of the West, Doe received significant financial backing from the United States while critics condemned the PRC for corruption and political repression.^[33]
After Liberia adopted a new constitution in 1985, Doe was elected president in subsequent elections that were internationally condemned as fraudulent.^[33] On November 12, 1985, a failed counter-coup was launched by Thomas Quiwonkpa, whose soldiers briefly occupied the national radio station.^[34] Government repression intensified in response, as Doe's troops retaliated by executing members of the Gio and Mano ethnic groups in Nimba County.^[34]
The National Patriotic Front of Liberia (NPFL), a rebel group led by Charles Taylor, launched an insurrection in December 1989 against Doe's government with the backing of neighboring countries such as Burkina Faso and Ivory Coast. This triggered the First Liberian Civil War.^[35] By September 1990, Doe's forces controlled only a small area just outside the capital, and Doe was captured and executed in that month by rebel forces.^[36]
The rebels soon split into various factions fighting one another. The Economic Community Monitoring Group under the Economic Community of West African States organized a military task force to intervene in the crisis.^{[36][not in citation given]} From 1989 to 1996, more than 200,000 Liberians died and a million others were displaced into refugee camps in neighboring countries.^[10] A peace deal between warring parties was reached in 1995, leading to Taylor's election as president in 1997.^[36]
Under Taylor's leadership, Liberia became internationally known as a pariah state due to its use of blood diamonds and illegal timber exports to fund the Revolutionary United Front in the Sierra Leone Civil War.^[37] The Second Liberian Civil War began in 1999 when Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy, a rebel group based in the northwest of the country, launched an armed insurrection against Taylor.^[38]

America helped the instability in Liberia all for the sake of the Cold War. America and its support of Doe helped bring about the First Liberian Civil War.

Meddling by European powers and America in Africa have created bad situations. Your lack of knowledge of Liberia is obvious and it looks like i destroyed that argument.

You copy paste the same arguments of critical race theorists whose declared goal is to destroy Western ''Capitalism'' because ''inherently patriarchal and white supremacist'' and replace it with another failed attempt of their nonsense who already killed tens of millions.

Like who? Who have i copied and pasted that believed this? Quote me please. Meanwhile you preach almost identical arguments used by white nationalists. Its real sad from you.

We owe nothing to anyone. Guilt isn't collective nor inherent. Anything less is racism.

Its not guilt but recognizing the things we have done and the fact they have long lasting effects. Enslaving people then denying them basic rights as it was in America for decades has long lasting effect whenever you want to recognize then or not. Same in Africa.

People from Africa are treated better in Europe and North America than in any African country.

I highly doubt that actually. Not all of Africa is bad, or do you not realize that? Considering people like you live in Europe they might just be better off in Africa.

Not a single one of them guarantees them food, health and economic security combined with political, social and human rights.

Funny my own country doesn't guarantee me that. Maybe in a perfect world. Many of the states that provide these rights and needs you criticize constantly anyways because they're liberal. So i guess liberals aint that bad? Or are you just contradicting yourself like usual?

This is the same for everyone else anyway. What exactly does your side want more? Oh right, that we, the evil whites, disappear because inherently and collectively racist. Then the world would be a better place.

Being able to live together isn't hard. You are the one who'd more than willing to take the rights of others all in the name of preserving white culture and the white race. I'm not the danger. You are. Same nonsense spouted here by white nationalists.

[Basil II the B.S]

Your argument:
-white people inherently and collectively guilty of everything. If Africa can't get their together, bad white people. Somehow East Asia did it, despite colonialism, but let's ignore that;
-black people good;
-any different opinion slandered as white nationalism, because if you call it that way, then you can claim moral victory instead of factual one;
-somehow you can't name a single African country where life is better than the US, despite claiming so;

Typical Marxist critical race theory fantasies. Zero facts, all slander. Anyone who disagrees is demonized. No room for debate. All you do is demonize white people, shame them into guilt for things they didn't personally do, so that they have to swallow a future that they do not want. A future of genocide that the ideologues behind your argument want.

What a pile of garbage. Let's stick to the topic, shall we?

[Leonardo]

Which has nothing do with places like Liberia.

It actually has to do with Liberia and most people sometimes forget that Liberia was the first colony in Africa that declared independence in 1847.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberi...y_colonization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberia#Government

That was American educated slave descendants proving that they don't need the white man to build a perfectly functional democracy with human rights, rule of law and all that. It ended with genocide.

Source?

[Basil II the B.S]

Are we going to discuss whether the mass athrocities happened in Liberia constitute genocide according to someone's definition? If so, you can change the sentence to ''it ended in a slaughter''.

[Vanoi]

Your argument:
-white people inherently and collectively guilty of everything. If Africa can't get their together, bad white people. Somehow East Asia did it, despite colonialism, but let's ignore that.

East Asia? Really? Never heard of the Filipino War of Independence? French Indochina ring a bell? The Malayan Emergency? Have you even heard took a history class of any kind?

-any different opinion slandered as white nationalism, because if you call it that way, then you can claim moral victory instead of factual one.

You called colonialism and imperialism a good thing because they needed white people to help them. You believe in the absurd theory of white genocide. You complain about white people becoming a minority. And you don['t like immigrants are just different people in general. You again are preaching the main talking points of white nationalists.

-somehow you can't name a single African country where life is better than the US, despite claiming so;

Thats not what you said though. You said they would be better off in the US or Europe than Africa. You are the one who made a claim and has to prove it. Not me. Moving the goalposts and wealsking out of your claims is normal though right?

Typical Marxist critical race theory fantasies. Zero facts, all slander. Anyone who disagrees is demonized. No room for debate. All you do is demonize white people, shame them into guilt for things they didn't personally do so that they have to swallow a future that they do not want. A future of genocide that the ideologues behind your argument want.

What a pile of garbage. Let's stick to the topic, shall we? Trump delivered a thoroughly deserved kick in the face to that human garbage pile of treacherous genocidal vermins that's the Democratic party.

I knew it would be long before you mentioned Marxism and race theory. Very common talking points among white nationalists.

I see you aren't talking about Liberia anymore. I guess you just can't admit you were wrong? Its all right. not all of us can be as ignorant of history as you.

Trump delivered a kick? Where's that wall again Basil?

[Basil II the B.S]

Lmao ''postcolonial theory'' is not history dude. It's just Marxist trash that's produced in universities to poison the minds of the youth and turn them into activists to destabilize the nation. And it's not even the topic of the thread. Want to discuss that? Make one. I'll demolish your slander against white people without a problem. It's an absolute evil that deserve merciless treatment before your side goes onto another tide of cleansing.

[Vanoi]

Lmao ''colonial studies'' is not history dude. It's just Marxist trash that's produced in universities to poison the minds of the youth and turn them into activists to destabilize the nation.

No wonder you were so bad at the history of Liberia. Studying colonialism and imperialism is history. They were major movements since the 15th century onward. Colonialism is why i have my country. Studying it and their effects decades on isn't trash its important history.

Not surprised you don't study it though. Hard facts get in the way of your arguments a lot.

And it's not even the topic of the thread. Want to discuss that? Make one. I'll demolish your slander against white people without a problem. It's an absolute evil that deserve merciless treatment before your side goes onto another tide of cleansing.

Lol are you not advocating that people who share my views should be punished or worse? Advocating violence against those who don't share your views? I swear you keep ticking off all the boxes on what is a white nationalist. No surprise here.

[Basil II the B.S]

You spent multiple posts advocating collective punishment of white people for colonialism, but I'm bad. Rofl. All I want is that my side is prepared for when people with your ideas come for them.

[Toho]

You spent multiple posts advocating collective punishment of white people for colonialism, but I'm bad. Rofl. All I want is that my side is prepared for when people with your ideas come for them.

He never said any of those things.
You just do the same thing that Cathy Newman does to Jordan Peterson by changing everything he says "So what you are saying is" so that you could essentially debate yourself because you really have no response to his arguments.

If you don't want to hear or engage with other opinions why are you here? Just go on facebook and spew your crap there.

[Vanoi]

You spent multiple posts advocating collective punishment of white people for colonialism, but I'm bad. Rofl. All I want is that my side is prepared for when people with your ideas come for them.

Quote it please. Second time you claimed i said something but present no proof. Maybe you can prove it this time right?

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Italian colonial "presents" to their colonies:

Libya:

In 1923, Mussolini embarked upon a campaign to consolidate control over the Italian territory of Libya and Italian forces began occupying large areas of Libya to allow for rapid settlement by Italian colonists. They were met with resistance by the Senussi who were led by Omar Mukhtar. Civilians suspected of collaboration with the Senussi were executed. Refugees from the fighting were subject to bombing and strafing by Italian aircraft. In 1930, in northern Cyrenaica, 20,000 Bedouins were relocated and their land was given to Italian settlers. The Bedouins were forced to march across the desert into concentration camps. Starvation and other poor conditions in the camps were rampant and the internees were used for forced labour, ultimately leading to the death of nearly 4,000 internees by the time they were closed in September 1933.^[1] Over 80,000 Cyrenaicans died during the Pacification in all.^[2][3]

Aethiopia:

During the Second Italo-Ethiopian War, Italian violations of the laws of war were reported and documented.[4] These included the use of chemical weapons such as mustard gas, the use of concentration camps in counter-insurgency, and attacks on Red Cross facilities. According to the Ethiopian government, 382,800 civilian deaths were directly attributable to the Italian invasion. 17,800 women and children killed by bombing, 30,000 people were killed in the massacre of February 1937, 35,000 people died in concentration camps, and 300,000 people died of privations due to the destruction of their villages and farms. The Ethiopian government also claimed that the Italians destroyed 2,000 churches and 525,000 houses, while confiscating or slaughtering 6 million cattle, 7 million sheep and goats, and 1.7 million horses, mules, and camels, leading to the latter deaths.[5]

During the 1936–1941 Italian occupation, atrocities also occurred; in the February 1937 Yekatit 12 massacres as many as 30,000 Ethiopians may have been killed and many more imprisoned as a reprisal for the attempted assassination of Viceroy Rodolfo Graziani. A 2017 study estimated that 19,200 were killed - a fifth of the population of Addis Ababa. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church was especially singled out. Thousands of Ethiopians also died in concentration camps such as Danane and Nocra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italia...ation_of_Libya

German colonial "presents" in Namibia:

Herero and Namaqua genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero...maqua_genocide

But yeah, the white man's rule was beneficial to the "savages".

[conon394]

Are non-white immigrants utterly retarded according to White Liberals? Because according to your RETARDED argument, the motto of immigrants is ''let's go to Europe to be oppressed''. Really dude?

Well this has taken an Africa turn, but say the US and central america. The US has spent the better part of 150 years f-over those countries to point of being unlivable unless you are in oligarchical elite or a maybe made gang member in the drug trade. So better to be at worst marginalized in the US if you think you can make it and maybe your kids will end up like the kids of the Irish and Polish or Chinese (formality marginalized) and just be Americans.

People from Africa are treated better in Europe and North America than in any African country. Not a single one of them guarantees them food, health and economic security combined with political, social and human rights. This is the same for everyone else anyway. What exactly does your side want more? Oh right, that we, the evil whites, disappear because inherently and collectively racist. Then the world would be a better place.

You do realize that it is the human and natural wealth of Africa that was abstracted from at well gun point creating an endowment of wealth for the west - right - that allowed the situation you describe. Second Africa's current problems can in many cases be hung on the mess that European colonialism and how it unwound. I don't deny people have agency since the end of colonialism that is true. But consider the inheritance Africa got a random boarders, economies designed to feed the west as by in large just basic resource producers, lack of education (How many universities did the Congo have under Belgium and how many students were sent off university in Europe - about zero - but at least the Belgians made sure a lot of African residents of the free state would never have to be scolded for not using the 10 and 2 position when driving.), intentionally increased ethnic rivalry, a legacy of often long and bitter wars for independence... what exactly would you expect from Africa but many failed states and ones that simply don't make sense and run poorly. So again maybe you face racism in the US but maybe you believe the the statue of liberty and different chance.

But don't forget that chance like Europe's is built on a lot of boots on other peoples necks. Opium wars much?

[hellheaven1987]

I thought the history of Liberia is a classical example how African Americans view their African "cousins"...

[Common Soldier]

Well this has taken an Africa turn, but say the US and central america. The US has spent the better part of 150 years f-over those countries to point of being unlivable unless you are in oligarchical elite or a maybe made gang member in the drug trade. So better to be at worst marginalized in the US if you think you can make it and maybe your kids will end up like the kids of the Irish and Polish or Chinese (formality marginalized) and just be Americans.

Yet the rest of Latin America, where the US had little involvement, is not in much better shape than Central America, despite the great mineral resources. The US had little involvement in the War of the Triple Alliance, which had a devastating impact on Paraguay's population. While the US did not make matters better, it can be questioned that it really made matters that much worse than they would have been it hadn't been involved at all.

You do realize that it is the human and natural wealth of Africa that was abstracted from at well gun point creating an endowment of wealth for the west - right - that allowed the situation you describe. Second Africa's current problems can in many cases be hung on the mess that European colonialism and how it unwound.

Again, that is a questionable assumption. For most of Africa, Europe didn't become involved until the late 19th century, and by the 1960's, direct colonial rule was ended. The period since independence has been almost as long as the entire period of colonialism.

Let's examine the problems that bother Sub Saharan African:

1. Illiteracy - that was an issue long before the Europeans set foot on Sub Saharan Africa. Africa lagged in literacy long before colonialism, and despite a few isolated pockets, over all African literacy was far less than Europe, East and South Asia. There were many African languages that lacked any form of writing until the colonial period. For example, the Great Zimbabwe lacks evidence of native writing - there are no inscriptions on the stones that can be found. If you were to compare a contemporary medieval cathedral or mosque, you would find numerous examples of writing. While the Europeans might not have done much to reduce illiteracy, they did not create the problem in the first place.

2. Much of Sub Sahara Africans lived in large areas that were not covered by any kind of established "nation-state". That is why the modern nations of Africa largely follow the entities established by the colonial Europeans. Those countries that had strong existing nation states before the Europeans, like Ethiopia, managed to retained them despite the Europeans.

This lack of nation-states in Africa is reflected in Sub Sahara Africa's linguistic diversity. Overtime, nation states tend to reduce linguistic diversity - much of the languages of modern Europe derive from Latin of the Roman empire, and it was after the Roman Empire fell that Spanish, French, Italian split into separate languages. Had Scotland not been part of Britain/UK, its local variety of English "Scots" might have developed in a recognizable separate language from English. The different languages of in the area of France were eventually covered by a single national language based on the local dialect around Paris, reflecting the impact of long established government institutions. Here is a comparison of the linguistic diversity of Europe compared to Africa https://www.languagesoftheworld.info...nd-europe.html


The frequent fragmented languages of Africa, where in a relatively small area you have numerous languages, reflects the lack of long standing nation states with centralized laws and administrations in the modern sense. The fact that Sub Sahara Africa retained the nations established by colonialism supports this. Poland disappeared as a separate nation for as long as colonialism existed in Africa, yet managed to still reappear. The Africans retained the national boundaries set by the European colonialist, since for the most part they had no native states to replace them. What native states there were in Africa would have resulted in an Africa an order of magnitude more fragmented than today.

3. Poor and underdeveloped internal and external transportation system before the Europeans. Africa lacked a network of road systems comparable to that found in Europe or other places, and they had nothing comparable to the canal network that was built in Europe and Asia before Africa was colonized. Much have the transportation in Africa was by human porters, which would limit the amount of goods that could be carried. While Africa is rather poor in good natural harbors along the west coast, neither did the Africans do much work to overcome such deficiencies, nothing comparable to the artificial harbor the Romans built in Caesarea in Palestine. And artificial canals were few in Africa to remedy the deficiencies of natural water ways. Again, while it might be argued that Europeans didn't do much to remedy the limited internal transportation network, they did not create it.

4. African was plagued by diseases like malaria, Ebola, and others, which they Europeans did not create.

I don't deny people have agency since the end of colonialism that is true. But consider the inheritance Africa got a random boarders, economies designed to feed the west as by in large just basic resource producers,

Africans could have junked and redrawn the borders themselves at the end of colonialism, but didn't, mainly because they had nothing really to replace the borders with. What is often not pointed out is that it is often the case that a large number of different ethnic groups live in close geographic proximity to each other. It would have been very difficult, next to impossible, to draw in many cases country boundaries based on just ethnicity. The same landscape is filled with a quilt work patch of different ethnic groups. How could a map of Rwanda been drawn that gave separate countries to the Tutsi and the Hutus?

lack of education (How many universities did the Congo have under Belgium and how many students were sent off university in Europe - about zero - but at least the Belgians made sure a lot of African residents of the free state would never have to be scolded for not using the 10 and 2 position when driving.)

Exactly how many universities were there in the Congo before the Belgiums? None. How many printing presses? None either. The printing press existed for 4 hundred years before Belgium colonized the Congo, yet in all that time the people of the Congo never got around to adopting it. The lack of education in Congo is as much the blame as the people of the Congo. Universities in Europe, like Oxford and Cambridge, were more than 500 years old before the Belgiums conquered the Congo, so the lack of universities isn't all the fault of Belgium.

intentionally increased ethnic rivalry, a legacy of often long and bitter wars for independence... what exactly would you expect from Africa but many failed states and ones that simply don't make sense and run poorly. So again maybe you face racism in the US but maybe you believe the the statue of liberty and different chance.

Ethnic rivalry existed long before the Europeans arrived on the scene, and contrary to the falsehood being spouted, it was not all peace and harmony in Africa before colonization, just as it wasn't all peace afterwards either. The Europeans certainly did not help matters, but some of the problems existed before the Europeans came. The Zulu were pretty ruthless in their conquest of other Africans, and Europeans had little to do with that.

But don't forget that chance like Europe's is built on a lot of boots on other peoples necks. Opium wars much?

As was everybody elses chances. Africans raided Europe for slaves well until the 19th century, and only stopped when Europeans used forced and conquered north Africa. China under the Qing commited genocide against the Dzungar mongols, and still practices colonialism against the Tibetans today. Or did you happen to miss China's invasion of Tibet? The western half of China was obtained by colonialism and conquest of the native people. The Zulu expanded into southern Africa at the expense of the natives already living there.