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Thread: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

  1. #161
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    China unveils details of national security law with sweeping new powers over Hong Kong

    Unfortunately for the people of Hong Kong, the Chinese government has decided to crush them underfoot just as they do to their subjects on the mainland. The people of Hong Kong's now have to choose, fight or be a slave.
    Looks to me like the people of HK have chosen to be free Chinese than Anglo slaves, bar the weak chinned traitors who fancy themselves Jeeves from an english sitcom.

    Happily, the Ministry of State Security will be taking over cases involving national security and will even be appointing their own judges for these cases.

    Hell, the fact that HK was the only place in the world which allowed foreign judges-some Australian, English etc- to decide on cases involving Chinese citizens shows the long past overdue need for reform in HK.

    I'm just chuffed knowing that the HK protests are more or less extinguished and the Americans are experiencing the lovely blowback from their little psyop from 2019 (BLM protestors are using tactics taught to the HK rioters by the CIA), and the MSS will be coming down hard on traitors and spies alike.

    Jimmy Lai for instance begged the courts to be allowed to leave the country on bail so he could escape justice but nope, not happening. Little Jimmy is gonna sit in his cell like a good little boy and await the inevitable day of justice.

  2. #162
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    Default End of Hong Kong? Warning for Taiwan?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/w...urity-law.html
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/w...w-explain.html

    Stories are popping all over. China used the new law to detain first Hong Kong citizens... Citizens of Hong Kong finally after passing the new law are able to read details what is actually in it..Hong Kong independence is just illusion heading slowly to quite different situation than it was agreed upon 23 years ago with Britain.
    The central government’s decision to impose a law effectively circumvents the Hong Kong legislature. Even Hong Kong politicians who have endorsed the law, including the territory’s top official, Carrie Lam, have said they have not been shown the full text by Beijing, which will bring into Hong Kong new crimes like inciting separatism and “colluding with foreign powers.”

    The law will also establish a new security agency in the territory to enforce the security restrictions, and Beijing will create its own separate security arm in Hong Kong, empowered to investigate special cases and collect intelligence, according to a summary issued by China’s legislature.


    The legislation also gives the territory’s chief official, who must answer to Beijing, the power to decide which judges are empowered to hear trials for state security charges, limiting the autonomy of the city’s judiciary.
    The legislation grants Beijing broad powers to crack down on a variety of political crimes, including meting out life imprisonment for “grave” offenses. But the law is rife with ambiguities.


    Already Britain offered option for British citizenship and Taiwan is offering new home for possible refugees as well while USA and maybe others will reconsider their altitude towards city.
    Prime Minister Boris Johnson of Britain has promised to allow nearly three million people from Hong Kong to live and work in the country. Mr. Johnson, however, has left unanswered questions about how those admitted might be able to obtain British citizenship.
    Taiwan said this month that it would expand efforts to provide refuge to protesters and others who wish to leave Hong Kong. The government said it could, in certain cases, provide work and study visas, as well as assistance securing housing and jobs.
    Ok, so China is probably using current Corona situation to change state of things while much of publicity is looking somewhere else (or just coincidence ). Anyway, isn´t this more likely a strong warning for Taiwan to not allow a step back from their position? To me, it is zet another signal that China is getting more nationalized but a the same time the regime is treating even slightest difference, freedom as grave danger. Muslims, foreigners, christians, Uyghurs...Does China really feel so weak internally?

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    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; July 02, 2020 at 12:37 AM. Reason: Clarification added.
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  3. #163
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    Default Re: End of Hong Kong? Warning for Taiwan?

    China is definitely taking advantage of the pandemic it helped create. Combine this with Chinese actions in the South China Sea along with its border clashes with India and you'll get a clear picture of whats happening. A rising China willing to clash with anyone.

  4. #164
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    Default Re: End of Hong Kong? Warning for Taiwan?

    Yet when one warns about China, you are either met with indifference, or with offense. Even in the West.
    I don't want to hear anything about 'values' anymore. Not after 2020.

  5. #165
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    Default Re: End of Hong Kong? Warning for Taiwan?

    We’ve been sleeping on China for too long. They’re now a greater threat than Russia. In fact, they have been for a while.

    And anyone who thinks China is not a totalitarian Communist dictatorship has been demonstrated as wrong.
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  6. #166

    Default Re: End of Hong Kong? Warning for Taiwan?

    The Politburo’s strength lies in the indifference and naïveté of the rest of the world. That’s how a regime that has systematically imprisoned, tortured, forcibly sterilized, and slaughtered tens of millions of its own people for decades, and brought this global plague upon humanity, is nevertheless bankrolled with trillions of dollars in foreign investment and treated as a world leader. Today Hong Kong, tomorrow, the world.

    They will never fight head on in a traditional war if they can help it; why should they when their current strategy has worked so well? All they need to do is keep waiting, blustering, and counting their money. The more belligerent the regime becomes, the less amenable the world will be to their ambitions, but that is a calculated risk which they have no reason to press hard enough to solidify any united opposition. In the meantime, they’ve no intention of letting good crises go to waste. If all else fails, the CCP is indispensable to the Chinese economy, and therefore, the world.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; July 01, 2020 at 04:19 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  7. #167
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    Default Re: End of Hong Kong? Warning for Taiwan?

    is nevertheless bankrolled with trillions of dollars in foreign investment and treated as a world leader. Today Hong Kong, tomorrow, the world.
    I don't think it is a dooms day. However it true the US bipartisan consensus on bringing China into the WTO was an epic failure of US (and European) listening a bit too much the promise of markets and not stopping to see the negatives. That set the stage for today. In any case Taiwan needs to figure out what it wants because pretty sure the two systems thing is now clearly a fake. If we actually had a competent president now would be the time not only offer more military aid to Taiwan but also more direct collaboration (think scientific etc) and contacts and trade deals across the board lobby hard to but them back on UN agencies.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #168
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    Default Re: End of Hong Kong? Warning for Taiwan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/w...urity-law.html
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/w...w-explain.html

    Stories are popping all over. China used the new law to detain first Hong Kong citizens... Citizens of Hong Kong finally after passing the new law are able to read details what is actually in it..Hong Kong independence is just illusion heading slowly to quite different situation than it was agreed upon 23 years ago with Britain.





    Already Britain offered option for British citizenship and Taiwan is offering new home for possible refugees as well while USA and maybe others will reconsider their altitude towards city.


    Ok, so China is probably using current Corona situation to change state of things while much of publicity is looking somewhere else (or just coincidence ). Anyway, isn´t this more likely a strong warning for Taiwan to not allow a step back from their position? To me, it is zet another signal that China is getting more nationalized but a the same time the regime is treating even slightest difference, freedom as grave danger. Muslims, foreigners, christians, Uyghurs...Does China really feel so weak internally?
    The Uighur's are Muslim and they are being systematically sterilized by the Chinese to reduce their numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I don't think it is a dooms day. However it true the US bipartisan consensus on bringing China into the WTO was an epic failure of US (and European) listening a bit too much the promise of markets and not stopping to see the negatives. That set the stage for today. In any case Taiwan needs to figure out what it wants because pretty sure the two systems thing is now clearly a fake. If we actually had a competent president now would be the time not only offer more military aid to Taiwan but also more direct collaboration (think scientific etc) and contacts and trade deals across the board lobby hard to but them back on UN agencies.
    You must get your news from one of the left-wing sources. Trump has increased military sales to Taiwan and trade over the CCP's objections. Wow! Does that mean we have a competent president?

  9. #169
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    Default Re: End of Hong Kong? Warning for Taiwan?

    You must get your news from one of the left-wing sources. Trump has increased military sales to Taiwan and trade over the CCP's objections. Wow! Does that mean we have a competent president?
    Sales are in line with basically each of the last 4 or 5 presidents. Each has just done the bare minimum to counter China's gowning military strength. Nothing to really alter the balance that is for example make Taiwan secure enough to say declare independance. If Trump was increasing say the the sale of M1A1s well past a number that just hardly replaces some deeply out dated tanks to start but instead also started to replace the outdated M-60s. Same with the F-16 fine but still just marginal incremental upgrades not say hey want subsidized F-15 Xs? And if you really want snub China how about a ton of patriots, THAADs and Aegis Ashore and why not some NASAMS with the ESSM ashore as well. Sell a ton of NSM as well to put in a system hardened locations all up and down the coast to make a cross a nightmare. But again Nothing substanive on the diplomacy get Taiwan back in the UBN even if it just the international committee on Poker rules.

    So no we do have deeply incompetent president. One who seems to think China is paying tariffs - period end stop that he has been saying that for years knows shows incompetence or stupidity or both. And if you are willing to break the WTO for a trade war than why still just the same old game on Taiwan. And why also attack your allies while doing it?
    Last edited by conon394; July 01, 2020 at 07:15 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #170
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: End of Hong Kong? Warning for Taiwan?

    This will not be the popular opinion here but:
    For good or for ill (OK, for ill) I don't care much what China does to the Chinese. Yes, I agree that it treats many of the Chinese bad, but I don't see this as more of a problem to me than how Saudi Arabia or the Emirates treat many of their people bad.
    What I do care about is the threat China presents to the current state of the world. I am willing to nod sadly and say "Horrible situation in China... now, what's for dinner?" before moving on from the unfortunate subject of what Chinese go through... but as China's influence expands and strengthens, they influence others. China already has ties and hooks into the Greek state and I am wary of that.

    That means that I don't care much about what the Chinese do to HK. Their problem, not mine.
    What I do care is what the Chinese in Greece press my government to do, and how the Chinese are setting up their "castles" in the world economy. I don't want China to covertly take over Greece as they take over Hong Kong - not in the same terms of course, but turning us to their mouthpiece.

    Russia? Russia?! As long as the West doesn't troll Russia, Russia is happy to do their thing. Yes, they have minor clashes of interest with the West but they are a very minor concern compared to the threat China presents IMO.
    Crimea? Crimea was Russian before Stalin decided to randomly give it to Ukraine just to piss off nationalists and find another reason to genocide the Tatars. Interfering in the elections of other states by abusing social media and freedom of speech? Well, I doubt they would do that if said states stopped bothering them.



    I have for decades said this to my Anti-American friends (and probably shared it here in the past):
    USA is indeed a world pimp - but it is by far the most benign from what we have seen throughout history.

    Forget the naive notion that states won't be under the thumb of a great power or two.
    If there is to be a pimp, I vastly prefer EU-USA than China to be the Great Powers influencing us.
    Last edited by alhoon; July 01, 2020 at 08:05 PM.
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  11. #171

    Default Re: End of Hong Kong? Warning for Taiwan?

    Hong Kong’s pro-democracy lawmakers announced Wednesday they would resign en masse after four of them were ousted from the semiautonomous Chinese territory’s Legislature in a move one legislator said could sound the “death knell” for democracy there.
    The resignation of the 15 remaining pro-democracy lawmakers will ratchet up tensions over the future of Hong Kong, a former British colony that has long been a regional financial hub and bastion of Western-style civil liberties but over which China’s government has increasingly tightened its control. A new national security law imposed by Beijing this year has alarmed the international community.

    “This is an actual act by Beijing ... to sound the death knell of Hong Kong’s democracy fight because they would think that, from now on, anyone they found to be politically incorrect or unpatriotic or are simply not likable to look at, they could just oust you using any means,” lawmaker Claudia Mo told reporters.
    In recent months, Beijing has increasingly clamped down on Hong Kong, which it took back control of in 1997, despite promising at the time to leave the territory’s more open legal and economic systems intact for 50 years until 2047.

    Beijing imposed a national security law in June that some have labeled draconian after anti-government protests rocked the city for months last year, and it has used it to crackdown on opposition voices.

    https://apnews.com/article/beijing-d...7b51d02987f71c
    The light has gone out in Hong Kong as she formally falls to communist tyranny. The US and Britain did nothing. Such cowardice continues to embolden and strengthen the Politburo’s power and ambition. This is the tragedy of our time.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  12. #172
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    What could the US and British even do? Sanctions?

  13. #173
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    When we handed over Hong Kong we evidently either had no plan for CCP foul play, or the government didn’t care. It’s a travesty.
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  14. #174
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    When we handed over Hong Kong we evidently either had no plan for CCP foul play, or the government didn’t care. It’s a travesty.
    I guess the British could have sent China some angry messages over it. Other than that, the UK has no other options. Its not going to sanction China and the British military is practically nothing at this point.

  15. #175

    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    When we handed over Hong Kong we evidently either had no plan for CCP foul play, or the government didn’t care. It’s a travesty.
    Indeed. As long as China has access to US and European capital through Hong Kong and private equity, all the tariffs and sternly worded letters in the world mean nothing. We created the problem of an ascendant communist China, and we continue to nourish it and expand it accordingly.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  16. #176
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Yes, if only we just complained more China wouldn't have taken Hong Kong.

  17. #177

    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Hong Kong's fate was sealed by the handover twenty-three years ago; the communists were never going to respect Hong Kong's autonomy indefinitely. The US could have committed to supporting an independent Hong Kong militarily (the UK is no position to do so), but it's much too late for that.



  18. #178

    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Well if we’re dealing in terms of if only’s, if only the British hadn’t agreed to the handover in the 80s. Part of HK territory was leased in perpetuity, the rest on a 99 year lease that provided precedent for the handover, but those terms were agreed with a completely different government/country, not the PRC. The joint declaration was therefore itself ill conceived and essentially relied upon a communist authoritarian government to honor the terms of the agreement, which it has obviously not.

    Autonomy given to Hong Kong itself along the lines of Singapore would have at least provided a geopolitical red line similar to Taiwan, and put at least some barrier between HK and the gateway to western capital that has fueled the PRC’s meteoric rise since 1997. If nothing else, once it became clear the PRC had violated the agreement beginning years ago with their encroaching control, and recently in response to the protests, strangling Hong Kong’s position as a global financial hub should have been the immediate priority of USG policy in the region. Obviously it wasn’t and it won’t be, for the same reason we didn’t do anything about Tiananmen.

    Without HK, the PRC would be stuck as an export driven economy, without HK’s reputation to facilitate access to international corporations, tech and finance. Thus the campaign to shift supply chains out of China in response to her military expansion, systematic slaughter of whole populations, and virus cover up would likely be easier and have greater impact on the regime’s behavior. So yeah, if only.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  19. #179
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cope View Post
    Hong Kong's fate was sealed by the handover twenty-three years ago; the communists were never going to respect Hong Kong's autonomy indefinitely. The US could have committed to supporting an independent Hong Kong militarily (the UK is no position to do so), but it's much too late for that.
    The handover didn't seal ts fate. The death of colonialism did. If the UK didn't hand over Hong Kong those years ago China would have just likely invaded it already. Hong Kong isn't Taiwan. Its on the mainland and thus the Chinese would always have the advantage.

  20. #180

    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    The handover didn't seal ts fate. The death of colonialism did. If the UK didn't hand over Hong Kong those years ago China would have just likely invaded it already. Hong Kong isn't Taiwan. Its on the mainland and thus the Chinese would always have the advantage.
    A military invasion means military pretext. As long as China can Anschluss its way to expansion, there will be no red line.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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