The mod feels less polished since 1.1 ...

[Achilles Lacedaemon]

Upon recently returning to Rome II and this mod, which was always quintessential for me when it came to playing Rome II, I couldnt help but feel that the mod changed a lot since 1.1, the version I played the most...


What bothers me is some of the various design and aesthetic changes... many spearmen have now been converted to "phalanxes" capable of doing the phalanx formation that only pikes could do... and this results in some awkward situations because spearmen like hoplites dont have the range of pikemen, so in various instances I see my soldiers or the AI's just staring idle at the enemy without properly engaging or positioning correctly... not to mention that the back lines of the hoplites/spearmen who use the phalanx now have soldiers standing idle in an non threatening/aware animation, breaking so much of the visual immersion this mod once had... I really dont understand this design change and it frankly only bothers me and makes the AI even more crippled... the old sparmen/hoplite phalanx of 1.1 felt much more functional, specially for the AI.

Other things like the population system seems to be very unresponsive, with numbers sometimes being static and not replenishing or getting any form of increase... in Coop I think it might have serious bugs too, but I digress.


For some other reasons it also looks like factions got their rosters reworked, and not always to a better place... Some factions now have even less variety than I remember, and less units; to top that, it seems like, differently from the 1.1 version, which had a lot in terms of visual variety and diversity ( and made the various cultures and factions to feel unique and field unique armies with their unique dressing and battle gear ), it feels like for some reason the new iterations decided to just slap a linothorax and an hoplon on everyone, making all the factions look greek (or a bunch of hobos who stole some equipment from greek soldiers) and taking so much away from how iconic and unique every faction felt before, be it to play as them or to face them in the campaign... Now all factions feel more or less the same, visual-wise at least.

If I could, I would go back to 1.1, but I believe I would be met with tons of bugs since the current game version wouldnt support it.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts.

[zala]

Should have posted this in the main feedback/critique thread bud!

[Dead*Man*Wilson]

Well, its all in the eye of the beholder, isn't it?

Concerning faction rosters-- more does not mean better. Not all factions are going to have every single unit type. Not all factions have 'balanced' armies. This is by design. I would say at this point, the rosters and visuals thereof are as unique as ever. Older roster units have been kept on as AOR, mercenary and non-playable faction units. The newer units often use completely new assets.

Getting used to something new takes time. Most people would agree the current build is much better off. The units are just scratching the surface as far as the difference between 1.1 and 1.2. I'd take the time to learn about whats new and getting more familiar with it.

It's a new world, sir. Don't be the old man shaking his fist at the sky

[KennyTheKlever]

I completely agree regarding the visual changes - particularly to the Hellenic factions. It's not a matter of 'subjectivity' or 'getting used to it' as the other comment dismissed it. The DeI team have gone to the huge effort of the massive additions to faction rosters since 1.1, and then degraded this work by removing the iconic look of the Ptolemies, Seleucids, Macedonians, etc., and making most of their core units visually interchangeable.

I'll also add the weird visual choice of making even the later Roman units wearing different equipment, with some soldiers wearing the full lorica segmentata and others just chainmail, along with different shield designs. I know it was integrating a nice visual mod, but it makes the later Roman legions looks like a patchwork of different classes of soldier, rather than a uniform unit with standardised equipment.

[Dead*Man*Wilson]

Thats fair enough and I'm certainly not trying to dismiss anybody but... this is all completely subjective. I mean, you use the term 'iconic' when describing how the Successor factions used to look in 1.1--and how they have been 'degraded' since then. It meets the following definition:


sub·jec·tive
/səbˈjektiv/
adjective
1.
based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions.
"his views are highly subjective"
synonyms: personal, personalized, individual, internal, emotional, instinctive, intuitive, impressionistic; More

[zala]

Lads let not turn this into a spitting war, otherwise I shall throw you upon my sarissas

[Dead*Man*Wilson]

Thanks zala, but I'm a big boy.

[Icarus Smicarus]

it makes the later Roman legions looks like a patchwork of different classes of soldier, rather than a uniform unit with standardised equipment.

This is a GOOD thing. Nothing annoys me more than popular portrayals of legionaries that resemble a modern "uniformed" army.

[zala]

This is a GOOD thing. Nothing annoys me more than popular portrayals of legionaries that resemble a modern "uniformed" army.

I'm forced to agree

[KAM 2150]

With all due respect....Hellenic factions WERE identical BEFORE we made recent changes, they even had exact same units, like literally exact same entries in files.

I really, really want to hear what was iconic about their look before, which is not iconic now. Unless someones counts fantasy and continued misinformation as iconic.

Now all Hellenic factions are finally unique, with unique unit entries, unique textures and most importantly, they show units that were actually used instead of fantasy thorax hoplites on all of them.

For some other reasons it also looks like factions got their rosters reworked, and not always to a better place... Some factions now have even less variety than I remember, and less units; to top that, it seems like, differently from the 1.1 version, which had a lot in terms of visual variety and diversity ( and made the various cultures and factions to feel unique and field unique armies with their unique dressing and battle gear ), it feels like for some reason the new iterations decided to just slap a linothorax and an hoplon on everyone, making all the factions look greek (or a bunch of hobos who stole some equipment from greek soldiers) and taking so much away from how iconic and unique every faction felt before, be it to play as them or to face them in the campaign... Now all factions feel more or less the same, visual-wise at least.

What you describe is the state BEFORE we have made this changes, all hellenic factions had more or less same units with same look. Now they are not only unique, have more diveristy and on top of that are more accurate, compared to previous one that were in many cases made in 50% of units that they did not use.


Honestly people, I fail to understand how recent massive roster improvement, with tons of new stuff added and more unique units implemented made factions same looking and less diverse.

Either someone is trolling or is really misinformed about the subject.

[Dardo21]

Imperial era units were more uniform with the introduction of the imperial gallea and equipment given by the state, even still there were several versions of the imperial helmets so having them wear these is hardly a "weird visual choice" it's made out to be. As far as I'm aware, all imperial Roman units ingame wear the lorica segmentata alongside the hamata, which is not illogical either since that saw continued use before and after the segmentata were phased out. Besides, there isn't clear evidence either that all roman legions wore the lorica segmentata either. Unless you were somehow trying to depict us for making 'weird choices' for not equipping all auxiliaries with the lorica segmentata as well, for which there is hardly any evidence at all, bar from some German and Macedonian units possibly wearing it I believe.

[zala]

With all due respect....Hellenic factions WERE identical BEFORE we made recent changes, they even had exact same units, like literally exact same entries in files.

I really, really want to hear what was iconic about their look before, which is not iconic now. Unless someones counts fantasy and continued misinformation as iconic.

Now all Hellenic factions are finally unique, with unique unit entries, unique textures and most importantly, they show units that actually used instead of fantasy thorax hoplites on all of them.



What you describe is the state BEFORE we have made this changes, all hellenic factions had more or less same units with same look. Now they are not only unique, have more diveristy and on top of that are more accurate, compared to previous one that were in many cases made in 50% of units that they did not use.


Honestly people, I fail to understand how recent massive roster improvement, with tons of new stuff added and more unique units impemented made factions same looking and less diverse.

Either someone is trolling or is really misinformed about the subject.

+1

[Dresden]

As DMW said everything is subjective, but I can't disagree more about the rosters. If you look at what has been released since 1.1 you will see tons of new assets and models that were custom made just for this mod. A whole lot of new unit variety and historical weapons, armor, shields, etc. have been added to add all kinds of new unit diversity. Being the one who had to worry about mod size for so many years, trust me I am the one to know about that

If your population system is bugged then that is one thing, but its also possible its just a new system that you have to get used to as well. You should check out our video guide and other tutorials. The population system has been one of the most successful and unique additions to any mod that I can remember and is almost universally praised. Yes, I am sure there are plenty of issues you can find with it but for the most part I believe it not only accomplishes its goals as a system it also adds a very different layer of gameplay to the mod. I will defend it forever but I am obviously biased.

In terms of "slapping linothorax and hoplon" on everyone I am not sure what you are referring to exactly? A large amount of the factions that got worked on were never really addressed in the mod other than in the days prior to even 1.0 being released. Quite a lot of the Greek factions were basically vanilla rosters with a few shield additions until KAM worked on changing them to be more historically accurate and to use a lot of new and unique units. The Hellenic and Successor rosters are all very different now whereas before they were almost the exact same roster. Epirus, Pergamon, Baktria, Sparta, Athens, Macedon, etc. all have very unique and different concepts for their rosters that I would be happy to explain or you can check out the previews in the preview thread. I can just link you the insane amount of work that was done post-1.1:

1.2.4 Previews
General Overview Video
Kingdom of Armenia
Changing Traits System

1.2.3 Previews
Mauryan Overhaul
Carthage Overhaul
Campaign & Building Changes
Roman Appearance Changes

General 1.2 Preview

Campaign Preview Threads
New Grand Campaign
Character Traits Overhaul
Buildings/Income Overhaul
Politics
Historical Family System

Battle Preview Threads
1.2 Battle Overhaul

Unit Preview Threads
Numidians
Galatians
Getae
Iceni
Arverni
Seleucids & Thrace
Ptolemaic Kingdom
Athens & Pontus
Macedon & Epirus Part 1
Macedon & Epirus Part 2
Sparta
Iweriu
Kartli
Colchis
Bactria
The Edetani
Medewi
Kaledonakoi
Atropatkan
Greek Factions
Lusitani
Additional Units
The Scordisci
The Arevaci

------------------------

And thats just a few of the things that had major previews Just look at all the roster work that almost all had custom and unique additions/assets...

Finally, for the new phalanx I actually agree with the overall sentiment. The older phalanx was unpopular for other reasons but it had the advantage of not being tied to pike formation, which causes all kinds of problems. There actually aren't that many spear units that use it other than a few very elite barbarian units for a couple factions. However, for hoplites I did prefer the old one as well. Nevertheless, the new formations do better represent the use of multiple weapon types and allow for units to leave formation as well, which was a huge problem for some players previously. I think this is also subjective and people will have varying opinions on it I am sure.

Everyone has their opinion and I am happy to have them voice it, but I think you may need to take the time to check out what exactly has been worked on since 1.1. Years of work and new features have been added and the mod is actually more "polished" than ever. If you check out the bug reports or major issues you will find they are minor and that we have worked tirelessly to provide a consistent and fairly bug free experience.

If you have any problems I suggest reporting them in the bug thread so we can help with that and I also highly recommend checking out those previews and new guides that will hopefully help as a returning player. I should note it may also be possible to use an old game beta option in Steam and our 1.1 download if you really do want that as well. Like I said, I understand everyone has their preferences.

[Narekatsi]

I actually agree with you on the changes done to spearmen, some are given the weird "disciplined formation" which is pretty useless unless used against cavalry, and it serves almost no purpose against infantry. Also some spearmen had their previous abilities removed so they just fight 1v1 with a spear. And yeah I have also noticed phalanx unites look dumb when they are being flanked by all directions and yet continue to face one direction and still somehow they manage to die very slowly. But about the visuals, I completely disagree, factions before were more bland, and 1.2.4b has the best looking rosters in the game. No other mod/vanilla can compete with DeI roster overhauls.

[Dumanthis]

I have played DeI since 1.0 and can say with a lot of experience that it has come a long way and now is nearing the perfect state in my opinion. The logic of mod is intuitive in battles and strategic map and I have had a ton of fun with MPC as well. I disagree with the statement that earlier versions are better since there where some important issues then that are now resolved. For example there were times when phalanx was a 360 degree defensive formation, missiles could not kill anyone and cavalry was op/ useless and so on I also disagree with the statement that unit visuals are now less diverse than before. I would say that they are now better representing the major changes in warfare in the ancient world that took place historically (i.e from phalanx to thureos to legionary style etc.)

Regarding the units, the focus of DeI in my understanding has always been historical accuracy and this is shown in the mod in that there has become little space for fantasy units with no sourcing while there has been implemented a ton of units based on research. The awesome thing also for this mod is that while the rosters are not meant to be identical they are also designed so that each nation has a specific style of play and tactics, making the experience very diverse and fun to play. For example a phalanx heavy faction can do its own thing and win while it can also be defeated by a numidian style skirmisher army when played properly

[♔Greek Strategos♔]

@Achilles Lacedaemon
You should have posted your thoughts and opinions in the dedicated stickied thread. Next time please follow the appropriate procedure.
Thank you.