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Thread: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

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    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    HONG KONG (Reuters) - Several hundred thousand people jammed Hong Kong’s streets on Sunday in the biggest rally for years to thwart a proposed extradition law that would allow suspects to be sent to mainland China to face trial.

    Organisers said their initial estimates put the turnout at well over half a million people, saying it outstripped a demonstration in 2003 when 500,000 hit the streets to challenge government plans for tighter national security laws.

    Those laws were later shelved and a key government official forced to resign. Sunday’s outpouring was widely expected to raise the pressure on the administration of Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam and her official backers in Beijing.

    Lam had yet to comment on the rally, which followed weeks of domestic discontent growing official concern from the U.S., European Union and foreign business lobbies that the changes would dent Hong Kong’s vaunted rule of law and freedoms. The former British colony was handed back to Chinese rule in 1997 amid guarantees of autonomy and various freedoms including a separate legal system, which many diplomats and business leaders believe is the city’s strongest remaining asset.

    The unusually broad opposition to the rendition bill displayed on Sunday came amid a series of government moves to deepen links between southern mainland China and Hong Kong.
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ho...-idUKKCN1TA05T

    Live: https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...owdown-against

    It's good to see Hongkongers protesting again - for a while it appeared that they were ready to keel over and accept Beijing's dominance. It's probably unlikely that this protest will change anything in the long run - perhaps this extradition bill will be shelved like the national security laws - but if this continues one side will surely have to relent. Considering Xi Jinping's increased ambition and authoritarianism I am not sure Beijing will keep letting this 'insolence' slide. What are your thoughts? Is this a significant moment or will things continue as they have been? Will Beijing take more drastic measures?
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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Considering Xi Jinping's increased ambition and authoritarianism I am not sure Beijing will keep letting this 'insolence' slide.
    The "insolence" Beijing cannot tolerate is ten of thousands Chinese upper class using Hong Kong as stage place to transfer their asset - gain by corruption or not, to oversea without Beijing's approve. The funny thing is Xi and his buddies probably use same system to transfer asset to oversea too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Will Beijing take more drastic measures?
    Probably not, otherwise international community may decide to proclaim the death of Hong Kong by recognize it as just another city of China and removing its special privileges grant by the world, which Beijing is well known to use it as a loophole/dirty tricks to fulfill their goal underground.
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Unfortunately these demonstrations probably won’t change much. The Party knows better than the people I suppose.
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    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    The "insolence" Beijing cannot tolerate is ten of thousands Chinese upper class using Hong Kong as stage place to transfer their asset - gain by corruption or not, to oversea without Beijing's approve. The funny thing is Xi and his buddies probably use same system to transfer asset to oversea too.
    I wondered why Hong Kong retains a considerable degree of autonomy from mainland China. Capital movements outside China are tightly controlled, so I can see the advantages of using Hong Kong as a portal.

    When lawyers start taking to the streets en mass, you wonder how the authorities will respond to what is turning into a major political dispute.
    Hong Kong lawyers hold silent march in protest against extradition Bill
    https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/ea...radition-plans
    Almost 3,000 lawyers, all dressed in black, gathered at the Court of Final Appeal for their silent protest - the fifth and biggest of its kind by the city's legal community since Hong Kong was handed back to China by Britain in 1997.
    At the government headquarters in Admiralty, Mr Dennis Kwok, the lawmaker representing the legal sector, urged the government to withdraw the Bill immediately.

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    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    I sort of wonder how this and previous confrontations between Hong-Kong and the Chinese government have been allowed to go on essentially unaddressed by Britain, despite the Sino-British joint declaration, being a legally binding treaty, recognized by the UN that supposedly secures Hong Kong's way of life and laws (as it stood prior to the hand over) until at least 2047 (A period of 50 years from hand-over). (https://www.cmab.gov.hk/en/issues/jd2.htm)

    In 2014 apparently since the 'Umbrella revolution' British FO officials have recognized China has been ignoring the stipulations of this, and yet no action has been taken. I get the power imbalance, but it is not even like Britain has attempted to even threaten its economic cooperation with China (In China, its participation in their development bank, and in Britain domestically Hinkley Point and HS2 etc).

    Essentially in this context, i indeed don't really see Hong Kong being able to stand up for its rights against the Chinese state in the long-term, when not even their supposed guarantor gives a damn.
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Dante Von Hespburg View Post
    I sort of wonder how this and previous confrontations between Hong-Kong and the Chinese government have been allowed to go on essentially unaddressed by Britain, despite the Sino-British joint declaration, being a legally binding treaty, recognized by the UN that supposedly secures Hong Kong's way of life and laws (as it stood prior to the hand over) until at least 2047 (A period of 50 years from hand-over). (https://www.cmab.gov.hk/en/issues/jd2.htm)

    In 2014 apparently since the 'Umbrella revolution' British FO officials have recognized China has been ignoring the stipulations of this, and yet no action has been taken. I get the power imbalance, but it is not even like Britain has attempted to even threaten its economic cooperation with China (In China, its participation in their development bank, and in Britain domestically Hinkley Point and HS2 etc).

    Essentially in this context, i indeed don't really see Hong Kong being able to stand up for its rights against the Chinese state in the long-term, when not even their supposed guarantor gives a damn.
    It's the same as Africa, if we get involved everyone will scream "Imperialism, colonialism!"

    And what can we do against China exactly? Go to the UN, they are on the security council. We got rid of our empire, left our "oppressed colonies" alone and folk are still not happy.

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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    It's the same as Africa, if we get involved everyone will scream "Imperialism, colonialism!"

    And what can we do against China exactly? Go to the UN, they are on the security council. We got rid of our empire, left our "oppressed colonies" alone and folk are still not happy.
    The UK left a **** sandwich for the reds in Hong Kong. In the last five minutes they were there they discovered that the wanted to leave a democratic legacy after a century and a half of completely undemocratic Imperial rule. IIRC there was a five minute period in 1946 when the reds were looming when the idea of a bit of Hong Kong democracy surfaced, only to sink from view when the US sent two fleets to the region to prevent Chinese expansion in Korea 9and incidentally keeping the last warlord in power in Taiwan).

    Be lovely for everywhere in the world to have fair government. Be nice if Hong Kong did have a long established tradition of representative government, but they never have. Hong Kong is a bit of land stolen by the Poms, who deliberately spoiled it just prior to the handover by promising people things the Reds would not let them keep. Great work Thatcher you POS.
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    Dante Von Hespburg's Avatar Sloth's Inferno
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    It's the same as Africa, if we get involved everyone will scream "Imperialism, colonialism!"

    And what can we do against China exactly? Go to the UN, they are on the security council. We got rid of our empire, left our "oppressed colonies" alone and folk are still not happy.
    Indeed, China's influence in Africa (And indeed with the Belt and Road) has been very interesting to watch, as has the complete lack of US response, and the EU and Britain going 'insular' for now.

    In terms of actions against China, the UK does...well did, have a lot of scope for action- be that working closer with EU partners in the so-called 'trade war' (instead of say Britain vetoing and not following through with EU tariffs on Chinese steel), or indeed Britain withdrawing elements of cooperation from China, currently we're far more 'involved' arguably than the US and other EU states, particularly in trade delegations and the active attempt by the Cameron government to foster 'closer ties' (at the expense of the Hong Kong relationship), even not giving domestic construction contracts to Chinese 'state-affiliated' companies, which is most of them, would have been a token gesture of something. Instead, its been essentially Britain pretending that these obligations that we laid down ourselves (As Cyclops somewhat colorfully and not incorrectly points out ), do not exist.

    Essentially i'm criticizing what currently has become dubbed as Britain's 'schizophrenic' attitude to China, where the policy is entirely inconsistent and incompetent in the extreme due to having self-conflicting goals, which was well summarized a few months ago in an FT article which i can't find alas now, however some other viewpoints-
    https://thediplomat.com/2015/10/the-...hina-strategy/

    https://bfpg.co.uk/2019/04/chinas-be...onse-strategy/

    I would argue though that far from being 'inconsistent' the UK's strategy actually just does not exist... its the now ordinary incompetence personified. Labelling it as inconsistent might give off the impression there was a line to be consistent to. Instead its merely a haphazard mess, based on ministerial opinion of the day as we often at the same time spend a while sucking up to both the US and China as we alternate (even among Cabinet ministers- Williamson sending without Cabinet approval warships to China, just as Hammond visited them for trade talks and the furious cabinet brawling that sprang from that comes to mind) between a faux 'hard-line' which makes the smooching up null and void and undoes any 'positive work'...usually all at the same time. This is terrible for Britain as A) No real progress can be made towards 'a' goal, B) It undermines the legitimacy of Britain's entire political justification for essentially 'meddling' around the Globe- seen most recently with Government comments about how Britain is going to 'protect' the minorities of other countries, specifically Christians who are persecuted. The abandonment and lack of care given to Hong Kong gives the lie to this structure. While of course Foreign policies are rife with hypocrisy, rarely does such incompetence actually allow the hypocrisy to be clearly seen.

    What this has done for the OP reference specifically is left our self-given obligations for Hong Kong, by the wayside, one in which there has been apparently popular support for British help with advocating the 'umbrella revolutions terms to the Chinese government from Hong Kong groups, we've rather left them out to dry by imposing those stipulations in the first place, and now can't be bothered to do our duty, even in a way that is a mere gesture, such as not sabotaging and circumventing EU moves to prevent Chinese steel dumping, or looking to continue on regardless with huawei to the point that only public outcry and allied 'threats' of cutting us off from intelligence sources bring us around to maybe not going through with this...possibly.
    Last edited by Dante Von Hespburg; June 11, 2019 at 06:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Or you could simple say: UK is lost in Brexit.
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Indeed it would be fair to say that, though the issues in Hong Kong have been going on since 2014, so the UK doesn't even have the excuse that we've driven our legislature and executive into meltdown since 2016.

    But without Britain, who has an active duty to protect Hong Kong by treaty at least taking a stance indirectly (There is space here for the UK to work with the US for instance in using Hong Kong as part of the USA's wider ambition of needling China for trade concessions), i think that essentially Hong Kong is destined to become amalgamated within China as any other coastal city with the attendant issues over privacy and what Western states at least would consider personal freedoms, and perhaps worryingly under an increasingly authoritarian one-man regime. The west miscalculates China a lot (From stating every year it will crash, to assuming China acts like a 'nation state', or indeed for believing that capitalism in China would inevitably create a democracy, the two are not at all linked) and i think think in the long-term will prove something of a determinant, it's a given we're heading into a multipolar world, however the previous times- late 19th century European Great powers or the Cold War, where you can argue there was a division of the globe, at least all the sides have tended to understand one another and where they are coming from.

    What i've been getting from western academics on China is that we have actually little idea and far less in common than we actually think we do.
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    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The UK left a **** sandwich for the reds in Hong Kong. In the last five minutes they were there they discovered that the wanted to leave a democratic legacy after a century and a half of completely undemocratic Imperial rule. IIRC there was a five minute period in 1946 when the reds were looming when the idea of a bit of Hong Kong democracy surfaced, only to sink from view when the US sent two fleets to the region to prevent Chinese expansion in Korea 9and incidentally keeping the last warlord in power in Taiwan).

    Be lovely for everywhere in the world to have fair government. Be nice if Hong Kong did have a long established tradition of representative government, but they never have. Hong Kong is a bit of land stolen by the Poms, who deliberately spoiled it just prior to the handover by promising people things the Reds would not let them keep. Great work Thatcher you POS.
    I agree on that, it was pretty bad that Hong Kong's democratic reforms by Britain only came just before being handed back to an undemocratic Communist country.

    The thing is Hong Kong is a product of foreign investment capital, without that it would be undeveloped. These reforms were only ever done in an attempt to stem the huge flow of money from the province. Essentially though the agreement brokered with China, of which these reforms were a part, enabled Hong Kong to became the kick start of China's economy and foreign investment that previously flowed to China, thereafter was tempted across the border. Labour there was cheap, land was cheap. Cheap products on the British high streets that previously had made in Hong Kong stamped on the back, thereafter had made in China, and industrial production not only moved but greatly expanded.

    Three decades on, although China doesn't need Hong Kong like it did, capital flows through the province are stil substamtial. That is the only reason that Hong Kong has not been completely assimilated, not because of any treaty China had with Great Britain. China will though seek to control political dissent, and the present legislation is part of that process.

    You would expect though some comments from British politicians, on what is a rapidly developing crisis in a former colony. But I guess when it comes to responding to the public's demands is a sensitive subject, given that the Country remains in a Brexit limbo land with today the opposition parties moving to overide the elected government. When it comes to democracy, money interests will always have the whip hand over public opinion, whether its Hong Kong or anywhere else. If the current instability continues in Hong Kong though, that will very much undermine business interests much to the detrement of the Chinese economy. It will be interesting to see what happens.

    Hong Kong police used tear gas and battons on protesters, but the fight back, now have many holed up the government building.

    Last edited by caratacus; June 12, 2019 at 11:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Further protests in Hong Kong today were triggered by the official marking 22nd anniversary of the former colony's handover from Britain to China. Protestors took to the streets an hundreds stormed the Legislative Council building. They defaced the chamber with graffiti slogans and displayed the former British colonial flag, together with a banner reading- "There's no rioters, there's only tyranny." Protesters have exptressed five demands. They want a complete withdrawal of the extradition bill, an investigation of police brutality, retraction of the characterization of the protests as riots, the release of arrested protesters and leader Carrie Lam to step down.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    I wonder if this will cause China to loosen control of Hong Kong and scrap the extradition bill entirely, or do the opposite and even send the army, for fear that these protests might spread into mainland China.

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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    I worry it will be the opposite - I can't see Xi Jinping backing down in any serious fashion. Sending in the army would probably be too much but I can imagine more covert means being enacted. Also, I'm not sure how I feel about this occupation of the LegCo building as surely it plays into the hands of those suggesting the protestors are rioters and the like, not to mention the hanging up of the British flag could fuel the conspiracies that the protests are being orchestrated by foreign powers. It does seem that things have reached boiling point since even the previous protests didn't resort to such aggressive measures. Hong Kongers are (rightfully) pissed off with what's happening to their city, the only question is whether their actions will pay off or make things worse.
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    I worry it will be the opposite - I can't see Xi Jinping backing down in any serious fashion. Sending in the army would probably be too much but I can imagine more covert means being enacted. Also, I'm not sure how I feel about this occupation of the LegCo building as surely it plays into the hands of those suggesting the protestors are rioters and the like, not to mention the hanging up of the British flag could fuel the conspiracies that the protests are being orchestrated by foreign powers. It does seem that things have reached boiling point since even the previous protests didn't resort to such aggressive measures. Hong Kongers are (rightfully) pissed off with what's happening to their city, the only question is whether their actions will pay off or make things worse.
    Sooner or later, well built blokes in civvies and shades will be dragging people into the back of cars.

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    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    I see this morning that Beijing's silence on these disturbances is broken with a condemnation of the protestors and an urge for the Hong Kong authorities to take action against them. I anticipate that Carrie Lam will not be in her position as Chief Executive very long, because a CE that cannot keep order is no good to China and she has become one of the principle focuses of the protest.
    Hong Kong protests: China says protesters 'trample rule of law'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-48835278
    However, I cannot see the heavy hand of China coming down too much, despite their obvious anger at what has been going on. The reason is because although the Communist authorities may well be fuming, Hong Kong is still extremely important to the Chinese economy. It is a main portal through which large amounts of capital are transferred in and out of China. That was the deal struck when it was handed over and the reason Western countries like the UK and the US are very reluctant to comment about these events. Xi Jinping will not do anything that will cause this cash boat to rock, especially at a time of economic uncertainty.

    I think you also have to look at these events not just in political terms. The majority of those protesting yesterday were young Hong Kong Chinese, 18-25 age. They live in a city with one of the most expensive real estates in the World, but the economy outside of finance has become lacklustre. Where income disparities have become extremely wide. They look at the political situation and think, where is our future, is this our city? It is a situation though shared by a great many, not just in Hong Kong but in many global cities around the world. China though unlike any other capitalist country, is an increasing authoritarian state run by the super rich with a Communist system of government that prevents any form of political challenge. There is no possibility of change, and when you take away hope, you create conditions for subversion, for which even greater authoritarianism becomes justified.

    Hong Kong falls behind in equality, poverty reduction and environmental protection – but leads in arrogance
    https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight...erty-reduction

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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    You can start to watch the protest at 1:50 in this video:


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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ukiah View Post
    You can start to watch the protest at 1:50 in this video:
    Is this your video? if so can you confirm that as the pictures show, the crowd were relaxed and calm and not in any way angry and violent.

    It appears China is today scolding the UK for the mild comments made by British politicians about the protests.

    Hong Kong protests: China tells UK not to interfere in 'domestic affairs'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48855643
    China's UK ambassador said relations had been "damaged" by comments by Foreign Secretary Jeremy Hunt and others backing the demonstrators' actions. Liu Xiaoming said those who illegally occupied Hong Kong's Parliament should be "condemned as law breakers". He said he was "disappointed" by the UK's response. that the countries' relationship was based on mutual respect and suggested there would be further "problems" if the UK did not recognise China's sovereignty over Hong Kong, its "territorial integrity and principle of non-interference in domestic affairs".
    China tells 'colonial' Britain: hands off Hong Kong
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN1TY29U
    LONDON (Reuters) - China said on Wednesday the British seem to have forgotten that Hong Kong is no longer a colony, warning London to keep its hands off the territory. “In the minds of some people, they regard Hong Kong as still under British rule. They forget ... that Hong Kong has now returned to the embrace of the Motherland,” China’s ambassador to London, Liu Xiaoming, said. “I tell them: hands off Hong Kong and show respect,” Liu added. “This colonial mindset is still haunting the minds of some officials or politicians.”
    The ambassador has later summoned to the Foreign Office for an explanation of his very public undiplomatic language. I understand some of ambassador's comments, but he seems to have gone too far in his tone. This is quite typical though of China's sensitivity on Hong Kong and their arrogant approach to criticism of any kind. There is more concern about what foreigners say, than what Hong Kong people actually think.

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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    Would this become another Spring of Plague, or just another Anschluss?? But I guess no matter what, Xi would just envy the 99.7% referendum of support Hitler got, because Xi would never able to get one.
    Last edited by hellheaven1987; July 04, 2019 at 10:11 AM.
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    caratacus's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    This video gives a disturbing insight into what is developing in Hong Kong. After yet another day of mass protest of thousands of people, organised groups of men in white T-shirts and armed with sticks, have been attacking reporters and people on the Subway system, seemingly without police intervention. It looks very ugly and likely that this is to provoke a reaction rather than to intimidate.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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    Default Re: Hundreds of thousands march in Hong Kong to protest China extradition bill

    That is just same as how CCP "cleaning" the China in 50s - by deploying mafia as vanguard then the party members would "arrest" those mafia once they executing all the local landlords.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

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