Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

[Love Mountain]

Hong Kong isn't as important to China anymore. It used to have a much bigger economic chunk of China, but not anymore. It's still a major trade and financial hub, it serves as an important point for black market trade, private equity, and probably most importantly for Chinese elites, an escape trust if they lose favor on the mainland. Chinese elites have much to lose if things in Hong Kong turn very sour.

[caratacus]

Hong Kong isn't as important to China anymore. It used to have a much bigger economic chunk of China, but not anymore. It's still a major trade and financial hub, it serves as an important point for black market trade, private equity, and probably most importantly for Chinese elites, an escape trust if they lose favor on the mainland. Chinese elites have much to lose if things in Hong Kong turn very sour.

Exactly, Hong Kong not only facilitates capital flows between China and the West to the benefit of private indiduals, it also enables substantial investment by Chinese companies.

Hong Kong critical to China but uncertainty reigns
https://www.dw.com/en/hong-kong-crit...gns/a-50041265
China doesn't need the former Crown colony quite as much as it did back in 1997 when it switched from British rule. But the Special Administrative Region remains a valuable conduit for Beijing.

In the past four decades, China has emerged as the world's second-biggest economy and an integral part of the global financial system. That rise was facilitated by Hong Kong. With economic reform still lagging on the mainland, having ready access to Hong Kong's freewheeling brand of capitalism is vital for China. China’s interests are best served by the 'one country, two systems' agreement struck with Britain in 1997, which guarantees its legislative and legal systems as well as its own currency and capitalist economy until 2047.

"Hong Kong’s stock exchange is the primary capital market for mainland Chinese companies’ IPOs; the city still boasts the most sophisticated judiciary, business arbitration and financial expertise necessary for the Belt and Road Initiative; and Hong Kong’s separate customs status allows the acquisition of sensitive strategic technology," Lee wrote in The Washington Post.

China deeply invested in Hong Kong. A look at the data shows just how devastating it would be for China, both economically and geopolitically, if it sent in military forces or activated the garrison of Chinese troops in Hong Kong itself. Chinese direct investment in Hong Kong totals $620 billion (€556 billion) — 70% more than Hong Kong's overall gross domestic product (GDP). Of the 10 biggest public listings (IPOs) since 1986, nine were Chinese.

The US-China trade spat and the blacklisting of telecoms giant Huawei have put Beijing in a bind. Chinese companies have been ordered to become less dependent on foreign money and technology, which means more of a focus on Hong Kong.

Half of all companies on the Hong Kong stock exchange are mainland companies, including 50 of the largest state-owned enterprises
Every year for 25 years, the Heritage Foundation has named Hong Kong as the world's freest economy. By comparison, China ranks a lowly 100th. Foreign companies need Hong Kong too. The territory is a base for over 1,500 multinational companies who use it as an easy way into the China market — 60% of foreign investment comes through Hong Kong.

[tgoodenow]

The divergence between the official Yuan rate and the offshore rate points to an official devaluation coming; China can’t intervene militarily in Hong Kong because it will exacerbate capital flight of the Yuan.

[B. W.]

More bad news for China. Japan and Vietnam are joining the trade war against China. Japan has agreed to buy a significant portion of US surplus soy bean production and Vietnam has agreed to stop allowing China to sneak its products through Vietnam. Both countries stand to profit from the trade war as well as Mexico and other central American countries.

China is bleeding jobs and those production facilities won't be rehiring if the factories are moved from China to other countries. It's like I said, the US made China and it can break it. China is in a trade war it can't win. The people in the semi-autonomous territory of Hong Kong are waving American flags.

[Love Mountain]

The divergence between the official Yuan rate and the offshore rate points to an official devaluation coming; China can’t intervene militarily in Hong Kong because it will exacerbate capital flight of the Yuan.

A devaluation is not a bad thing for China, so I don't know why you'd bring that up as a negative. A short-term devaluation is good for their domestic markets, even if it is a rather large one. Long-term contracts secure pricing for things like oil, gas, heavy machinery, etc. So again, this does not necessarily hamper the Chinese economy. Nor is capital flight a big issue... The relative failure of AML/CFT controls in China is important for black markets, wealthy elites hiding their money, etc. But there are more than enough measures to prevent a massive flight of capital from occurring.

If capital flight does happen, it won't be Hong Kong nationals or Chinese elites, it'll be foreign and private equity that China doesn't have any legal control over. In short, a "Tienanmen Square" event will hurt China, but it will absolutely devastate Hong Kong. China can afford it if they really want to make an example out of Hong Kong. it's just that the benefits of such a response do not really outweigh the costs. I am actually also puzzle what the best solution for the Politburo would be in this situation.

[The spartan]

So how does it work, first they protest the extradition bill and then when they don't have anything to talk about anymore they backtrack on the system of functional constituencies that the British came up with?

What do you mean "don't have anything to talk about anymore"? Do you think the issues Hong Kong has with the CCP started and stopped with the extradition bill that has not yet been withdrawn from the legislature?

Looked pretty false to me considering that the side you don't like won the popular vote in the last elections.

This would be relevant if the Legco had majority pan-democratic seats when they were winning the popular vote every single Legco election before; but they didn't, so it's not. You can't deny the relevancy of the popular vote until it turns up they way you want.

A misshap, I concede, but it doesn't really change the fact that the pro-Beijing camp has won the LegCo elections and the popular vote. It's a pretty big deal to me.

Only in the last election, in which the impact on the seat distribution was marginal. You know, because the seats were already not representing the popular vote very well. It's also really weird to laud the importance of the popular vote when you were just dismissing it's importance in earlier elections.

Realistically, not any more or less than the Electoral College for the US's presidential elections. I'll leave conclusions to you.

I guess you don't know much about the Electoral College then. It has it's problems, sure, but holy , at least we get to have a public election for every member of our legislature and executive leader. The desperation reach is real.

That damn oriental despotism, amirite.

Those damn, single-party totalitarian states, amirite?

Those are twenty-two years, my man, that's almost a quarter of a century. We're all waiting.

You're still not getting this: the CCP still signs off on the executive in what is a relatively short tradition. That alone would be seen as ludicrous in the US; if the US Federal government required a "signed off" on mayors or governors, that would certainly cause outrage here. Layer on the single-party totalitarian nature of the PRC, you are asking for an unreasonable amount of "it's fine".

Crass misrepresentation of what I said, which was that you could protest in China just the same about the government, you just can't attempt to overthrow it, that gets you to jail everywhere.

This is, perhaps, the most disgusting false equivalency of the entire post. You couldn't possible be saying "you could protest in China just the same about the government" (in comparison to Western governments) in good faith. This is even besides the everyday censorship the CCP pulls off every night on the internet; deleting people's social media comments that may upset the CCP, the US government would never dream of doing anything like that. No, we can just look at public calls for a multi-party state or public comparison of Xi to Winnie the Pooh that get's you a visit from the police for a stern talking to and then jail time (with propaganda, to be sure) if the dissident doesn't stop. You think that exists in the West?

"Attempting to overthrow the government" is a communist dog whistle for dissent, by the way. Vietnam does this to: simply calling for a multi-party state is considered "attempting to overthrow the government" which is not at all how that would be treated by Western governments. See, you would actually have to have a violent or otherwise illegal plot, that can be demonstrated in a public court of law, in order for the government to even get involved. Standing in a public forum chanting "down with the State!" wouldn't be seen as an "attempt to overthrow the government" here. Comparing Trump to Winnie the Pooh wouldn't get you arrested here. You are just trying to justify totalitarian behavior.

And it isn't as if every demonstration about the government's performance is an attempt to overthrow it, I'm sure we agree about it. Have you ever been to the Chinese part of the internet? You know, Weibo and so on, you're going to find plenty of criticism of the government, the point is that unlike in the West where the criticism is "You suck and you should get the out" the nature of the criticism in China is "You're doing a terrible job, you should do better and here's how".

How does that justify government censorship and arresting dissidents? Minor criticisms about mundane issues=OK. Criticisms about important/contentious issues=not OK. You know that that isn't how it works in the West, right?

Speaking of which, the Chinese government, according to independent sources (so it isn't Xinhua saying so) is the most highly-trusted in the world, with 79% of its general population putting its trust behind it and reaching as far as 88% for its informed population, page 7.

Gee, it is almost like the CCP controls the information about them in the Country; and they can censor any information that gets out about them that they don't like. Somehow, that makes that number seem less impressive.

I mean you can disagree with the government, it's just that your disagreement isn't going to be very popular.

Not necessarily, no. You can't disagree with the government on how to depict Xi Jinping in literature, for example. Even in Hong Kong; you may end up "disappearing" only to reappear in CCP custody to give an "apology" on TV.

Addressing Liu Xiaobo, he was sentenced multiple times (can't say they didn't give him a chance to change) for , which considering how the country works essentially amounts to attempting to overthrow the government since the communist party - and the United Front with it - are essentially the government, with its democratic legitimacy being reacquired at every election. It's what "dictatorship of the proletariat" means in Leninist terms, a vanguard party of the working class ruling the country as opposed to business interests.

And he has a record of quite literally supporting colonialism. Quoting:

When you couple this with his statement that

So...what illegal thing did he do? Advocated for things the State didn't like? Or was he actually involved in a clandestine plot against the government? From what I have read, he was arrested for being a signatory of the Charter 08 manifesto that certainly wouldn't get you arrested in the US.

See, here in more liberal countries, we don't make saying mean criticisms of the State illegal. A plot to conduct a coup would still be illegal, but I am guessing Liu was put away because of what he said and advocated for, not for being part of an active coup.

you realize that, basically, to him China needs to be forcefully colonized in order to be forcefully westernized, and not being westernized is not an option to him. Sounds like a douche to me, and a traitor.

Yes, I am sure that is the CCP talking point, and a totally fair characterization of his words. People not supporting the CCP characterize him very differently. Regardless, the fact remains he was imprisoned for speaking out against the State which isn't something that gets you arrested here in the West. Your (rather pro-CCP) views on his being a traitor (or a patriot, to someone else) is irrelevant.

Back to the trust thing, Hong Kong's population is also largely in favor of the current government, with a 55% among the general populace rising to 66% for the informed part. Since last year, Hong Kong's government has acquired 10 and 17 points of trust respectively.
Western governments by comparison are doing rather poorly.

Are you referring to something in particular here? Because when we are currently describing the situation in Hong Kong, large amounts of trust in the government is not what currently comes to mind.

I don't see any brainwashing or anything in those "camps", and the staff was allowed inside in some of these documentaries, starting from the BBC one.

Yes, only in prearranged visits that were strictly controlled and monitored. If you watch any of those numerous stories from the multitude of media agencies there, they are not very reassured while there.

Really, if you need commentary that must help you direct your thinking to where the journalists want it to be...

Coming from somebody trying to promote party-approved lines from China, I find this hilarious. You're probably right, it is more likely the multitude of independent journalism organizations are all being dishonest in unison rather than the singular, totalitarian State that has a well known practice of information censorship.

Personally I just see vocational training camps and group therapy for people in huge need of help, no eradication of Muslim religion or Turkic culture or anything. The conclusions that the journalists reach are just a huge non-sequitur and what I see doesn't back in the slightest the assertions of the press.
The funniest part may be the part of the BBC documentary in which they state that there's a writing on the bathroom's wall being like "Please help me get out of here"... and they don't show the writing.

I am sure that is how you see it; that's how the CCP wants everyone to see it. You are a little late, though, these facilities have been noticed by the rest of the world for some time now. To refer to the activities that go on in these facilities (that detainees are not allowed to leave of their own will) as "vocational training" is reeeallly creepy. If you support forcibly indoctrinating dissidents with propaganda by the State, just say so.

Which isn't to even address the more serious accusations of what happens in these secretive camps.

The truth is that China has a Uyghur (and not a general Muslim one. Huis, Muslim Tibetans and just about anyone who isn't Uyghur or to a much lower extent Kazakh are doing pretty good as far as I know. Do we hear of Hui concentration camps in Ningxia?) problem at least in some areas. Radicalization is actually a thing, the USSR supported Uyghur separatism up until the end of its existence and when that support ended with the republic of the Soviets itself, they turned their allegiances to radical Islam and movements like Al Qaeda or the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. A major Islamist formation from Xinjiang is the Turkistan Islamic Party which actually has troops on the ground as far as Afghanistan and Syria.

Yes, radicalized Islam is a thing that many countries deal with. What this has to do with detaining citizens unaffiliated with those radical Islam groups listed and placing them in camps for "reeducation" is beyond me.

That's a real issue they're taking care of.

Everyone thinks they have justified reasons for their Human Rights abuses. They are rarely ever right.

I am sure the Chinese love it when the Japanese justify the Rape of Nanjing by citing Chinese partisan groups active in the area at the time.

I've addressed this myself when I stated that Xi's enemies are a bunch of crooks so yeah, the political enemies just so happened to be crooks. So what? The party itself has a massive corruption problem at the top and I'm sure you agree with it, why is it wrong to tackle it?

How would you even know they were crooks? Because the pro-Xi faction said so? There was no public trial, just what the party leaders said happened. No doubt some corrupt officials were purged, they are numerous enough, but what about someone who was just part of an anti-Xi faction in the party that was not corrupt at all? Do you think they were spared in the purge of no trials or due process? I don't think I have seen someone actually be proud of gross totalitarian abuses in person before.

Who cares about your ulterior motives if the trash gets taken out?

Who cares if autocratic governments use autocratic means to snuff out dissent? Maybe you have gotten to that part of the History Book yet, it is a pretty dramatic chapter.

And especially why do you expect a trial from an "independent jury" (a fable, everywhere. Independent judiciaries are as real as flying donkeys) when what was breached was first and foremost party discipline?

My bad, I thought due process was an actual concept meant to allow for more just legal outcomes; but obviously I am completely wrong and all juries are rigged in some way. Oh, and the victims of the purge totally didn't face legal consequences for their non-trials, just "party discipline".

And he never declared himself president for life, he just removed the five years term. Not that I agree with it, but presidency-for-life is something different.

He removed the term limit altogether. If you think that has nothing to do with a reasonable suspicion of someone trying to be the president for the rest of his life, you must have drank a lot of CCP flavored Kool-aid

I got tired of it and I posted the quote from the bill five posts ago, I'm surprised you didn't notice. I'll quote it again for you:

to be found at page 22.

Exceptions are:

at page 6. For the full context,

On the same page. Finally, polls were also held to ascertain what people wanted. Giving a read to the Public Consultation section at page 11 would help too, considering that polls at hands the bill had the support of most of the public.

Maybe you aren't reading my responses here. I don't have greater context to how laws work in China (and I doubt you actually do as well), the snippets you provide don't inform me. It could very well be true that the exceptions list is pointless because anyone charged with an exception could potentially just get trumped up charges on something extraditable and sent mainland anyways at the request of the MSS. And given your staunch defense of totalitarian practices, I am not exactly confident you are going to pitch to me a non-totalitarian friendly interpretation to me anyways.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Beijing told Lam not to withdraw the bill, or to launch an inquiry into the tumult, including allegations of excessive police force, according to the senior government official.


Another of the three individuals, who has close ties with senior officials in Hong Kong and also declined to be identified, confirmed the Hong Kong government had submitted the report.
“They said no” to all five demands, said the source. “The situation is far more complicated than most people realize.”


The third individual, a senior Chinese official, said that the Hong Kong government had submitted the report to the Central Co-ordination Group for Hong Kong and Macau Affairs, a high-level group led by Politburo Standing Committee member Han Zheng, and that President Xi Jinping was aware of it.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN1VK0H6
.

So despite claims to the contrary, Beijing ensured from the beginning that the protests can only end in eradication; either by force or by fatigue and intimidation. The extradition bill was not only not “dead,” but in fact kept very much alive on direct orders from the Politburo; possibly from Red Emperor Xi himself.


With kids being rounded up and detained by police on “suspicion of unlawful assembly,” and protest organizers understandably frightened into compliance with the protest ban, can the people of Hong Kong possibly continue the fight against their communist overlords? America is imploding, Britain is a frail, aging shadow of its former self, the rest of the world couldn’t care less. These poor bastards are alone and at the mercy of a regime which casually exterminated 60-100 million of its own people, and counting. I shudder to ponder their fate. Truly heartbreaking.

[B. W.]

A little more insight into the money situation in Hong Kong, what's likely to happen, and whose is behind it:

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog...rotesters.html

If anyone doubts enormous sums of money haven't been eased out of China by way of Hong Kong they should go ask a natural born Canadian what it is like finding an affordable home in Vancouver.

So yeah, China is in a bind and they are trying to stop the financial bleeding. The smart ones have already gotten out.

[Love Mountain]

Or don't read it at all because American Thinker is a worthless conspiracy blog.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/american-thinker/

[B. W.]

Or don't read it at all because American Thinker is a worthless conspiracy blog.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/american-thinker/

HaHaHa! Your site lists the New York Times as a credible media source as well as other left wing media sources. It actually lists the Southern Poverty Law Center as a credible source. You can't go much further left than that.

The AT article was written by a former official with the US Secretary of Defense.

These days publications are either left-wing or right-wing. Unlike you, I read both just to get a proper perspective.

[The spartan]

These days publications are either left-wing or right-wing. Unlike you, I read both just to get a proper perspective.

What a toxic way of viewing the world: "No one is ever genuine or honest with how they represent things! Everyone is just a political partisan pushing an agenda!"

You are literally saying that an authority or fact checking source couldn't ever be honest unless they rate sources in a way that match up with your presumptions. In fact, if I were to speculate the exact order of events after you clicked that link it would be something like: "They say American Thinker is untrustworthy but I trust American Thinker! Wait, let me search for what they say about the NYT. As I thought, only lib cucks would think the NYT is even a little credible! That means they are lying about the American Thinker being untrustworthy!"

[Love Mountain]

HaHaHa! Your site lists the New York Times as a credible media source as well as other left wing media sources. It actually lists the Southern Poverty Law Center as a credible source. You can't go much further left than that.

The AT article was written by a former official with the US Secretary of Defense.

These days publications are either left-wing or right-wing. Unlike you, I read both just to get a proper perspective.

I learned that reality has a leftist bias today.

[B. W.]

What a toxic way of viewing the world: "No one is ever genuine or honest with how they represent things! Everyone is just a political partisan pushing an agenda!"

You are literally saying that an authority or fact checking source couldn't ever be honest unless they rate sources in a way that match up with your presumptions. In fact, if I were to speculate the exact order of events after you clicked that link it would be something like: "They say American Thinker is untrustworthy but I trust American Thinker! Wait, let me search for what they say about the NYT. As I thought, only lib cucks would think the NYT is even a little credible! That means they are lying about the American Thinker being untrustworthy!"

I learned that reality has a leftist bias today.

The NYT, having devoted an entire department to promoting the Russian hoax theme is exactly what fake news is all about. The Southern Poverty Law center, on the other hand is little more than a hate group.

I remember some years back when one of its chief directors was murdered by an illegal alien. The SPLC guy was one of the people who were proclaiming at the time that the illegals were "just here to do the jobs Americans won't do" and anybody who was against illegal immigration was a racist. He went out for a jog and decided he would go outside his protected San Francisco enclave to some nearby woods and was robbed and murdered.

I remember thinking at the time that he had received a fatal dose of the prescription he was trying to write for the rest of us. Anyway, here's the truth about the SPLC:

https://www.nationalreview.com/magaz...ially-a-fraud/

and for anyone interested here's yet another insight into the Hong Kong situation:

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog...n_horizon.html

[Love Mountain]

The NYT, having devoted an entire department to promoting the Russian hoax theme is exactly what fake news is all about. The Southern Poverty Law center, on the other hand is little more than a hate group.

Define "hate group" and how the SPLC fits that definition. I also have no idea what "Russian Hoax" you are talking about. The links between the Trump campaign and Russia is well documented.

I remember some years back when one of its chief directors was murdered by an illegal alien. The SPLC guy was one of the people who were proclaiming at the time that the illegals were "just here to do the jobs Americans won't do" and anybody who was against illegal immigration was a racist. He went out for a jog and decided he would go outside his protected San Francisco enclave to some nearby woods and was robbed and murdered.

I remember thinking at the time that he had received a fatal dose of the prescription he was trying to write for the rest of us. Anyway, here's the truth about the SPLC:

https://www.nationalreview.com/magaz...ially-a-fraud/

The event, if true, doesn't reflect badly on SPLC, quite the opposite actually. The national review article is a compilation of criticisms against the SPLC, none of which damn it as a hate group. Not in any way one can call "conclusive" even if being generous with that term. Considering the author of the article also writes about how "Dave Chappelle Downplays Trump Reelection Fears", I'm not surprised that the article is written rather haphazardly. Not exactly a peak intellectual.

and for anyone interested here's yet another insight into the Hong Kong situation:

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog...n_horizon.html

Again, don't. Not only is it completely "left field" while avoiding discussing the actual issues in Hong Kong, the author and the site itself, is full of garbage.



Here's a list of the recent articles the author has written, I suppose this is what B.W. terms "journalism".

[The spartan]

The NYT, having devoted an entire department to promoting the Russian hoax theme is exactly what fake news is all about. The Southern Poverty Law center, on the other hand is little more than a hate group.

For the love of god, don't derail the thread. If you are going to reject any authority that doesn't match your presumptions, just be honest about it so we can all move on.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Embattled Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor has formally withdrawn the much-despised extradition billthat sparked the nearly three-month long protest crisis now roiling the city, confirming the Post’s exclusive report earlier on Wednesday.
She will also set up an investigative platform to look into the fundamental causes of the social unrest and suggest solutions for the way forward, stopping short of turning it into a full-fledged commission of inquiry, as demanded by protesters.


The decision to withdraw the bill will mean that the government is finally acceding to at least one of the five demands of the protesters, who have taken to the streets over the past 13 weeks to voice not just their opposition to the legislation, but the overall governance of the city in demonstrations that have become increasingly violent.


https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...mal-withdrawal

This confirms earlier reports that Beijing is delivering the marching orders to Lam, and was forced to cave when the facts came to light and she threw her puppet masters under the bus. It remains to be seen whether the people of Hong Kong will be placated given key demands remain unmet, namely democratic reforms and justice for the protestors arrested and physically harmed by police.

[Ludicus]

From the news," President Trump, please liberate Hong-Kong!".
What's going on?




Should the first in a queue be served last? Guiado asked first, if I remember well.

[Lord Thesaurian]

HONG KONG (Reuters) - Hong Kong police fired tear gas and water cannon at petrol-bomb throwing protesters and shot a teenage demonstrator, as pro-democracy activists defied the city’s Chinese rulers on the 70th anniversary of the founding of the People’s Republic.


Cat-and-mouse clashes spread from the upmarket district of Causeway Bay to the Admiralty area that is home to government offices on Hong Kong island, with police vans chasing down pro-democracy protesters in the key drag of Hennessy Road.


Thousands of black-clad protesters, some wearing Guy Fawkes masks, marched on Admiralty, ignoring a police ban. Violence escalated across the harbor to Kowloon and beyond to the New Territories in the most widespread unrest in nearly four months.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-c...-idUSKBN1WF2EI

The people of Hong Kong (and Taiwan) continue the fight alone against communist tyranny, defying the Politburo’s manufactured display of strength and unity on the anniversary of the communist conquest of China. It’s inspiring to see that, despite all its wealth, power, and external bellicosity, the one thing Red China fears most is its own people. It’s tragic to think that if the West continues to put money over principles by tiptoeing around the Politburo, no amount of military might will save China’s neighbors from communist takeover. Hopefully the people of Hong Kong, who have long been educated and accustomed to democratic norms, will not be ground to dust by authoritarian force.

[Gaius Baltar]

The cycle of violence in Hong Kong continues.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/hong-k...testers-demand

Though I do see the rationale for protesting the attempted power grab, I dont see any overall strategy by the protesters.

[Heathen Hammer]

Or don't read it at all because American Thinker is a worthless conspiracy blog.

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/american-thinker/

Today we learned that reality is "worthless conspiracy".