MINISTERIAL OFFICES ancillaries

[Tripledot]

That's what I said. These were not offices but titles

I don't see the distinction. The Admiral of France was an office same as the Grand Seneschal or Constable. The title of Captain General of the Sea in Venice was granted by the Great Council of Venice, and wasn't a rank in the modern sense, if that's what you mean, even if more experienced sailors were usually chosen for the office. I don't see how that's different from other crown/state officers.

The book I linked, War at Sea in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, mentions admiral as an office in England, France, Zeeland, Castile, Aragon, and the Almohads (as amir al-bahr).

[Lifthrasir]

According to your links:

Admiral of France (French: Amiral de France) is a French title of honour. It is the naval equivalent of Marshal of France and was one of the Great Officers of the Crown of France.

Marshal of France (French: Maréchal de France, plural Maréchaux de France) is a French military distinction, rather than a military rank, that is awarded to generals for exceptional achievements.

I might be blind but I haven't seen any mention of any office.

[Used2BRoz]

King Henry III of England appointed the first known English Admiral Sir Richard de Lucy on 29 August 1224.^[1] De Lucy was followed by Sir Thomas Moulton in 1264,^[1] who also held the title of Keeper of the Sea and Sea Ports. Moulton was succeeded by Sir William de Leybourne, (the son of Sir Roger de Leybourne) as Admiral of the Sea of the King of England. In 1286 he was appointed Admiral of the Navy,^[2] holding the rank of admiral until 1294^[1] and serving under King Edward I of England. As the English Navy was expanding towards the end of the thirteenth century, new appointments of admirals with specific administrative and geographic responsibilities were created. Sir John de Botetourt was appointed Admiral of the North in 1294. This position existed until 1412.^[1] Also in 1294, the king appointed Sir William de Laybourne to the dual commands of Admiral of the South, (1294-1412) and Admiral of the West, (1294-1412). The first royal commission as Admiral to a naval officer was granted in 1303 to Gervase Alard.^[3] By 1344 it was only used as a rank at sea for a captain in charge of a fleet or fleets.^[3] In 1364 the office of Admiral of the North and West was created until 1414.^[1] Beginning in 1408 these admirals' responsibilities were gradually absorbed by the office of the High Admiral of England, Ireland and Aquitaine (later Lord Admiral of England) leading to a centralized command by 1414. In 1412 the Admiral of the Narrow Seas was established briefly until 1413. It was revived on a more permanent basis from 1523, until lapsing again in 1688.

from wikipedia

There already exists an admiralty building, could use that as a trigger for creation of ancillary High Admiral. Could give a Loyalty bonus to whoever is awarded it. You'd probably only want one per faction. For Generals or FMs.

[Tripledot]

According to your links:



I might be blind but I haven't seen any mention of any office.

I thought their title (officers of France) implied that those were offices. I don't get why Marshal would be considered an office in-game (which it is) but not Admiral. I really don't understand your line of argument, are you saying that these titles were merely honorary or something, because it seems to me that no, they weren't, and that admirals had actual jurisdiction over naval production, fleets, and warfare.

[Lifthrasir]

After further researches, I've to admit I was wrong. My bad
Another example that Wikipedia has to be taken with caution
According to a book called "Medieval France: An encyclopedia", the position of admiral is described as follow:

The responsabilities of the French admirals, who were paid extremly well for their services, including overseeing the fleet's in Mediterranean and Atlantic, installing police and judicial officials in the port towns, organizing pay for naval troops, and sitting in judgement over naval illegalities. Lieutenants or vice-admirals frequently assisted them in these duties. Admirals also sat in the Grand' Chambre of Parlement and at the Table de Marbre, a special tribunal for cases involving military, naval and forestry affairs.

This is also confirmed somehow and in a similar way in another book named "England's Medieval Navy 1066-1509: Ships, Men & Warfare".
It also sems that ERE and Muslims realm had a similar organization.
But not sure what the bonus for such office should be authority? Public order?

[removeduser_28376423423]

But not sure what the bonus for such office should be authority? Public order?

But wouldn't that have to be an ancillary supposedly carried by an admiral? I think command and small movement speed could make sense. Also, admirals, unlike captains, can actually get ancillaries if i remember correctly.

[kaiser29]

Imho the ministerial offices system is a great concept, but it is kinda ruined by the fact that is connected to the ancillaries mechanism. So you get the annoying task of making your faction leader travel to the right city, make sure a turn has passed, and then he has to reach the selected general. In game terms this could last more than three years if we are talking about big empires. And it could be even more annoying during ongoing wars.

Wouldn't it be easier for generals to get a ministerial office without involving the physical movement of the faction leader? Something like: if general X is in a city with baron stables, and he is not the faction leader, and he is military minded, he will have every turn N% to get the master of horse (or whatever it is called) office.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Imho the ministerial offices system is a great concept, but it is kinda ruined by the fact that is connected to the ancillaries mechanism. So you get the annoying task of making your faction leader travel to the right city, make sure a turn has passed, and then he has to reach the selected general. In game terms this could last more than three years if we are talking about big empires. And it could be even more annoying during ongoing wars.

Wouldn't it be easier for generals to get a ministerial office without involving the physical movement of the faction leader? Something like: if general X is in a city with baron stables, and he is not the faction leader, and he is military minded, he will have every turn N% to get the master of horse (or whatever it is called) office.

Actually, it's intended. It's a compromise between a notion of the need for the Faction Leader to be in the capital (or rather the center of his realm, there're no capitals in the MA). This concept may be implemented with negative effects if the FL is too long out of the capital (this is the way EBII dealt with the Ptolemaioi ruler - the faction get's into trouble, iirc), or with positive incentives. The latter is my way: you will get your Ministerial Office if you're in a right city.

However, I think you may be mixing Ministerial offices (a few in the game) and Provincial titles (one for each settlment). In the latter it's not the FL who should go to the right city, but a general himself can get the title. It's enough that that general doesn't have any other Provincial title.

[j.a.luna]

I don't see the distinction. The Admiral of France was an office same as the Grand Seneschal or Constable. The title of Captain General of the Sea in Venice was granted by the Great Council of Venice, and wasn't a rank in the modern sense, if that's what you mean, even if more experienced sailors were usually chosen for the office. I don't see how that's different from other crown/state officers.

The book I linked, War at Sea in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, mentions admiral as an office in England, France, Zeeland, Castile, Aragon, and the Almohads (as amir al-bahr).

Jurand do you plan add the office tittle for Admiral?( Also with privileges for traditionally maritime factions such as Venetians, Norwegians / Danes, Byzantines ...? or is it currently already added?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Jurand do you plan add the office tittle for Admiral?( Also with privileges for traditionally maritime factions such as Venetians, Norwegians / Danes, Byzantines ...? or is it currently already added?

No, because there're no admirals as separate characters, and because fleets were very marginal in the Middle Age warfare.