Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 53

Thread: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

  1. #1
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,033

    Default Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Hello, i've gotten a new strat-model for Hyrule Total War that i'd really like to see in the submod which is releasing in two days.

    Bantu Chieftain made it out of the Undying Nephalim's battle-model, and i've tried using both one and two textures - both .TGA and .TGA.DDS - none worked.

    I looked into the .CAS-file and saw that it had the empire_capitan-texture from Warhammer as a required file. I've placed it inside of models_strat/textures and also added a faction with it's line that is not in use - as required by the tips on the CTD-thread.

    Still, it crashed - and i have no idea why or if it's the texture, the model or the entry..

    Neph never made proper models for the Oocca faction on the map, so unless this one is properly implemented i'm forced to use a placeholder model of another faction from version 4.6 of the game. But this one that is not working is a proper model for the faction.

    Code that fails to work inside of descr_model_strat. The names are correct for the .cas and .tga/.tga.dds texture files.

    Code:
    type                oocca_stratsoldier
    skeleton            strat_named_with_army
    scale                0.8
    indiv_range            40
    texture                papal_states, models_strat/textures/ooc_main2.tga
    texture                wizzrobe, models_strat/textures/Empire_capitan.tga
    texture                slave, models_strat/textures/ooc_main2.tga
    model_flexi_m            models_strat/ooc_general.CAS, max
    shadow_model_flexi        models_strat/shadow_sword.CAS, max
    CTD-message:

    Code:
    2:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing mods/Hyrule/data/models_strat/textures/ooc_main2.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing mods/Hyrule/data/models_strat/textures/ooc_main2_gloss.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing data/models_strat/textures/ooc_main2_gloss.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing mods/Hyrule/data/models_strat/textures/ooc_gloss.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing data/models_strat/textures/ooc_gloss.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists:   found mods/Hyrule/data/models_strat/textures/Empire_capitan.tga (from: D:\Games\SEGA\Medieval II Total War)
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing mods/Hyrule/data/models_strat/textures/Empire_capitan_gloss.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing data/models_strat/textures/Empire_capitan_gloss.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing mods/Hyrule/data/models_strat/textures/Empire_gloss.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing data/models_strat/textures/Empire_gloss.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing mods/Hyrule/data/models_strat/textures/ooc_main2.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing mods/Hyrule/data/models_strat/textures/ooc_main2_gloss.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing data/models_strat/textures/ooc_main2_gloss.tga
    19:52:10.569 [system.io] [info] exists: missing mods/Hyrule/data/models_strat/textures/ooc_gloss.tga
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Mr_Nygren; June 13, 2019 at 02:36 PM.
    Be your friend's, true friend. Return gift for gift. Repay laughter, with laughter again
    but betrayal with treachery.

    - The Havamal

  2. #2
    bitterhowl's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Russian Feodality
    Posts
    613

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    In my experience with this you only need to copy texture that written in .cas into /textures folder without any new lines in character record.

    My sister, do you still recall
    The blue Hasan and Khalkhin-Gol?

    Because AI is dumb and full of errors.

  3. #3
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,033

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Quote Originally Posted by bitterhowl View Post
    In my experience with this you only need to copy texture that written in .cas into /textures folder without any new lines in character record.
    Yes, mine as well - i did it because of safety. Still it did CTD so this doesn't help with the issue.
    Be your friend's, true friend. Return gift for gift. Repay laughter, with laughter again
    but betrayal with treachery.

    - The Havamal

  4. #4
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,033

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Bantu Chieftain re-riged the model based on a second model, and it still caused the crash when about to start loading the campaign. I tried adding it to Warcraft Total War with the same crash - i am guessing the model has an issue.. But what?
    Last edited by Mr_Nygren; June 15, 2019 at 04:09 PM.
    Be your friend's, true friend. Return gift for gift. Repay laughter, with laughter again
    but betrayal with treachery.

    - The Havamal

  5. #5
    Gigantus's Avatar The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Modding Emeritus

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Goa - India
    Posts
    47,425
    Blog Entries
    24

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    If the texture was the problem then you would get an 'out of video memory' error. The texture itself is humongous: 1024*1024. Unless you want your mod to turn into a slide show I would suggest to reduce that to the default 256*256.

    Just looking at the size of the CAS\MS3D files I am of no doubt what caused the crash: vertex count. (12K!!!!) This tut might help you to take of the count problem.

    A standard quality unit strat model will come in at about 1.5K vertices, CAS file below 100KB and M3SD at about 200KB and uses a 256*256 texture. Anything above that is a waste of detail and a strain on graphic processing (or a crash in your case).
    Last edited by Gigantus; June 24, 2019 at 08:22 AM.



  6. #6
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,033

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    If the texture was the problem then you would get an 'out of video memory' error. The texture itself is humongous: 1024*1024. Unless you want your mod to turn into a slide show I would suggest to reduce that to the default 256*256.

    Just looking at the size of the CAS\MS3D files I am of no doubt what caused the crash: vertex count. (12K!!!!) This tut might help you to take of the count problem.

    A standard quality unit strat model will come in at about 1.5K vertices, CAS file below 100KB and M3SD at about 200KB and uses a 256*256 texture. Anything above that is a waste of detail and a strain on graphic processing (or a crash in your case).
    Thanks, but i tried following this guide and ran into the issue with the "Balancer Light"-program not being able to handle any models with more than 15k triangles. This model has 18k triangles so it can't be loaded. It states something about using Balancer Demo instead?
    Be your friend's, true friend. Return gift for gift. Repay laughter, with laughter again
    but betrayal with treachery.

    - The Havamal

  7. #7
    Gigantus's Avatar The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Modding Emeritus

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Goa - India
    Posts
    47,425
    Blog Entries
    24

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    I am afraid I am a total noob when it comes to these things, this tutorial is as far as progressed. I don't have a link to the balancer tool, but I am sure it's worth following up. Bantu Chieftain isn't around any more to help out?



  8. #8
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,033

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    I am afraid I am a total noob when it comes to these things, this tutorial is as far as progressed. I don't have a link to the balancer tool, but I am sure it's worth following up. Bantu Chieftain isn't around any more to help out?
    I wrote to him, i hope he will help out in reducing the polygons. I also found that the program is easy to use, but they do not allow you to save any progress unless you pay for it if using the demo-version. If using the "Lite"-version they do not allow as many triangles and polygons. They do allow 10k poly and 15k triangles - but the model in question has 12k poly and 18k triangles.

    The demo version could handle the model, but then they do not allow me to save it. I also am unable to pay for anything on the internet due to an old court decision. Since 2017 they removed the "internet bank" for me and others that have a particular situation in Sweden. I hate the country since ten years ago - but at least i had an internet bank up until 2017. Swedbank changed it's policies and removed the service for people like me.

    When trying to find a cracked version i ran into a virus. I've just removed it - it's annoying how every file you want has a malware using the same name.
    Last edited by Mr_Nygren; June 25, 2019 at 11:23 PM.
    Be your friend's, true friend. Return gift for gift. Repay laughter, with laughter again
    but betrayal with treachery.

    - The Havamal

  9. #9
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,033

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    If the texture was the problem then you would get an 'out of video memory' error. The texture itself is humongous: 1024*1024. Unless you want your mod to turn into a slide show I would suggest to reduce that to the default 256*256.

    Just looking at the size of the CAS\MS3D files I am of no doubt what caused the crash: vertex count. (12K!!!!) This tut might help you to take of the count problem.

    A standard quality unit strat model will come in at about 1.5K vertices, CAS file below 100KB and M3SD at about 200KB and uses a 256*256 texture. Anything above that is a waste of detail and a strain on graphic processing (or a crash in your case).
    Originally Posted by makanyane
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ykk0hdnnn5...bones.zip?dl=0

    I managed to get the lite version to reduce the model by chopping the arms off and doing each of them and the body separately!

    Have re-done the bone assignment the way it was in the larger model (everything apart from the arms is assigned to the torso - there won't be any head/'leg' movement)

    I can't convert it to .cas to test - I haven't got Max here, and I've got a late version of python that won't run GOAT.

    Can you convert it - or find someone to do that?


    I will look at the other settlement strat models at some point - but need to get back to testing IWTE at the moment as wilddog is hoping to release a new version before Xmas...


    I did manage to convert it using an older version of Goat_Coal. - The size is much smaller and at 333kb instead of 1665 or something.

    But for some reason it still CTD before entering the campaign at the loading screen even before the loading starts.

    I've replaced the lines correctly. I may need to ask in the thread i created a few months back as you've solved the size-problem but for some reason the model can't enter the game anyway. I wonder if the model might have some issues causing it not to start. In warcraft: Total War we did have some strat models like that. But Bantu managed to fix them somehow.

    I did use this converter: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=1797

    The converted .cas-file:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/19s3...ew?usp=sharing

    Code:
    type				oocca_stratsoldier
    skeleton			strat_named_with_army
    scale				0.8
    indiv_range			40
    texture				papal_states, models_strat/textures/ooc_main2.tga
    texture				slave, models_strat/textures/ooc_main2.tga
    model_flexi_m			models_strat/oocca_general.CAS, max ;shadow_model_flexi		models_strat/shadow_sword.CAS, max
    Code:
    faction			papal_states
    dictionary		15
    strat_model		oocca_stratsoldier
    battle_model	commandant battle_equip	gladius, chainmail shirt helmet and rectangular shield
    I also tried changing the size of the textures to 256/256 but it would still CTD before the loading starts. However, the background of the loading screen are showing for a sec or two before the CTD.
    Last edited by Mr_Nygren; December 10, 2019 at 11:07 AM.
    Be your friend's, true friend. Return gift for gift. Repay laughter, with laughter again
    but betrayal with treachery.

    - The Havamal

  10. #10

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    You've reached the end of my knowledge about these...

    The only thing I noticed is your converted.cas has;
    textures\Empire_capitan.tga
    at the bottom as the texture - that file will need to exist or it will crash the game (even though you're not using it in the text files) - my version of your mod has an Empire_capitan.tga so it should be fine... just be aware of that, in case you've tidied it up, or are trying it in a different mod that doesn't have that texture.

  11. #11
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,033

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Quote Originally Posted by makanyane View Post
    You've reached the end of my knowledge about these...

    The only thing I noticed is your converted.cas has;
    textures\Empire_capitan.tga
    at the bottom as the texture - that file will need to exist or it will crash the game (even though you're not using it in the text files) - my version of your mod has an Empire_capitan.tga so it should be fine... just be aware of that, in case you've tidied it up, or are trying it in a different mod that doesn't have that texture.
    That's unfortunate..

    Yes, it does have that file i believe.

    It might be the textures or something. They might not be extracted into the correct format. or it might be something else. I've written to Bantu and sent him the file. He is less willing to help nowadays due to studies etc. But he did solve similar issues for the Horde. So i guess it'll be up to him to solve it/not solve it. It sucks if the strat-model can't be used and i'd have to stick with the 4.6 Wizzrobe strat-model instead of the Oocca one.

    But that might be the only choice unfortunately.
    Be your friend's, true friend. Return gift for gift. Repay laughter, with laughter again
    but betrayal with treachery.

    - The Havamal

  12. #12

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    aaahhh...

    I've just remembered a pm convo with Seether about a problem strat model for the Three Kingdoms mod. Chunks of info
    One of our .cas files is causing a CTD. I read that a .cas can have a maximum size of 325kb, but not sure if that is true. I reduced its size to 318kb and still the problem persists.
    I reduced it in size quite a lot - by amputating the decorative bits on each side of the helmet - that got it down to 273kb and it loads fine at that size

    wondered if it might be a tri/vert limit and not just a kb size limit?

    Third Age seem to have Sauron - which is 326kb but only 7578 verts 9761 tris
    whereas your 328kb cas converted back is 7504 verts but 10637 tris
    For reference the one I sent you back was 7844 verts 9574 tris - so it might still be a vert limit (although his non-working one was lower verts higher tris) - if you can convert to ms3d and back can you delete about 300 verts and try again? -e.g chop off a hand just for testing... (that would get it down to something smaller than worked for Sauron)

    But, I'm also wondering if it's actually an issue with the kb size or amount of tris/verts at all - or perhaps the density of verts in a particular area - as deleting the very detailed small bit of the 3K mod model solved things - and I know strat map model trees have an issue if you try having verts close together (related to shadow mapping and rendering)

  13. #13

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Hi, i compared your .cas with a working strat model and i noticed two differences:
    1. The mesh group is named Regroup7 instead of body
    2. TExture Map Id is NO-ID
    (see my attachemnts)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails working_cas.PNG   occa_general_cas.PNG  

  14. #14
    Gigantus's Avatar The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Modding Emeritus

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Goa - India
    Posts
    47,425
    Blog Entries
    24

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    How does the song go?: "Vertice killed the strat map star"?

    Here is an app that might help with reducing the vertices: Creating a World – LOD reduction without texture loss

    Otherwise as Mak said: the default texture listed in the CAS file has to be present in the (correct) texture folder, regardless if it is used. It's usual best to use it for a faction even if the name isn't intuitive. Alternatively use a zero byte file, that works just as well, even in cases were the modder forgot to add an extension to the file name (had some cases with my RotK porting). Simply open Notepad and then 'save as' with the file type drop down set to 'all files' - then enter the file name AND extension, save.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo00182 View Post
    Hi, i compared your .cas with a working strat model and i noticed two differences:
    1. The mesh group is named Regroup7 instead of body
    2. TExture Map Id is NO-ID
    (see my attachemnts)
    1. It can have any name in a strat model - even in a battle model I think, the magic there (eg multiple head use) happens via the group's 'comments' afaik. The common name use is for intuition sake.
    2. That will be the default 'attachment' (weapon) setting which usually has no texture entry in strat models. It's actually way more easy to check it by opening the CAS file with Notepad, using 'wordwrap' (the entry is in a pretty long line at the bottom):



    If there is no entry then you know you're screwed.
    Last edited by Gigantus; December 10, 2019 at 10:49 PM.



  15. #15
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,033

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jojo00182 View Post
    Hi, i compared your .cas with a working strat model and i noticed two differences:
    1. The mesh group is named Regroup7 instead of body
    2. TExture Map Id is NO-ID
    (see my attachemnts)
    Changing the name didn't help.

    How do i change the map ID?
    Be your friend's, true friend. Return gift for gift. Repay laughter, with laughter again
    but betrayal with treachery.

    - The Havamal

  16. #16
    Gigantus's Avatar The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Modding Emeritus

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Goa - India
    Posts
    47,425
    Blog Entries
    24

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Nygren View Post
    Changing the name didn't help.

    How do i change the map ID?
    Check my last post for the LOD (vertice) reducing app as well as response to Jojo's post. If you follow up on it you will realize that "textures\Empire_capitan.tga" is your default texture for the occa_general CAS file you uploaded here.
    Last edited by Gigantus; December 10, 2019 at 11:34 PM.



  17. #17
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,033

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Quote Originally Posted by makanyane View Post
    aaahhh...

    I've just remembered a pm convo with Seether about a problem strat model for the Three Kingdoms mod. Chunks of info



    For reference the one I sent you back was 7844 verts 9574 tris - so it might still be a vert limit (although his non-working one was lower verts higher tris) - if you can convert to ms3d and back can you delete about 300 verts and try again? -e.g chop off a hand just for testing... (that would get it down to something smaller than worked for Sauron)

    But, I'm also wondering if it's actually an issue with the kb size or amount of tris/verts at all - or perhaps the density of verts in a particular area - as deleting the very detailed small bit of the 3K mod model solved things - and I know strat map model trees have an issue if you try having verts close together (related to shadow mapping and rendering)
    I can't remove single parts of strat models because they are a single file. The battle models have different parts like arms, hands, weapons, body and head- but the strat models are a single body. I know Bantu did something but i don't know what he did to separate the head from the body.

    So it could be the count still.

    I'm thinking it might be something else though as you did bring it down to similar size of other models.
    Be your friend's, true friend. Return gift for gift. Repay laughter, with laughter again
    but betrayal with treachery.

    - The Havamal

  18. #18
    Mr_Nygren's Avatar Berserkir
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,033

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    How does the song go?: "Vertice killed the strat map star"?

    Here is an app that might help with reducing the vertices: Creating a World – LOD reduction without texture loss

    Otherwise as Mak said: the default texture listed in the CAS file has to be present in the (correct) texture folder, regardless if it is used. It's usual best to use it for a faction even if the name isn't intuitive. Alternatively use a zero byte file, that works just as well, even in cases were the modder forgot to add an extension to the file name (had some cases with my RotK porting). Simply open Notepad and then 'save as' with the file type drop down set to 'all files' - then enter the file name AND extension, save.


    1. It can have any name in a strat model - even in a battle model I think, the magic there (eg multiple head use) happens via the group's 'comments' afaik. The common name use is for intuition sake.
    2. That will be the default 'attachment' (weapon) setting which usually has no texture entry in strat models. It's actually way more easy to check it by opening the CAS file with Notepad, using 'wordwrap' (the entry is in a pretty long line at the bottom):



    If there is no entry then you know you're screwed.
    That won't work, Makayane used your BalancerLite app to reduce the strat-model from 18k vertices or similar to 7k or something now. She knows the details but the model went from size 1665kb to 334kb. The same CTD prevailed though. I might be able to reduce it more though as the model is now small enough to do so.

    Back when i tried it in june the program couldn't handle such a big strat model. But Makayane seems to have separated the parts of the model and reduced each part separately- then merged it back together again. So that might be possible now.

    It has the empire_capitan.tga-file in the folder. But it isn't used in the models_strat-file. But that isn't the case for others using it neither- and i tried it before and it didn't solve the ctd.

    It might be the textures as well but i'm not sure.

    Edit:

    It might be too big. The biggest other strat-model is at 240kb in size, while the Oocca is at 334kb- it's a vast improvement over the old 1665kb but might still be too big. None of the others are above 240kb.

    I tried using the BalancerLite but the vertice count went up from Makayane's numbers to even higher. So it's better to keep her model as it's smaller.

    Second Edit:

    Looking at the more recent strat-models of HTW 4.6 the one with the biggest size is at 269kb. I'm not sure where the limit is but probably a bit below 334. I'd suspect at 300.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Desktop Screenshot 2019.12.11 - 05.41.08.89.png  
    Last edited by Mr_Nygren; December 11, 2019 at 12:16 AM.
    Be your friend's, true friend. Return gift for gift. Repay laughter, with laughter again
    but betrayal with treachery.

    - The Havamal

  19. #19
    Gigantus's Avatar The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it
    Patrician Moderator Emeritus Administrator Emeritus Modding Emeritus

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Goa - India
    Posts
    47,425
    Blog Entries
    24

    Default

    I am having problems converting your CAS model back to Milkshape - neither Goat nor Grumpy's converter came up with any comment entries, nor any sensible skeleton\joints. Guess they are struggling as the model has nearly 8K vertices. Still too many is my guess. I mean 1-2K is already at the edge of what you could possibly differentiate on the strat map, so chopping this one down by at least 50% should result in a serviceable (and workable) model.

    To test your texture simply assign it to a working strat model like the princess, the model is different enough to see easily if the texture has been applied.

    Edit: Mak's model is giving me three errors when opening it in Milkshape, maybe that's related?

    ..
    Last edited by Gigantus; December 11, 2019 at 12:40 AM.



  20. #20

    Default Re: Trying to add a new strat-model to the mod - CTD when about to load?

    I think the unkown subversion bit is because I've got 1.8.5

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/0w4m9ww8ik...duced.zip?dl=0

    very quick reduction down to <4000 verts - everything is just assigned to the TORSO so arms won't move - I don't have time to fix before work

    but could you try that and see if it works - If it does we can refine -



    (when I said remove hand I just meant select the vertexes and delete... you could still try that - just select verts for the arms/head so you just keep a simple chunk like her skirt - and test that - would at least prove if its model size or an issue with my milkshape version, or the converter version etc)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •