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Thread: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

  1. #21
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Sylva View Post
    ...

    The conquest of Gallia led also to an sudden end of celtic oppida culture in Germania.
    This is why I love this site, that is news to me. The state of play when I briefly studied the European Iron Age back in the 1980's was that the increasingly militarised Gallic culture was falling back before a rising German culture, with once-Gallic tribes along the Rhine becoming "Germanised" (I forget the evidence for this though, were the Nervi an example?). Its interesting there was a cultural current flowing the other way.

    I guess post Roman "oppida culture", that is Frankish and HRE free cities eventually evolved, curiously enough with their civic magisterial culture reminiscent (sometimes self consciously so) of the Hellenic poleis. IIRC Hansa cities like Lubeck had their Consuls and Senates, their cross-Rhine cultural affiliations (in Buddenbrooks Thomas Mann outlines the mixture of xenophobia and Francophilia present among 19th century German elites) so maybe its a long term theme in German history. In Australis lux and all that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    Made my Day ...
    Its a nod (as you and Roma and the rest are no doubt) to Robert Graves' masterful and imaginative (not to mention for its day quite accurate) biography I Claudius and Claudius the God which more than any other work inspired my interest in the ancient era.
    Last edited by Cyclops; June 15, 2019 at 06:23 PM.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Well the hindsight argument is Rome could have likely made a bid for Elbe and all of Britain and Ireland. The conquests involved were not to east so no echo of Alexander to inflate a general. Maybe not cost effective outside of slaves (and timber?) but it would have provided more buffer in the west and maybe playing the gold and bribes game would have worked better when tribes got shoved off the steppes.

    I know Rome was tired after the second Civil war and Octavian's deal was stability but I think he should have pushed hard for Germany a time when no victory would risk his rule the west needed more space to be Roman.
    Last edited by conon394; June 15, 2019 at 06:24 PM.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    This is why I love this site, that is news to me. The state of play when I briefly studied the European Iron Age back in the 1980's was that the increasingly militarised Gallic culture was falling back before a rising German culture, with once-Gallic tribes along the Rhine becoming "Germanised" (I forget the evidence for this though, were the Nervi an example?). Its interesting there was a cultural current flowing the other way.
    ...
    The narrative of the Belgae, especially of the Nervii, of being from germanic origin seems more to be a myth than archaeological fact. There is at least no archaeological evidence for this. Probably the Nervii told this myth to distinct them as more warlike people from the in their eyes already decadent, too comfortable Gauls. Those warlikeness could also be caused by defending the rhine frontier against plundering germanics.

    At least the Belgae were in high degree celtizised.

    Caesar's conquest of Gallia led also to a germanic expansion in former celtic territory in Germania.

    For example the Chatti (today Hessians).

    They were originally a little Rhine-Weser-germanic tribe, which migrated into the region at the River Lahn around 10 BC, where they were neighbours of the Suebi. After the suebic Marcomanni under Marbod moved away to Bohemia, the Chatti expanded with a few hundred warriors into the region of Gießen, Fritzlar and Kassel, where they mixed with the celtic population and the remaining parts of the Suebi.

    Dorothea Rohde, Helmuth Schneider (Hrsg.): Hessen in der Antike - Die Chatten vom Zeitalter der Römer bis zur Alltagskultur der Gegenwart. Kassel, 2006. S. 37 ff.

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatten#cite_note-4

    They grow than to a bigger tribe in Germania and were part of the Arminius Coalition.

    You can say Caesar's war finally germanizised Germania completely, as he cut off the celtic tribes from their gallic trade network.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Sylva View Post
    The narrative of the Belgae, especially of the Nervii, of being from germanic origin seems more to be a myth than archaeological fact. There is at least no archaeological evidence for this. Probably the Nervii told this myth to distinct them as more warlike people from the in their eyes already decadent, too comfortable Gauls. Those warlikeness could also be caused by defending the rhine frontier against plundering germanics.
    Assuming Caesar accurately recorded their claim, what archaeological evidence would either confirm or falsify this claim?
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    I would at least expect, that the Nervii or Belgae in the oldest groundlevels of their settlement have some three-aisled longhouses, which are typical rhine-weser-germanic, or some non Latene Swords, Spears (germanic long frame).

    At my knowledge nothing of this kind was found so long.

    But perhaps we should be careful as "Germani" meaned something different in ancient times than in our modern times:

    For Caesar Germani were those tribes, which lived east of the Rhine with exception of the Germani Cisrhenani (the Eburones, the Condrusi, the Caeraesi, the Segni and the Paemani). Tacitus called the germani cisrhenani later Tungri, this name survived in the city name Tongern.

    He wrote:

    The name Germany, on the other hand, they say, is modern and newly introduced, from the fact that the tribes which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now called Tungrians, were then called Germans. Thus what was the name of a tribe, and not of a race, gradually prevailed, till all called themselves by this self-invented name of Germans, which the conquerors had first employed to inspire terror.

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ight=tungrians

    Tacitus had doubts about the claim of the Nervii and Treveri to be from germanic descent:

    That highest authority, the great Julius, informs us that Gaul was once more powerful than Germany. Consequently we may believe that Gauls even crossed over into Germany. For what a trifling obstacle would a river be to the various tribes, as they grew in strength and wished to possess in exchange settlements which were still open to all, and not partitioned among powerful monarchies! Accordingly the country between the Hercynian forest and the rivers Rhine and Mœnus, and that which lies beyond, was occupied respectively by the Helvetii and Boii, both tribes of Gaul. The name Boiemum still survives, marking the old tradition of the place, though the population has been changed. Whether however the Aravisci migrated into Pannonia from the Osi, a German race, or whether the Osi came from the Aravisci into Germany, as both nations still retain she same language, institutions, and customs, is a doubtful matter; for as they were once equally poor and equally free, either bank had the same attractions, the same drawbacks. The Treveri and Nervii are even eager in their claims of a German origin, thinking that the glory of this descent distinguishes them from the uniform level of Gallic effeminacy. The Rhine bank itself is occupied by tribes unquestionably German,—the Vangiones, the Triboci, and the Nemetes. Nor do even the Ubii, though they have earned the distinction of being a Roman colony, and prefer to be called Agrippinenses, from the name of their founder, blush to own their origin. Having crossed the sea in former days, and given proof of their allegiance, they were settled on the Rhine-bank itself, as those who might guard it but need not be watched.

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ghlight=nervii

    Further we may note:

    It is important to note that the name Germani in antiquity carried none of the linguistic significance attached to the modern term "Germanic", as in Germanic peoples and Germanic languages, with the linguistic definition grouping Indo-Germanic dialects which underwent Grimm's law. It is possible that the original Germani were, in modern terminology, Celtic, and not Germanic. The name Germani itself is assumed to be Celtic (Gaulish) in origin, and the tribal names grouped with the Germani cisrhenani seem to be Celtic as well, such as the Usipetes and Tencteri, which may be grouped as either Gauls or Belgae. The name of the Tungri, on the other hand, has been interpreted as being genuinely Germanic. Jacob Grimm even suggested that Germani represents the Celtic translation of the Germanic tribal name Tungri.[2]

    The question of the possible presence of Germanic languages on the lower Rhine in the 1st century BC is limited to placename analyses, such as those of Maurits Gysseling. As for the historicity of Caesar's account of the arrival of the Germani from beyond the Rhine, Wightman (1985) distinguishes two main scenarios, arrival in remote prehistory (as early as Urnfield times, long before the development of Germanic as a separate linguistic phylum, and predating the arrival of the Belgae with the spread of the La Tène Culture after 500 BC), or derivation of both Belgae and Germani out of the Hunsrück-Eifel culture found near the Moselle river ("The left-bank Germans would then be people who went northward across the Ardennes rather than westwards to the Marne")[1]


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German..._note-germ28-9

    A third theory (Nordwestblock theory, developed indepently from each other by Hans Kuhn[1] and Maurits Gysseling) is assuming that there was a Iron Age Nordwestblock Population, which spoke another indogerman language ("Belgian") between Celtic and Germanic:

    Kuhn noted that since Proto-Indo-European (PIE), /b/ was very rare, and since that PIE /b/, via Grimm's law, is the main source of regularly inherited /p/ in words in Germanic languages (except after fricatives such as *sp-), the many words with /p/ occurring must have some other language as source. Similarly, in Celtic, PIE /p/ disappeared and in regularly-inherited words did not reappear in p-Celtic languages except as a result of proto-Celtic *kʷ becoming *p. All that taken together means that any word starting with a /p/ in a Germanic language that is not evidently borrowed from either Latin or a p-Celtic language, such as Gaulish, must be a loan from another language. Kuhn ascribes those words to the Nordwestblock language.

    Those language shall correspondent with the Elp culture in the north (Netherlands, Northwest Germany) and the Hilversum Culture (Belgium) from 1800-800 BC.

    In the final centuries BCE, areas formerly occupied by the Elp culture emerge as the probably-Germanic Harpstedt culture west of the Germanic Jastorf culture, and the southern parts become assimilated to the Celtic La Tène culture, as is consistent with Julius Caesar's account of the Rhine forming the boundary between Celtic and Germanic tribes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordwestblock

    Personally i tend to the Northwest block theory, as it would fit to Caesars observation that Belgae and Gauls spoke different languages and it fits to their material celtic culture to times od Caesar.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; June 16, 2019 at 12:04 PM.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Sylva View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordwestblock

    Personally i tend to the Northwest block theory, as it would fit to Caesars observation that Belgae and Gauls spoke different languages and it fits to their material celtic culture to times od Caesar.
    I had read about this before and it also made sense to me for the same reasons, but it's not research I follow closely.

    What Caesar actually wrote can certainly be interpreted as geographic rather than ethnic: "plerosque Belgos esse ortos a Germanis Rhenumque antiquitus traductos propter loci fertilitatem ibi consedisse Gallosque qui ea loca incolerent expulissei" which is something like "that the greater part of the Belgae were sprung from the Germans, and that having crossed the Rhine in ancient times, they had settled there on account of the fertility of the place, and had driven out the Gauls who inhabited those regions".

    There are also types of movement that aren't always readily apparent in material culture. For example, when a relatively small group establishes themselves as an elite ruling over another population. The ruled over might eventually adopt the language and/or identity of the elites, or the elites may blend into those they rule over while retaining some sense of their history/identity. There may be clues in prestige items, but in absence of a historical record, there may not be anything to distinguish that from trade.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    For example, when a relatively small group establishes themselves as an elite ruling over another population. The ruled over might eventually adopt the language and/or identity of the elites, or the elites may blend into those they rule over while retaining some sense of their history/identity. There may be clues in prestige items, but in absence of a historical record, there may not be anything to distinguish that from trade.
    Yeah like the Chatti, which moved with only a few hundred warriors into the Giessen-Fulda-Kassel area and absorbed the celtic and suebian population there.

    We will never know, what was really was the descent of the Nervii, but as i said, the Nordwestblock theory seems fitting to me.

    Funnily the Nemetes, which are clearly germani after Tacitus, are disputed:

    Their area of settlement was the contact zone between Celtic (Gaulish) and Germanic peoples. According to Tacitus, the Nemetes were "unquestionably Germanic".[3] The name of the tribe, however, is Celtic as the name of its main town Noviomagus meaning noviios 'new' and magos 'plain', 'market' (cf. Old Irish mag 'plain'),[4] as are those of a number of gods worshipped in their territory, including Nemetona, who is thought to have been their eponymous deity.[5] Both of these names are taken to be derivations from the Celtic stem nemeto- "sacred grove".[4][5] [6]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemetes


    Obviously Caesar and Tacitus were not the most accurate ethnologists.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; June 16, 2019 at 01:46 PM.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    I wonder why the preferred elite culture along the Rhine changed from a Gallic to a Germanic one? Certainly it wasn't Caesar's invasion as the process is in train before then. Perhaps there was a social or demographic upheaval, we do see large horde like movements in the centuries before Caesar with the Italian, putative Hispanic and of course Balkan and Anatolian volkswanderung-style incursions.

    Maybe Gallic society faced some social crisis similar to the later Norse (or even the poleis of 4th century Hellas with all those exiled mercenaries), that led to the mass export of horny young men weakening the homelands. Unlike the Norse the Gallic states did not parlay their warrior surplus into a stable regional power (as the kings of Denmark were able to do).

    I suspect an internal social mechanism, or a damaging conflict between social systems, led to internal weakness in Gaul and the wider "Celtosphere". In the absence of a Gallic or Germanic Herodotus we just have to guess what processes undermined the *Teuta or raised the Teutons.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Well, in Early La Tene B (380 BC) began the celtic migrations into Italy, then along the river Danube to Balkans, Macedonia, Greece and Asia Minor. The great hill top forts and rich hill graves of mighty celtic princes vanished at this time. Also the luxus trade from Massalia and Etruria ended at this time.

    Perhaps overpopulation or hunger for spoils was the reason why the celtic tribes began to migrate southwards.

    In the Middle La Tene C time (around 250 BC) flat graves were common, which were not so rich equipped like in the Early Latene. A money economy is imported from the Mediterranean. The first oppida were built at the time, when the great roman victories in Gallia Cisalpina happened. We have a migration back in the region north of the Alps, celtic settlements are growing again.

    In the Late La Tene D or Oppida Culture (150 BC) many new oppida are founded and florishing and growing. Those oppida, as already previous shown, have a high social and economical differentiation, a high developed craftmanship and skill in art and a distance trade. The Celts are one step to a high culture away, only a own literacy is missing.

    And then came Caesar...

    Gallia has had probably 5 million people before Caesar's war.

    In Caesar's war, if Plutarch is right, 1 million Gauls was killed, 1 million enslaved. And we don't know, how much were killed by famine after the destruction of the infrastructure.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul#cite_ref-22

    But why were the Celts in South Germany and Middle Germany (north of Taunus, the river Main, Hessia) also in decline, as the war didn't hit them directly?

    In my opinion, as the big oppidum Manching is very fast abandoned after 50 BC, their protourban society didn't survived the breakdown of trade in the by the Gallic War devasted Gallia. The oppida were too differentiated. So the Celts in Germania couldn't successfull resisting the southwards expanding Germanics (and the northwards expanding Romans under Augustus).

    So in the end the fame-seeking roman Bastard deserved the daggers well.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; June 16, 2019 at 07:06 PM.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    @Carmen Sylva & Sumskilz: Have some rep, great stuff.

    Interesting observation in regard of Manching being too "differentiated"... it looks for me like the decline of those Bronze-Age-Cities in the Levant on smaller Scale.
    A shame that this Oppidium was wasted by the Luftwaffe to build a new Airport... damn nazis really wanted to get rid of our celtic heritage to promote those babarian Germans

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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    I wonder if wine played a part. Alcohol in naive populations causes havoc. No doubt Galli and Germani had mead etc but the Hellenes and Romans were producing the sweet stuff on an almost industrial scale (mead is actually sour, made some once and it was not the nectar of the gods I was expecting). maybe it was sweeter and more intoxicating than anything they ever had.

    It probably would not have hit the Gauls like it did the Australian or American aborigines, but sweet alcohol may have become a social problem, and the economic potential of a desirable foreign drug to disrupt economies is well attested: the desire for sugar from the Caribbean spawned massive pirate enterprises, and Britains dependency on Chinese tea led them to make war on the celestial kingdom, and impose their own drug imports in turn causing huge social problems.

    Probably Mediterranean wine traders would have accepted barter eg slaves (itself a deleterious trade for the self-enslaving states as we see in Atlantic Triangle Trade Africa) but maybe they preferred cold hard minae. The shift to a cash economy when you don't have a reliable or respected mint is another disruptive economic influence.

    Whatever the case, it looks like Gallic society was already tottering when Caesar delivered his roundhouse to the head.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Well in 63 BC the Aedui Tribe was heavily defeated in the battle of Magetobriga by the Coalition of the gallic Arverni Tribe, the Sequani Tribe and the germanic Suebi confederation under Ariovist and the warriors of the Aedui get massacred, especially their nobles, the Epinoi.

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Comme..._War/Book_1#31

    According to Strabo, the cause of the conflict between the Haedui and Sequani was commercial.[1] The Arar (Saône) River formed part of the border between the hereditary rivals.[2][3] Each tribe claimed the Arar and the tolls on trade along it.[4] The Sequani controlled access to the Rhine River and had built an oppidum (a fortified town) at Vesontio (Besançon) to protect their interests.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Magetobriga

    Maybe this was only the final battle in a long going war between Aedui, Sequani and Arverni and their vasall tribes.

    As the Aedui were before the battle the hegemonial power in Gallia with many tributary and vasalll tribes, they became now tributary to the Sequani and Ariovist weakened the Sequani by demanding 1/3 of their territory for his germanic confederation. The old balance of power broke in Gallia.

    Easy Game for Caesar who accepted gratefully the Aedui petition for help.

    But we don't know exactlly, if they were a series of devasting wars about trade resources and hegemony in Gallia.

    At least i don't see a celtic decline before Caesar.

    The big number of growing oppida are more a evidence for the opposite.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; June 17, 2019 at 06:53 PM.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I wonder if wine played a part. Alcohol in naive populations causes havoc. No doubt Galli and Germani had mead etc but the Hellenes and Romans were producing the sweet stuff on an almost industrial scale (mead is actually sour, made some once and it was not the nectar of the gods I was expecting). maybe it was sweeter and more intoxicating than anything they ever had.

    It probably would not have hit the Gauls like it did the Australian or American aborigines, but sweet alcohol may have become a social problem, and the economic potential of a desirable foreign drug to disrupt economies is well attested: the desire for sugar from the Caribbean spawned massive pirate enterprises, and Britains dependency on Chinese tea led them to make war on the celestial kingdom, and impose their own drug imports in turn causing huge social problems.

    Probably Mediterranean wine traders would have accepted barter eg slaves (itself a deleterious trade for the self-enslaving states as we see in Atlantic Triangle Trade Africa) but maybe they preferred cold hard minae. The shift to a cash economy when you don't have a reliable or respected mint is another disruptive economic influence.

    Whatever the case, it looks like Gallic society was already tottering when Caesar delivered his roundhouse to the head.
    As I recall Herodotus basically makes that case of Scythia the Athenians managed bringing boat loads of cheap but very strong wine that Scythians didn't cut and were getting their gain in return at significant discount to how it would played out with Greeks. Sure fancy silver things to big men, but crap strong wine really greased the wheels. Fermented mares milk is about 1-2/3% alcohol, the Greeks rolled in with what amounts to crack.
    Last edited by conon394; June 23, 2019 at 07:58 AM.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    As I recall Herodotus basically makes that case of Scythia the Athenians managed bringing boat loads of cheap but very strong wine that Scythians didn't cut and were getting their gain in return at significant discount to how it would played out with Greeks. Sure fancy silver things to big men, but crap strong wine really greased the wheels. Fermented mares milk is about 1-2/3% alcohol, the Greeks rolled in with what amounts to crack.
    My pet theory is that it takes thousands of years for a group to get itself sorted with alcohol. I could be wrong though, the Gin Craze in London (a mix of new tech and increased sugar resources leading to a glut of cheap gin and rum) lasted fifty years before social attitudes, laws and I guess natural selection calmed things down. That said I would argue London (like the British Isles and British colonies like Australia) still has a toxic drinking culture three centuries on.

    You see places where grog is a more recent arrival like Finland, Northern Russia, and Ireland which have substantial problems with alcoholism (coming in waves I imagine, first brewed and then distilled forms), unlike the Eastern med/Mesopotamia/Nile basin where fermenting may have originated (and distilling definitely did). I wonder if there's a similar radiation of effect in China, out to the periphery of SE Asia, Tibet and Eastern Siberia?

    Maybe its a three-step influx too, with primitive alcohols (eg small beers, weak wines and kvass) then more processed alcohols (stout beers, full strength/aged wines etc) then the deadly distilled liquors (and fortified wines).

    Of course its well documented what happens in naive populations when the full gamut of alcohols arrive all at once. In stone age cultures like Australia and indigenous Americans it just comes in like a wrecking ball. Sad to say if I'm right it will be along journey before people with those lineages have the physical as well as cultural adaptions to handle alcohol.

    Back to the point about Germany, IIRC most Germans that entered the Empire did so as foederati. Maybe wine was part of the recruitment process? I think the Empire wanted them, but not as much as they wanted to be part of the Empire.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Because they couldn't. Vietnam rings a bell? in the end, the Romans were ultimately overrun by the Germanic tribes. In doubt ask the Germanic volkerwanderung, the predatory migration of the third century, the knock on effects of Hunnic invasion.
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Because they couldn't. Vietnam rings a bell? in the end, the Romans were ultimately overrun by the Germanic tribes. In doubt ask the Germanic volkerwanderung, the predatory migration of the third century, the knock on effects of Hunnic invasion.
    Well there'se quite a gap between the Late Republic and the Migration Era. I think it's more a combination of factors - a somewhat unappealing climate (for a Mediterranean civilization, that is), little in the way of pre-existing infrastructure, hostile natives, logistical challenges (imperial overreach), more appealing targets elsewhere, etc. Probably also some more economic and/or environmental factors that I haven't yet read enough about.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    I don't think the Germans rolled the Western Empire, I think they just infected its rotted corpse.

    The civil wars of the Third Century, the shift of the capital to the east, social decay, the centralisation of the monarchy, Rome essentially ate itself and fell apart in the West. Fierce survivalist pragmatism under the Republic gave way to the self-defeating assumption that the Empire was eternal so gaming the tax system or outsourcing the military didn't seem suicidal, it seemed smart. We see the same futile game playing at the end of the ERE too.

    If Rome had held Germania Magna the main difference today would be the Germans, British and Irish would speak a Romance language.
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  18. #38
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    Default Re: What were the reasons why the Romans decided not venture on conquering all the lands that today are in Germany?

    Economic reasons and they realized that it was better having those Germanic tribes as a buffer against other invaders, at least Germans were not constantly invading the empire.
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