Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

[caratacus]

The white-T shirt triad thugs may have been using violence because they saw the protestors as a threat to their own interests or paid to cause a reaction. If it was the latter, it certainly worked because last Sunday's violent demonstrations were the worst yet. The other result was to diminish the standing of the Hong Kong police still further amongst the population. The force seems demoralized and unable to cope with these protests and has now instead become the primary focus of the demonstrators anger.

I honesty cannot see this ending until Carrie Lam makes the responsible decision to step down, and China makes some rapprochement to calm down feelings, rather than show the heavy hand. Today's headlines don't hold at much hope.

China says Hong Kong ‘will pay’ if protests continue in rare public statement
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...e-rare-public/
China’s central government warned in an extremely rare public statement on Monday that all of Hong Kong “will pay” if millions continue to protest, while reiterating Beijing’s support for the city’s leaders in handling the chaos.

“The central government firmly supports chief executive Carrie Lam and her office to administrate in accordance with the law, and the Hong Kong police to justly execute the law,” said Yang Guang, a spokesperson with the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office, which reports directly to China’s cabinet.
“If the turbulence continues, the whole of Hong Kong society will pay the cost.”

[Cohors_Evocata]

Appears a military crackdown may be on the horizon, the commander of the local PLA garrison has seemingly spoken out for the first time.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...-ready-protect

What do you think? Intimidation tactics? Preparation for another Tiananmen? Signs of Beijing getting nervous? Hong Kong's Basic Law apparently formally requires the PLA garrison to adhere to the orders of the local government of the SAR, unless Beijing decides to declare a state of emergency and hence curtail the city's autonomy. Military intervention would probably cause international outcry, but then again, the US president doesn't seem to mind all that much at least: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhEU...ature=youtu.be (from 3:45 onwards). Not that he could do that much of course, except perhaps add more tariffs. But it will be a disappointment to protesters like these guys (https://twitter.com/tictoc/status/1155579963757797376) and giving China a free hand will likely consign the protests to death IMO.

[Aexodus]

Tragically I would be appalled but not surprised if we see a Tiananmen square 2.0 situation.

[Love Mountain]

Tragically I would be appalled but not surprised if we see a Tiananmen square 2.0 situation.

The modern politburo seems to realize the importance of public image. That said, I would not be surprised if a similar up happens because a few officers decided to take matters into their own hands. I think a deeper issue with modern China is that the Politburo seems to be aware that they can do horrible things as long as it's subtle and plausibly deniable.

[Lord Thesaurian]

The modern politburo seems to realize the importance of public image. That said, I would not be surprised if a similar up happens because a few officers decided to take matters into their own hands. I think a deeper issue with modern China is that the Politburo seems to be aware that they can do horrible things as long as it's subtle and plausibly deniable.

More than that, I’d argue the Politburo learned long ago that the “best” way to defeat the capitalists isn’t to out compete them like the Soviets tried to do. Rather, they expertly leveraged their ocean of slave labor to exchange for the capital, skills and information they could not cultivate domestically, ingratiating themselves into the global economy, and empowering the Politburo’s regime in the process. The monied interests of the world have no interest or intention of alienating the world’s largest developing/developed market, and voters in traditional leading nations of the world are focused on other issues.


We’ve already seen what will happen to Hong Kong. The Politburo administered the massacre of tens of millions of their own people in the 20th century, and more recently, put millions more in prison camps. The world did nothing. The situation in Hong Kong will continue to deteriorate until the local PLA garrison finally “restores order” like they did in Tiananmen. Then, as now, the world issued a few words of condemnation, and moved on. The only wild card is whether Hong Kong’s importance to the global financial system will prove a differentiating factor.

[Altzek]

I would at the very least mobilize the PLA garrison there to silence those kids once and for all.
It's unbearable to see the people of Hong Kong fighting for decades to return to China, only to see their spoiled children wave British flags in return, and over what?


A bill that would be normal everywhere, if you commit a crime in Italy you're bound to be put on trial in Italy. If you commit a crime in China, why shouldn't you be put on trial in China? Where else could you reasonably be put on trial? Detroit?


That the protests continue even now that the bill has been suspended just shows that the kids are being unreasonable and that they need a lesson.

[caratacus]

The modern politburo seems to realize the importance of public image. That said, I would not be surprised if a similar up happens because a few officers decided to take matters into their own hands. I think a deeper issue with modern China is that the Politburo seems to be aware that they can do horrible things as long as it's subtle and plausibly deniable.

The "Modern Politburo" doesn't give a fig for public opinion anymore than any other ruling elite. The top rung is comprised of people who have made a ton of money through investments and business and don't want to upset the apple cart. Thing is people are increasing questioning and challenging those who rule above them and whether there is a common interest. `Hong Kong, Moscow, Paris there is a common thread of wealth being seen to dominate political rule exclusively. China though is a product of Western investment over the last 30 years. It bolstered a stagnant failed economy and reinvigorated an authoritarian regime that would think nothing of running over student demonstrators with tanks.

The kick start of this investment of course all started in Hong Kong and spread into mainland China rapidly when the UK struck a deal with China at the end of the lease period. Hong Kong wasn't kept separate under “One Country Two Systems" to cushion the people of Hong Kong from change that would harm their interest, but to prevent disruption in mainland China and stop capital flight.

For this reason the Chinese government has probably more to fear from the spread of influential ideas when Hong Kong ceases to be a separate entity than those living in Hong Kong. For that reason they will continue to exert greater influence on its administration until that time, in an attempt to nullify what they see as disruptive ideas that challenge authority. It is a policy that has now hit the buffers though and been thwarted by these mass protests, which have destabilised the province and risk not only spreading into mainland China but destabilising the whole of the Chinese economy. Any attempt to send in the troops would be disastrous, which is why it hasn't happened. It is all about money, not public opinion.

Even without direct intervention though, the protests have become increasing violent and it is becoming a complete mess. Yesterdays scenes were shocking anywhere, let alone one of the most law abiding cites in the world. Threatening rhetoric from the Chinese authorities apparently aimed at all protesters in Hong Kong will not work and show the mindset far removed from rule by consensus. China needs instead, to get Lam to resign, reach out directly to protest leaders and isolate those who advocate violence and civil unrest to reestablish order, but this isn’t China’s way. The use of baton, tear gas and guns alone will not solve the problem and will only serve to deepen divisions further.

China warns Hong Kong protesters not to 'play with fire'
(Actually said "those who play with fire will perish by it")
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-49246304
What did China say, and why is it significant?
The "radical demonstrations" have pushed Hong Kong "to the verge of a very dangerous situation", said Yang Guang, a spokesman for the Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office (HKMAO). He warned the protesters not to "mistake restraint for weakness".

Attempts to force Ms Lam to resign "will lead nowhere", he said, adding that the protests had had a "serious impact" on Hong Kong's economy.

It is one of the strongest warnings Beijing has issued over the protests so far. The HKMAO rarely holds news conferences on Hong Kong - but this is its second briefing in two weeks.

[Basil II the B.S]

https://twitter.com/zlj517/status/11...er-viral-photo

US diplomat caught meeting with the leaders of one of the protester organization. Daily reminder this is from the country where a certain side whines about ''foreign interference'' because it lost an election.

For all intent and purpose, this is treason, conspiracy with a foreign power to destabilize the country. The kids are dead.

[Lord Thesaurian]

https://twitter.com/zlj517/status/11...er-viral-photo

US diplomat caught meeting with the leaders of one of the protester organization. Daily reminder this is from the country where a certain side whines about ''foreign interference'' because it lost an election.

For all intent and purpose, this is treason, conspiracy with a foreign power to destabilize the country. The kids are dead.

The Politburo has been and will continue to claim any resistance to its regime is part of a vast foreign conspiracy, in order to discredit ideologically “undesirable” narratives and bury dissent. Are you saying this development is some kind of watershed moment?

[Basil II the B.S]

The Politburo has been and will continue to claim any resistance to its regime is part of a vast foreign conspiracy, in order to discredit ideologically “undesirable” narratives and bury dissent. Are you saying this development is some kind of watershed moment?

Followed by a strawman.

I'll expand. If you want to make any kind of civil or political rights in a rather authoritarian country, the last thing you want to do is to meet up with officials of a foreign power that has launched a trade war against your very same country. Because however legitimate is one's protest, the moment you get caught talking to hostile foreigners, then you are done. So, if the photo is true, then the kids are going to be in massive trouble.

[hellheaven1987]

So, if the photo is true, then the kids are going to be in massive trouble.

Does it matter? The people of world only view China as a cash cow anyway.

[Basil II the B.S]

That's more or less why China can make the kids vanish and noone will care. I had a brief chat with some ''expert'' of a famous international organization about it, he told me ''China's world reputation is at stake''. I laughed at it. The same country that was welcomed in the WTO after Tienanmen square?

The liberal elite likes money a lot more than they like their own values, all of which are interchangeable.

[Altzek]

I don't know where are you people getting the idea that the "liberal elite" doesn't care about Hong Kong, mainstream news outlets bombard daily about the "evil communists" "beating up innocent protesters" or whatever, even as the "innocent protesters" are tearing apart the city and keep chimping out even after the law has been scrapped.

Every excuse is fine to incite hatred against China, the West has been at it for more than a century with the Yellow Peril thing, every half a decade making up one lie after another. What more do you people want?

[Basil II the B.S]

Looks like we need to ally with China against the liberals then

[Love Mountain]

I don't know where are you people getting the idea that the "liberal elite" doesn't care about Hong Kong, mainstream outlets bombard daily about the "evil communists" "beating up innocent protesters" or whatever, even as the "innocent protesters" are tearing apart the city and keep chimping out even after the law has been scrapped.

Every excuse is good to create hatred against the Chinese government, what more do you people want?

Action instead of empty platitudes. I'm starting to believe that even a brutal repression of Hong Kong will have zero economic consequences.

[Altzek]

Action instead of empty platitudes. I'm starting to believe that even a brutal repression of Hong Kong will have zero economic consequences.

Your action would be based on lies, and anyway there is something going on already, it's called "trade war", and progressive boycott of Chinese students in Western colleges. More on the way.
China has become a boogeyman and Western institutions are already acting on this image, at all levels and in every way.


To the Western media, China is in the process of taking the role that the USSR covered in the 20th century, and political and economic polarization is being formed as we speak. You're getting your cold conflict against China based on absolute lies, falsehoods and envy for its accomplishments already, what more do you want?

[Love Mountain]

Your action would be based on lies, and anyway there is something going on already, it's called "trade war", and progressive boycott of Chinese students in Western colleges. More on the way.

The current trade war has nothing to do with Hong Kong.

China has become a boogeyman and Western institutions are already acting on this image, at all levels and in every way.

Apologism, for what is clearly an aggressive and expansionist Chinese policy. China is a revisionist power that seeks to kick USA out of Asia, despite the fact that we've been the dominant power there for far longer.

To the Western media, China is in the process of taking the role that the USSR covered in the 20th century, and political and economic polarization is being formed as we speak. You're getting your cold conflict against China based on absolute lies, falsehoods and envy for its accomplishments already, what more do you want?

Not really. There are similarities between how we talked about USSR and China, but that's due to China's own actions. Had China not been so aggressive in the South China Sea, coverage of the Belt and Road project would've likely been much more positive and viewed with less suspicion.

[Common Soldier]

I would at the very least mobilize the PLA garrison there to silence those kids once and for all.
It's unbearable to see the people of Hong Kong fighting for decades to return to China, only to see their spoiled children wave British flags in return, and over what?

The people of Hong Kong did not demand to return to mainland China, it was mainland China that demanded Britain turn over Hong Kong to China, and Britain caved in to China's demand.

However, part of the agreement in Britain turning Hong Kong over was that Hong Kong citzens would not be extradited to the mainland. China now wants to renege on that agreement.

A bill that would be normal everywhere, if you commit a crime in Italy you're bound to be put on trial in Italy. If you commit a crime in China, why shouldn't you be put on trial in China? Where else could you reasonably be put on trial? Detroit?

Because China agreed to when Britain turned over Hong Kong to China that it wouldn't extradite the citizens of Hong Kong to the mainland, that is why.

That the protests continue even now that the bill has been suspended just shows that the kids are being unreasonable and that they need a lesson.

The protest continue to really drive home the point so that China won't try to resubmit the bill a little while later. The bill has merely been suspended , not scrapped. China has not come and said it is scrapping the bill, and will not try to re-introduce the the bill later, after the protest have died down.

As part of Britain agreeing to turn over Hong Kong to China, Chin agreed to a one country, 2 system policy which would remain in affect for 50 years, 2047. You may not have noticed it, but is not yet 2047..

[Altzek]

The current trade war has nothing to do with Hong Kong.

No, it had to do with another black legend about China, that it has unfair trading practices. Flash news, competing with a modern industrial country with a manpower in the high hundreds of millions is a lost cause, even if the country plays fair. The US is just a sore loser.

Apologism, for what is clearly an aggressive and expansionist Chinese policy. China is a revisionist power that seeks to kick USA out of Asia, despite the fact that we've been the dominant power there for far longer.

I suggest you look at US deployments in East Asia and Chinese deployments there.

China has been encircled for decades but when China modernizes its military (without even actually trying to expel the US from the area, that's an unsubstantiated claim) China is the imperial power?

That's East Asia alone, by the way, we aren't even counting Central Asia with the US's deployments.

Not really. There are similarities between how we talked about USSR and China, but that's due to China's own actions. Had China not been so aggressive in the South China Sea, coverage of the Belt and Road project would've likely been much more positive and viewed with less suspicion.

I'm sure the Cold War was also due to the USSR's "own actions" in Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Good grief how'd they dare not allow the West to encircle them?
And when Russia actually did give up on fending off encirclement... it got encircled.
We're just blaming the victim here.

The South China Sea is a region disputed by half a dozen powers between Vietnam, the Philippines, Malaysia, the Taipei government (which by the way claims sovereignty over just about everything China is claiming, AND Mongolia) and finally the mainland. But for some reason only the mainland gets the first page. Guess being better at asserting your claims is a fault.

The people of Hong Kong did not demand to return to mainland China, it was mainland China that demanded Britain turn over Hong Kong to China, and Britain caved in to China's demand.

That's blatantly false, the entire "pro-China camp" in Hong Kong is made of people who fought for the right to return to China as far back to the '60s. There was even a Red Guard movement in Hong Kong back then, much of which constituted the core of the trade union movement in the region.

However, part of the agreement in Britain turning Hong Kong over was that Hong Kong citzens would not be extradited to the mainland. China now wants to renege on that agreement.

Nothing in the joint agreement states that China wouldn't pursue suspects to Hong Kong and demand extradition.

Because China agreed to when Britain turned over Hong Kong to China that it wouldn't extradite the citizens of Hong Kong to the mainland, that is why.

Again, no.

The protest continue to really drive home the point so that China won't try to resubmit the bill a little while later. The bill has merely been suspended , not scrapped. China has not come and said it is scrapping the bill, and will not try to re-introduce the the bill later, after the protest have died down.

The bill has been submitted by the legislature of Hong Kong, not by the mainland, and have you even read it? It doesn't even apply to all cases, for example those guilty of felonies whose punishment is imprisonment for less than seven years are exempt. It wasn't even meant to be universal.
And no, the bill is really dead.

As part of Britain agreeing to turn over Hong Kong to China, Chin agreed to a one country, 2 system policy which would remain in affect for 50 years, 2047. You may not have noticed it, but is not yet 2047..

One country two systems means the mainland is directly ruled by the Communist Party as a socialist(ish) country and Hong Kong is ruled as a capitalist liberal democracy with its own legislation and autonomy, much like Macau and, arguably, Taiwan. This is still standing, they didn't touch anything about this.
But at no point was it ever stated that people who committed crimes in the mainland who fled to Hong Kong wouldn't be sent back to the mainland, and this is what the bill is essentially about. Being in the same country doesn't mean that a local government has the right to refuse the central government's request to put on trial someone, that'd be like being in two different countries, which Hong Kong and the mainland are not.

Also worth mentioning is that Hong Kong wasn't even a liberal democracy before the handover. There were no direct elections whatsoever under the British, while instead every chief from 1997 until now, including the current one, has been legitimized by popular vote. China has brought democracy (at least the one that should be palatable to Western tastes) to Hong Kong.

[caratacus]

There has been a serious escalation of the protests in Hong Kong, with the closure of the airport today. This and the extreme violence yesterday, show that the authorities have completely lost it! One of the most peaceful and prosperous cities in Asia has turned into a battle ground

Hong Kong airport shuts down as protesters occupy terminal
https://www.politico.eu/article/hong...cupy-terminal/
The cancellation of hundreds of flights marks a serious escalation of the protests, now in their ninth week.

All remaining flights out of Hong Kong airport were canceled today as thousands of protesters continued to occupy the main terminal. The cancellation of hundreds of flights marks a serious escalation of the protests, now in their ninth week.

The occupation of the airport began over the weekend as a response to violent clashes between the protesters and riot police in the city's subway stations, where videos show the police shooting projectiles at demonstrators from point-blank range.

Truncheons should be used to subdue offenders resisting arrest violently, not to thrash them huddled together in fear.