Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

[Love Mountain]

No, it had to do with another black legend about China, that it has unfair trading practices. Flash news, competing with a modern industrial country with a manpower in the high hundreds of millions is a lost cause, even if the country plays fair. The US is just a sore loser.

Nobody, except Donald Trump and his loonies intended to enter into a trade war with China. So stop with the hyperbole. The issue isn't that America thinks China should be punished for playing unfairly. The issue is the current POTUS. Most US policy wonks would simply setup a trade bloc in SEA and Oceania to lock China's unfair practices out of it.

I suggest you look at US deployments in East Asia and Chinese deployments there.
China has been encircled for decades but when China modernizes its military (without even actually trying to expel the US from the area, that's an unsubstantiated claim) China is the imperial power?

Those bases are there with the implicit (or explicit) approval of the countries they are based in. We didn't build islands in the middle of the South China Sea in an attempt to threaten your trade routes. Which is precisely what China is doing, violating the spirit of UNCLOS. Neither I, nor the international community, have any issues with China's growing network of ports and military cooperative agreements with various countries around the globe. It's when China starts being obnoxious that there is a problem. Oh, and violations of human rights are another. Are all 1 million of those students US sponsored saboteurs, or do they all just deserve to be beat with a baton?

[Altzek]

Three fourths of the video show rioters throwing stones and molotovs against policemen and attempting to blind them with lasers (stuff that can erase your eyesight forever. This also counts as an attack on a public officer) and you focus on some dudes in an airport who were most likely responsible of the same kind of violence while occupying it and preventing regular flights from landing or taking off.
Ok.


Why they keep rioting except to attract drama and international media coverage is beyond me. Once again, the bill is dead, and they were allegedly protesting the bill. They have absolutely not the slightest excuse to keep doing what they're doing.

Nobody, except Donald Trump and his loonies intended to enter into a trade war with China. So stop with the hyperbole. The issue isn't that America thinks China should be punished for playing unfairly. The issue is the current POTUS. Most US policy wonks would simply setup a trade bloc in SEA and Oceania to lock China's unfair practices out of it.

Here we go again with the black legends and support for offensive moves against the country. I guess the only difference here is the modus operandi.

Those bases are there with the implicit (or explicit) approval of the countries they are based in. We didn't build islands in the middle of the South China Sea in an attempt to threaten your trade routes. Which is precisely what China is doing, violating the spirit of UNCLOS. Neither I, nor the international community, have any issues with China's growing network of ports and military cooperative agreements with various countries around the globe. It's when China starts being obnoxious that there is a problem. Oh, and violations of human rights are another. Are all 1 million of those students US sponsored saboteurs, or do they all just deserve to be beat with a baton?

Those bases were built by bombing those countries to death and installing puppet governments. You nuked Japan to install a military base on Okinawa that so far has attracted nothing but controversy, split Korea and bombed it back to the stone age leaving not one building standing in the north to have dozens of troops there, etc etc. Nobody wants your rapist soldiers there, treaties signed at gunpoint between you and puppet governments don't count as expressions of popular will.

China is "obnoxious" regardless. In response to the Hong Kongers, the place has eight millions of people and these are mostly youth. Are they saboteurs? Nope, not directly, but the evidence that the organizations that started the protests have ties to you is here, out in the open.
Giving the benefit of the doubt, the youth in the streets are clueless as to who's using them, and for what purpose, and the leadership traitorous.

[Love Mountain]

Here we go again with the black legends and support for offensive moves against the country. I guess the only difference here is the modus operandi.

Forcing China to respect IP rules is an offensive move against China because China doesn't respect IP.

Those bases were built by bombing those countries to death and installing puppet governments. You nuked Japan to install a military base on Okinawa that so far has attracted nothing but controversy, split Korea and bombed it back to the stone age leaving not one building standing in the north to have dozens of troops there, etc etc. Nobody wants your rapist soldiers there, treaties signed at gunpoint between you and puppet governments don't count as expressions of popular will.

You're under the impression we're keeping those bases there under the threat of a nuke. It couldn't be farther from the truth, if Japan or Korea wanted to get rid of those bases, they would've already done so. So yeah, it does count as popular will, as the democratic governments in South Korea and Japan, are embodiments of those countries' popular will.

China is "obnoxious" regardless. In response to the Hong Kongers, the place has eight millions of people and these are mostly youth. Are they saboteurs? Nope, not directly, but the evidence that the organizations that started the protests have ties to you is here, out in the open.
Giving the benefit of the doubt, the youth in the streets are clueless as to who's using them, and for what purpose, and the leadership traitorous.

The "grown-ups" are more than welcome to lead counter protests. Global Research is a conspiracy/propaganda site. If the youth in the street are "clueless", stop beating the out of them, and get the people who are "using them".

[Aexodus]

The protestors want more democracy in Hong Kong. A perfectly worthwhile cause especially considering in 20 years China will take away their autonomy.

[Altzek]

Forcing China to respect IP rules is an offensive move against China because China doesn't respect IP.

Unsubstantiated claim.

You're under the impression we're keeping those bases there under the threat of a nuke. It couldn't be farther from the truth, if Japan or Korea wanted to get rid of those bases, they would've already done so. So yeah, it does count as popular will, as the democratic governments in South Korea and Japan, are embodiments of those countries' popular will.

No country can get rid of US bases democratically. Italy didn't even want to be your ally but you funded the Christian Democrats for decades to make sure they won elections and kept the "alliance" with you. It's how the US operates, everywhere, it sabotages or ignores democracy.
This is what happens when people are asked to express themselves on the matter.

The "grown-ups" are more than welcome to lead counter protests. Global Research is a conspiracy/propaganda site. If the youth in the street are "clueless", stop beating the out of them, and get the people who are "using them".

The article leads to a better source that names names and facts, referring to the Occupy Central protests of five years ago. You only had to read.
The only people I see violent in principle here are the rioters, not the policemen who are responding proportionately. And I can already guess what happens when the leaders of the tiny parties behind these protests are put under detention, the newspapers would shriek "China arrests leaders of democratic opposition", and you would keep shrieking about human rights or whatever.
There is no way to win with some people.

And yeah, the elderly are frankly tired.

The protestors want more democracy in Hong Kong. A perfectly worthwhile cause especially considering in 20 years China will take away their autonomy.

Hong Kong is a liberal democracy, the government is elected and the bill has been scrapped following the protests. I don't know what more do they want, and how is any of this not democratic.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

I am interested what will happen, when Trump get his second presidentship, what's high likely, and US Antifa or minority youths will protest violently then against President Trump's racistic rhetoric and demand his step down.

I'm really sure, no "conservative" will shout then "Surpression of democracy", when police sticks struck the protestors down.

In todays case evil commie surpression of democracy, in future case brave defence of democravy

[caratacus]

Three fourths of the video show rioters throwing stones and molotovs against policemen and attempting to blind them with lasers (stuff that can erase your eyesight forever. This also counts as an attack on a public officer) and you focus on some dudes in an airport who were most likely responsible of the same kind of violence while occupying it and preventing regular flights from landing or taking off.
Ok.

I totally agree, using a laser pointer as a weapon should be an offence. However, it's not just the protestors. I believe the police were using them from tall buildings to identify prominent activists in the crowd to their colleagues on the ground and these beams were hitting eyes. Also the use of projectiles fired directly into a crowd of people strikes people indiscriminately, causes a great deal more damage, such as this girl who will probably loose an eye.

Hong Kong police shoot projectiles at close range in Tai Koo, as protester suffers ruptured eye in TST
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/08/1...tured-eye-tst/
A Hong Kong police officer was seen shooting pepper balls at close range against protesters on Sunday as they were leaving the scene via Tai Koo MTR station. The police also shot a protester with an apparent bean ban round in Tsim Sha Tsui, causing rupture of her right eye.

You saw the same thing going on in Paris recently. These aren't safe weapons and should only be used cautiously and responsibly, not by an officer trying to avenge a wounded colleague.

The protests at the airport I think were triggered by China stating that anyone participating in protests (peacefully or otherwise) should be dismissed from the airline Cathay Pacific This lack of freedom of speech is exactly what the protests are about and doing this is plain dumb. It serves to inflame feelings not calm them.

Cathay Pacific says it could fire staff who support Hong Kong protests
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/12/b...est/index.html

[Altzek]

I totally agree, using a laser pointer as a weapon should be an offence. However, it's not just the protestors. I believe the police were using them from tall buildings to identify prominent activists in the crowd to their colleagues on the ground and these beams were hitting eyes. Also the use of projectiles fired directly into a crowd of people strikes people indiscriminately, causes a great deal more damage, such as this girl who will probably loose an eye.

There's no mention anywhere of the police making use of lasers in your articles, only of a breach of discipline by one officer who mis-aimed a pepper-ball projectile.
Nothing that indicates a widespread use of disproportionate violence.

The protests at the airport I think were triggered by China stating that anyone participating in protests (peacefully or otherwise) should be dismissed from the airline Cathay Pacific This lack of freedom of speech is exactly what the protests are about and doing this is plain dumb. It serves to inflame feelings not calm them.

Read your article, it isn't the Chinese government that's dismissing people from the airline but it's the airline itself, which by the way is private. This isn't about freedom of speech because by occupying the terminal these people are obstructing the company's regular activity. For, I would like to emphasise it for the 100th time, NO REASON AT ALL.
I would fire them too.

[The spartan]

Hong Kong is a liberal democracy, the government is elected and the bill has been scrapped following the protests. I don't know what more do they want, and how is any of this not democratic.

How about not having the Communist party sign off on their executive branch, or to have their Legislative Council be more democratically representative. Do you think CCP is the reasonable one here? If I lived in Hong Kong, I would be terrified by that extradition bill and encroachment of Communist rule. We have seen what they have been doing elsewhere; if you like your freedoms, you have much to lose.

[caratacus]

There's no mention anywhere of the police making use of lasers in your articles, only of a breach of discipline by one officer who mis-aimed a pepper-ball projectile.
Nothing that indicates a widespread use of disproportionate violence.

Hong Kong Protesters Trolled Police With an All-Night Laser Party
After the police arrested a student protest leader for buying laser pointers, protesters hit the streets with hundreds of them.
https://www.vice.com/en_asia/article...ht-laser-party
"Laser pointers have been widely used by both protesters and police during the recent demonstrations, which began in opposition to a controversial extradition bill and have morphed into a broader movement against Beijing’s tightening grip on the city. Protesters have flashed them at police, in an apparent bid to confuse them and prevent their surveillance cameras from identifying individuals, while police have pointed them at protesters and journalists. The Hong Kong Journalists' Association has accused police of using the pointers to obstruct reporting of the protests."

Read your article, it isn't the Chinese government that's dismissing people from the airline but it's the airline itself, which by the way is private. This isn't about freedom of speech because by occupying the terminal these people are obstructing the company's regular activity. For, I would like to emphasise it for the 100th time, NO REASON AT ALL.
I would fire them too.

Cathay Pacific shares fall to decade low over protests in Hong Kong.
China's aviation authorities ordered airline to suspend staff that supported pro-democracy protests
https://news.sky.com/story/cathay-pa...-kong-11783735

I cannt understand anyone who feels that the authorities have handled this correctly, or someone who actually believes it is all being orchestrated by foreign interests.

[Altzek]

How about not having the Communist party sign off on their executive branch, or to have their Legislative Council be more democratically representative. Do you think CCP is the reasonable one here? If I lived in Hong Kong, I would be terrified by that extradition bill and encroachment of Communist rule. We have seen what they have been doing elsewhere; if you like your freedoms, you have much to lose.

The Legislative Council is the SAR's parliament, it's democratically elected like any Western parliament, and the communist party gives its approval to any chief executive, pro or against further integration with the mainland. Hong Kong had "pan-democracy" chief executives in the past and they also had the communist party's approval, this is but a formality. There is nothing undemocratic going on, this is a regular liberal democracy, wholly autonomous and not subject to almost any rule from the mainland.


Again, the bill is dead (strike one, no reason anymore to protest) and I suggest you to read it, because I don't think anyone here did (strike two, nobody has any idea of what they're protesting), its application wasn't meant to be universal and there were legal precedents like businessmen fleeing to Hong Kong or Taiwan to avoid prosecution in the mainland that required something like this to address the issue.
The bill is here, take your time to read it and for the love of God shut up until you're done doing so.

[The spartan]

The Legislative Council is the SAR's parliament, it's democratically elected like any Western parliament,

You mean besides those seats picked by the business sector that have more of a reason to be friendly with the CCP?

and the communist party gives its approval to any chief executive, pro or against further integration with the mainland. Hong Kong had "pan-democracy" chief executives in the past and they also had the communist party's approval, this is but a formality. There is nothing undemocratic going on, this is a regular liberal democracy, wholly autonomous and not subject to almost any rule from the mainland.

Does anyone actually believe this? The CCP has the legal power to veto the chief exec, but it's no big deal because don't worry, they won't? And let's not be obtuse on the influence from the mainland...

Again, the bill is dead (strike one, no reason anymore to protest) and I suggest you to read it, because I don't think anyone here did (strike two, nobody has any idea of what they're protesting), its application wasn't meant to be universal and there were legal precedents like businessmen fleeing to Hong Kong or Taiwan to avoid prosecution in the mainland that required something like this to address the issue.
The bill is here, take your time to read it

So your whole position is that this was all completely nothing, and the mass protests in Hong Kong and outrage from the International community was just for fun? Booksellers in Hong Kong didn't disappear and then reappear in CCP custody to "apologize"? And last time I checked, the bill is not truly "dead" but only suspended. That is, I haven't seen anything that stated the bill was withdrawn in the legislature.

and for the love of God shut up until you're done doing so.

Um, no? What actually is your point here: that the CCP is being friendly and accommodating to Hong Kong and citizens there shouldn't be worried? Again, if I lived in Hong Kong, the CCP would very much be something I was worried about.

[Altzek]

You mean besides those seats picked by the business sector that have more of a reason to be friendly with the CCP?

You're making it look like the business sector was a-okay with the law when in fact it had its own complaints.

Does anyone actually believe this? The CCP has the legal power to veto the chief exec, but it's no big deal because don't worry, they won't? And let's not be obtuse on the influence from the mainland...

Has it ever done so? In fact, can it even do that?
You're attributing to the communist party far more arbitrariety than it's capable of.

So your whole position is that this was all completely nothing, and the mass protests in Hong Kong and outrage from the International community was just for fun? Booksellers in Hong Kong didn't disappear and then reappear in CCP custody to "apologize"? And last time I checked, the bill is not truly "dead" but only suspended. That is, I haven't seen anything that stated the bill was withdrawn in the legislature.

Following the suspension of the bill, my whole position is that it's been a waste of time, only a way to attract drama and international attention for only God knows what. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep chimping around at this moment.

I cannt understand anyone who feels that the authorities have handled this correctly, or someone who actually believes it is all being orchestrated by foreign interests.

You're quoting from different articles than the ones you used earlier. In the former it's stated that the police has also used lasers without any evidence and ignoring the fact that, plainly, the rioters were the ones who used them first to blind cameras and policemen, and in the latter you're essentially ignoring the fact that the occupation of the terminal amounts to an economic sabotage. The city's economy and by consequence the wellbeing of the locals isn't helped by keeping air traffic suspended and making the city lose the equivalent of dozens of billions of dollars every week, and honestly whether the government would've told me or not, I would've fired any employee who would've occupied the terminal regardless, for the damage it would've caused to the company. This behavior isn't acceptable in the slightest.

[caratacus]

In the latter you're essentially ignoring the fact that the occupation of the terminal amounts to an economic sabotage. The city's economy and by consequence the wellbeing of the locals isn't helped by keeping air traffic suspended and making the city lose the equivalent of dozens of billions of dollars every week, and honestly whether the government would've told me or not, I would've fired any employee who would've occupied the terminal regardless, for the damage it would've caused to the company. This behavior isn't acceptable in the slightest.

I don't know, but I'm guessing they took the demonstration to the airport today because it is more difficult to deploy the type of police action shown on Sunday inside terminal buildings. It also enables those outside Hong Kong to be aware of the scale of the crisis. In Western countries there has been full media coverage, but in China it is hardly covered at all in the news.

Hong Kong' searches surge behind China's Great Firewall
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN1TF08D
BEIJING (Reuters) - Chinese censors are working hard to erase or block news of the Hong Kong protests on social media and search platforms amid a surge in interest from mainland internet users.

[Aexodus]

Are you from China Altzek? I can’t think why else you would take the position you have.

[Altzek]

I don't know, but I'm guessing they took the demonstration to the airport today because it is more difficult to deploy the type of police action shown on Sunday inside terminal buildings. It also enables those outside Hong Kong to be aware of the scale of the crisis. In Western countries there has been full media coverage, but in China it is hardly covered at all in the news.

I have friends from the mainland who use VPNs like nothing to communicate on YT, FB without risking anything at all and everyone and his mother knows about the sit in Hong Kong, and everyone and his mother hopes the rioters receive the lesson they deserve. Hong Kongers legitimately hate mainlanders, they call them "locusts", and mainlanders answer in kind by deriding the Hong Kongers as Brit-wannabes and race traitors. There is a deep anti-Chinese hatred behind at least a portion of the "pro-democracy" movement, the part that either wants Hong Kong to become a city-state like Singapore or wants to see it returned to Britain... to the days where not even 55% of the parliament was directly elected because there were no elections in the first place.

There is no reason whatsoever for the Hong Kongers to demand sympathy from the mainlanders of all people, and the idea that they would occupy an airport terminal to get sympathy from them is frankly ridiculous.

Are you from China Altzek? I can’t think why else you would take the position you have.

Italian, but I have Chinese friends and I also read a lot about China in general. If you think I'm Chinese because I don't repeat the China-watcher stuff...

I'm perfectly aware of the unpopularity of my stance. I'm the one who had to single-handedly engage like four people in this thread after all.

[Gaidin]

I suggest you look at US deployments in East Asia and Chinese deployments there. Map

China has been encircled for decades but when China modernizes its military (without even actually trying to expel the US from the area, that's an unsubstantiated claim) China is the imperial power?

That's East Asia alone, by the way, we aren't even counting Central Asia with the US's deployments.

Look, I really don't care how much the US is encircling China. With how much espionage China is pulling it's fair. And how little China or America can pull on either's aircraft carriers without declaring total war, I'm not sure what you're worried about.

Or are you not aware of just how much it takes to pinpoint and take down an aircraft carrier? There's actually a find-pinpoint-and-takedown algorithm for this crap. Nevermind the counter.

[caratacus]

I have friends from the mainland who use VPNs like nothing to communicate on YT, FB without risking anything at all and everyone and his mother knows about the sit in Hong Kong, and everyone and his mother hopes the rioters receive the lesson they deserve. Hong Kongers legitimately hate mainlanders, they call them "locusts", and mainlanders answer in kind by deriding the Hong Kongers as Brit-wannabes and race traitors. There is a deep anti-Chinese hatred behind at least a portion of the "pro-democracy" movement, the part that either wants Hong Kong to become a city-state like Singapore or wants to see it returned to Britain... to the days where not even 55% of the parliament was directly elected because there were no elections in the first place.

There is a significant difference between Hong Kongers and mainland Chinese that is for sure. But this difference stems from the Communist legacy of China which continues today. That same difference isn't apparent if you compare Hong Kong with Taiwan, Singapore or even Seoul. As for the animosity, you should remember that many in Hong Kong have family who fled China. These people are Chinese, and being Chinese isn't directly related to supporting the CRP, so they can hardly be what you term "race traitors". a term which itself is rooted in hatred of those with different opinions. It's an anachronism, that a Communist modelled government which administers an extreme form of capitalism, can use nationalism as a way to galvanise support amongst certain sections of the populace.

[Common Soldier]

No, it had to do with another black legend about China, that it has unfair trading practices. Flash news, competing with a modern industrial country with a manpower in the high hundreds of millions is a lost cause, even if the country plays fair. The US is just a sore loser.



I suggest you look at US deployments in East Asia and Chinese deployments there.

China has been encircled for decades but when China modernizes its military (without even actually trying to expel the US from the area, that's an unsubstantiated claim) China is the imperial power?

That's East Asia alone, by the way, we are youn't even counting Central Asia with the US's deployments.




I'm sure the Cold War was also due to the USSR's "own actions" in Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Good grief how'd they dare not allow the West to encircle them?
And when Russia actually did give up on fending off encirclement... it got encircled.
We're just blaming the victim here.

The South China Sea is a region disputed by half a dozen powers between Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, the Taipei government (which by the way claims sovereignty over just about everything China is claiming, AND Mongolia) and finally the mainland. But for some reason only the mainland gets the first page. Guess being better at asserting your claims is a fault.




That's blatantly false, the entire "pro-China camp" in Hong Kong is made of people who fought for the right to return to China as far back to the '60s. There was even a Red Guard movement in Hong Kong back then, much of which constituted the core of the trade union movement in the region.




Nothing in the joint agreement states that China wouldn't pursue suspects to Hong Kong and demand extradition.





Again, no.





The bill has been submitted by the legislature of Hong Kong, not by the mainland, and have you even read it? It doesn't even apply to all cases, for example those guilty of felonies whose punishment is imprisonment for less than seven years are exempt. It wasn't even meant to be universal.
And no, the bill is really dead.




One country two systems means the mainland is directly ruled by the Communist Party as a socialist(ish) country and Hong Kong is ruled as a capitalist liberal democracy with its own legislation and autonomy, much like Macau and, arguably, Taiwan. This is still standing, they didn't touch anything about this.
But at no point was it ever stated that people who committed crimes in the mainland who fled to Hong Kong wouldn't be sent back to the mainland, and this is what the bill is essentially about. Being in the same country doesn't mean that a local government has the right to refuse the central government's request to put on trial someone, that'd be like being in two different countries, which Hong Kong and the mainland are not.

Also worth mentioning is that Hong Kong wasn't even a liberal democracy before the handover. There were no direct elections whatsoever under the British, while instead every chief from 1997 until now, including the current one, has been legitimized by popular vote. China has brought democracy (at least the one that should be palatable to Western tastes) to Hong Kong.

Some of the quotes you have me listed as saying I did not say, so not sure where you got them from, it was not me.

In regard to the agreement, it was implicit in the 2 system setup China agreed to that orople if Hong Kong would not be extradited back to the mainland. If the Chinese bill applied only those who flerhe mainland to avoid punishment, that is one thing, but that does not seem to be the case. Does the bill apply only to those who were not Hong Kong citizens and just fled the mainland to avoid punishment?

PS - While there were no doubt some.in Hong Kong who wanted to join mainland China, many did not, and it was pressure from China, not demands from the citizens of Hong Kong, which persuaded Britain to turn over Hong Kong to China. It so.ply isn't true that everyone or even the majority of people in Hong Kong demanded to be part of mainland China, it that were the case the 2 system agreement would not have been needed in the first place.

[The spartan]

You're making it look like the business sector was a-okay with the law when in fact it had its own complaints.

I was more alluding to the lack of Democratic representation in general. The Pro-Democracy parties consistently win the popular vote but Pro-China party members keep getting majority of the seats.

Has it ever done so? In fact, can it even do that?

You mean since 1997? Forgive the skepticism that the CCP will honor democratic norms. From what I understand, the CCP does sign off on the chief executive, implying that they could "not sign off" if they so wished.

You're attributing to the communist party far more arbitrariety than it's capable of.

You know we are talking about one the most totalitarian regimes in the world, right? Especially in terms of big nations. Good luck speaking out against the CCP any place they have police control.

Following the suspension of the bill, my whole position is that it's been a waste of time, only a way to attract drama and international attention for only God knows what. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep chimping around at this moment.

But we don't even know if the bill was withdrawn from the legislature, Lam won't say. And what do you mean "for only God knows what"? Again, Hong Kong is a democracy with a totalitarian government breathing down their neck. I am sure they have heard what is going on in Xinjiang and Tibet. If you were a Hongkonger who spoken out against the CCP, and they gain the ability to extradite you to the mainland, your life could very well be in danger.