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Thread: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

  1. #1

    Default Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    After seeing this trait come up on some of my FMs from time to time, and never once seeing the antitrait on ANY of my FMs, i decided to check all of them to see how many had the RacesHatesRomanVice trait.

    Hates the games: no kidding, about half of my "older" FMs (40+ yrs) have some level of this trait.
    Likes the games: NONE

    Is there a bug with this trait line??? i should have at least a couple FMs that like games/races.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    I have played a shortish Roman campaign (200-300 turns, methinks) and none of my FMs actually liked the games/races.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    That trait seems to occur from staying in a town that does not have at least Funeral and Votive games. I don't think that should be exactly how it works, as there are multiple reasons for a town not having an arena, such as not having even reached the applicable size to be able to build them. But if you do actually build them, or switch games from Yearly, you will notice that the antitrait actually exists. It just does not happen randomly from staying in a city with an arena.

  4. #4
    Rosbjerg's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Early game you should generally not keep your FMs in cities, unless they have a reason for being there. They need to be out in the field, preferably fighting.

    I only keep them in cities if they are under 20, Quaestors (in Italy) or Praetors / Legates / Govenors in conquered lands.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosbjerg View Post
    Early game you should generally not keep your FMs in cities, unless they have a reason for being there. They need to be out in the field, preferably fighting.
    I thought only by staying in settlements can characters give births to children...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by nvm View Post
    That trait seems to occur from staying in a town that does not have at least Funeral and Votive games. I don't think that should be exactly how it works, as there are multiple reasons for a town not having an arena, such as not having even reached the applicable size to be able to build them. But if you do actually build them, or switch games from Yearly, you will notice that the antitrait actually exists. It just does not happen randomly from staying in a city with an arena.
    I think the hatesgames trait should only appear on settlements that DO have an arena/amphitheater, just as the antitrait. Other factors should play a part in triggering both of the trait lines, (a selfish FM should have a higher chance to get HatesGames, just as a Unselfish FM should have a higher chance to get LikesGames... something along these lines)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosbjerg View Post
    Early game you should generally not keep your FMs in cities, unless they have a reason for being there. They need to be out in the field, preferably fighting.

    I only keep them in cities if they are under 20, Quaestors (in Italy) or Praetors / Legates / Govenors in conquered lands.
    I have the following method: If FM is Sharp, i keep him in a settlement with lvl3 Academy (usually in main Italy) until he gets the Erudite trait, up until 28 yrs of age. As soon as he gets that, i keep them out of any town and hunting down small rebel stacks until they have full 7.5 yrs of service. From Quaestor up to Praetor they stay in towns. After Consul, the ones with the best military traits go out to lead armies.

    Quote Originally Posted by tentaku View Post
    I thought only by staying in settlements can characters give births to children...
    FMs in settlements have a higher chance of giving birth, but they can have children outside of towns.

  7. #7
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Senator Roma_Victrix: Senator Rospokadu! I don’t often see you enjoying the pleasures of the vulgar crowd.
    Senator Rospokadu: I do not pretend to be a man of the people, Senator. But I do try to be a man for the people.


    I played a 1000-turn Roman campaign as you can see in the screenshots thread, so I also came across this problem with traits from time to time. However, there was always at least a minority of my family members who loved the games or races. Sometimes they didn't have any related traits at all, so I guess that means they were just neutral or disinterested. Heh. I never knew how this worked or why they gained these traits, but I guess it does have something to do with the presence of an arena or not, or whether or not you're hosting daily games to appease the public.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Senator Roma_Victrix: Senator Rospokadu! I don’t often see you enjoying the pleasures of the vulgar crowd.
    Senator Rospokadu: I do not pretend to be a man of the people, Senator. But I do try to be a man for the people.


    I played a 1000-turn Roman campaign as you can see in the screenshots thread, so I also came across this problem with traits from time to time. However, there was always at least a minority of my family members who loved the games or races. Sometimes they didn't have any related traits at all, so I guess that means they were just neutral or disinterested. Heh. I never knew how this worked or why they gained these traits, but I guess it does have something to do with the presence of an arena or not, or whether or not you're hosting daily games to appease the public.
    Fear and wonder, a powerful combination!

  9. #9
    Rosbjerg's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by tentaku View Post
    I thought only by staying in settlements can characters give births to children...
    True, but you rarely need the boost, they often have 2-3 kids even when campaigning.
    I've found I've had to turn down marriage request (unless the game focuses on one FM for marriage), to keep the number of FMs manageable.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosbjerg View Post
    True, but you rarely need the boost, they often have 2-3 kids even when campaigning.
    I've found I've had to turn down marriage request (unless the game focuses on one FM for marriage), to keep the number of FMs manageable.
    Yes, after turn 120+ births skyrocketed for me. Sometimes i even reload to a previus turn if i had too many children (sometimes up to 8 on one turn). By doing that i like to keep a max of 4 children per year, ideally less than that.

  11. #11
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by Rospokadu View Post
    Fear and wonder, a powerful combination!
    The beating heart of Rome is not the marble of the Senate, it's the sand of the Colosseum. Rospokadu will bring them death...and they will love him for it.

  12. #12
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    The Games Fan/Games Hater Traits have a bunch of triggers, most of them seem to be connected to the building line small_gymnasium which for Romans is probably the arena building. And yes, if your FM is in a settlement without that building line, he will have a 2% chance each turn to become a hater of races/games. The contrary also applies, if he is in a settlement with that building and he has not the Hate races/games trait, he will get chances to get the races/games fan. There are other traits such as a governor throwing games/races has increased chances to become a fan, but check the export_desc_character_traits.txt for more information.
    Last edited by Lusitanio; June 14, 2019 at 07:10 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    That is a failed trait mechanism. It is absurd that a governor of a region should stay out of his own capital if he has not built some piece of infrastructure that is not yet available in the tech tree.

    I am going to start inciting discontent towards our mayor because the city's schools still do not have holodecks for learning environments. The mayor obviously hates education, and he better stay out of town until we see some holodecks.

  14. #14
    Rosbjerg's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    It's pretty much a carbon copy from Rome Total War, but yeah it could use being toned down a notch.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by Rospokadu View Post
    I think the hatesgames trait should only appear on settlements that DO have an arena/amphitheater, just as the antitrait.
    I agree so much on this part. I hate it when I have a governor in a small town and he gains those bad traits just because the small town cannot build those buildings yet! The game should at least check the town level before handing out this kind of bad traits that happen due to absence of certain buildings...

  16. #16

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosbjerg View Post
    True, but you rarely need the boost, they often have 2-3 kids even when campaigning.
    I've found I've had to turn down marriage request (unless the game focuses on one FM for marriage), to keep the number of FMs manageable.
    wow forced celibacy for the sake of the RAM....

  17. #17

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I am going to start inciting discontent towards our mayor because the city's schools still do not have holodecks for learning environments. The mayor obviously hates education, and he better stay out of town until we see some holodecks.
    Next turn you appear outside the city as a rebel unit...

  18. #18
    Rosbjerg's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by tentaku View Post
    wow forced celibacy for the sake of the RAM....
    There ain't no random acces to my maidens!
    Last edited by Rosbjerg; June 17, 2019 at 12:51 AM.

  19. #19
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Guys, I agree with you on the part that this Roman Hater/Roman Fan of races and games has triggers that do not make sense. Indeed, why would someone hate a sport that never even saw in his city?
    That's why, instead of complaining about it, I reworked the triggers for that trait and will present it to the team.

    What did I change?

    Now, instead of becoming a races/games fan simply because there is an arena type building in the city or becoming a races/games hater because there isn't, your FMs will like or dislike the games/races according to their intelligence. If their Natural Intelligence level is 4 or more, they have 3% chances to dislike races/games but, to compensate, 1% chances to like games/races (because really intelligent people normally don't pay much attention to sports but there are exceptions). If their Natural Intelligence level is 3 or less, they have 3% chances to like games/races and 1% chances to dislike them. There are two extra triggers, one gives 1% chances to dislike games/races if the FM has the trait scholarly at level 2 or more (Erudite or more, you don't have to worry about it if he is just cultured). And other trigger that also gives 1% chances to like games/races if the FM is unschooled.

    All this triggers only aplly if your FM is in a settlement that has the supposed arena building that is the same that was used for the older triggers.

    You can see the new triggers by yourself and if you have expertise, you can change them on your export_descr_character_traits.txt files. Take caution when copying because this copy past thing changes where the text lines were supposed to be.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Code:
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger RacesHaterRomanViceFromIntelligence1
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait NaturalIntelligence > 3
    	and not Trait RacesFanRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects RacesHaterRomanVice  1  Chance  3
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger RacesHaterRomanViceFromIntelligence2
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait NaturalIntelligence > 3
    	and not Trait RacesHaterRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects RacesFanRomanVice  1  Chance  1
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger RacesHaterRomanViceFromScholarly
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait Scholarly > 1
    	and not Trait RacesFanRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects RacesHaterRomanVice  1  Chance  1
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger RacesFanRomanViceFromUnschooled
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait Unschooled > 0
            and not Trait RacesHaterRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects RacesFanRomanVice  1  Chance  1
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger RacesFanRomanViceFromIgnorance1
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait NaturalIntelligence < 4
            and not Trait RacesHaterRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects RacesFanRomanVice  1  Chance  3
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger RacesFanRomanViceFromIgnorance2
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait NaturalIntelligence < 4
            and not Trait RacesFanRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects RacesHaterRomanVice  1  Chance  1
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    ; Games Hater, Games Fan triggers
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger GamesHaterRomanViceFromIntelligence1
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait NaturalIntelligence > 3
    	and not Trait GamesFanRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects GamesHaterRomanVice  1  Chance  3
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger GamesHaterRomanViceFromIntelligence2
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait NaturalIntelligence > 3
    	and not Trait GamesHaterRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects GamesFanRomanVice  1  Chance  1
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger GamesHaterRomanViceFromScholarly
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait Scholarly > 1
    	and not Trait GamesFanRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects GamesHaterRomanVice  1  Chance  1
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger RacesFanRomanViceFromUnschooled
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait Unschooled > 0
            and not Trait GamesHaterRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects GamesFanRomanVice  1  Chance  1
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger RacesFanRomanViceFromIgnorance1
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait NaturalIntelligence < 4
            and not Trait GamesHaterRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects GamesFanRomanVice  1  Chance  3
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------
    Trigger RacesFanRomanViceFromIgnorance2
      WhenToTest CharacterTurnEndInSettlement
    
    
      Condition FactionType f_rome
            and SettlementBuildingExists > small_gymnasium
    	and Trait NaturalIntelligence < 4
            and not Trait GamesFanRomanVice > 0
    
    
      Affects GamesHaterRomanVice  1  Chance  1
    
    
    ;------------------------------------------

  20. #20

    Default Re: Roman FMs and their hatred for games/races

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Indeed, why would someone hate a sport that never even saw in his city?
    That's why, instead of complaining about it, I reworked the triggers for that trait and will present it to the team.
    I am happy that you took the initiative to suggest a fix for what probably many of us see as dysfunctional trait mechanism. BUT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    [...] your FMs will like or dislike the games/races according to their intelligence. If their Natural Intelligence level is 4 or more, they have 3% chances to dislike races/games but, to compensate, 1% chances to like games/races (because really intelligent people normally don't pay much attention to sports but there are exceptions). If their Natural Intelligence level is 3 or less, they have 3% chances to like games/races and 1% chances to dislike them. There are two extra triggers, one gives 1% chances to dislike games/races if the FM has the trait scholarly at level 2 or more (Erudite or more, you don't have to worry about it if he is just cultured). And other trigger that also gives 1% chances to like games/races if the FM is unschooled.
    Are you serious or is that some kind of joke? I am not in opposition of that view per se (that there might be some kind of negative correlation between enthusiasm about sports and IQ), but generally it is dangerous to associate preferences like that with attributes such as intelligence. Just like with political views; on the left people tend to think that only unschooled oafs subscribe to right-wing views while on the right they think that only a naive nincompoops can tolerate associating with the left. The truth is that people of all levels of intellect can come to opposing views in their thinking depending on their personal preferences, life experience, and social connections. We all live in some kinds of social bubbles; mine is the kind in which most people have a master's degree or a PhD yet like sports.

    Classical sources do tell us that upper-class people in Rome would generally go out to have lunch during the more brutal shows in the games, but since the games as a whole were of religious nature and organized by the ruling elite, I think we would do well not to factor in intelligence as such. It is unlikely that a particularly slow-witted local ruler would have put much more effort into the games than an intelligent one.

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