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Thread: So I bought the game and.. urghh

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    Lionheart11's Avatar Senator
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    Default So I bought the game and.. urghh

    Not really enjoying it, If R2 was over simplified , then this seems to need a PHD in tw geek to operate. The economy seem stagnate as usual, the tech tree is a mystery, diplomacy is pot luck. After 3 hours I still feel lost in menus which is leaving me frustrated in the game and ive played every tw title. Shogun 2 was a favorite especially Fots. I actually put the advisor on high thinking it would tell me everything but it doesn't.

    Anyone else having these experiences.
    Last edited by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham; June 05, 2019 at 09:09 PM. Reason: Corrected title spelling
    "illegitimi non carborundum"

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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    Keep in mind that the economy is still similar to what Empire has - small towns, cities & trade in between. The tech tree is actually quite balanced and I really enjoy the diplomacy aspect.

    However, I do agree here - the menus are very confusing, the UX is very cluttered in battles and it's a labyrinth.
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    I mean, for me it seemed not this complicated at all, just new things to learn as always with new mechanics in tw games, i think you can relate about that with relationships between characters, but it's not so incredibly important for the success of the campaign. Diplomacy is deep and well done, economy is just simply choosing what income you want, from commerce or labor, tech tree develops in branches as always. Can't figure it out what you mean by "it's complicated" at all.

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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    In a way, isn't it a good sign that the UI is cluttered ? Maybe it means that the campaign management is deep. I like how the different systems are interacting one with the other, creating complexity, but without being complicated.

    What I found the most frustrating personally : 90% of the time, when a diplomacy message shows up with a faction leader's name, I have absolutely no clue who they are and where their province is, even grossly. Most of them have the same face, and their banners I can't differentiate one from another.
    Last edited by Yerevan; June 01, 2019 at 11:24 AM.
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerevan View Post
    What I found the most frustrating personally : 90% of the time, when a diplomacy message shows up with a faction leader's name, I have absolutely no clue who they are and where their province is, even grossly. Most of them have the same face, and their banners I can't differentiate one from another.
    Yes this! And I'm playing it as co-op campaign with my other half sat next to me, every time there's a diplomacy message the other person gets to go off and try and figure out who on earth the faction is before the options time-out. Having to remember and notice that 'Yan' is different from 'Yang' isn't helping...

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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    I have not had too much trouble navigating. I did watch a few videos pre release so i got a good sense where everything was.

    I agree thst the tech tree is confusing. There is absolutely no infornation on the main screen. U have to mouse over each one and hope to find something good. I like how many different paths/branches are available but would prefer more info laid out on the main screen ala civilization tech tree.

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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    I think you can't really judge after only three hours. You've only just begun and are still deep into the learning phase of the game.

    The only UI problems I have are the Reform Tree, which is both unsightful and non-logical (why are the same bonusses spread all over the place, instead of a single branch?), and unclarity over which type of general unlocks which formation and bonusses. Plus the regular Total War hidden stats BS.

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    Yerevan's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    The thing with this reform tree is : it is indeed a tree.

    Peach or cherry tree, I'm not sure yet, but I'm confident I will find it easier to read after a couple of campaigns.

    I really appreciate the effort put by CA in the art, for those kind of screens. This is part of what gave S2TW such a special atmosphere.

    THe characters skill tree though, is too repetitive.
    Last edited by Yerevan; June 01, 2019 at 06:07 PM.
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    Quote Originally Posted by makanyane View Post
    Yes this! And I'm playing it as co-op campaign with my other half sat next to me, every time there's a diplomacy message the other person gets to go off and try and figure out who on earth the faction is before the options time-out. Having to remember and notice that 'Yan' is different from 'Yang' isn't helping...
    this x1000

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerevan View Post
    The thing with this reform tree is : it is indeed a tree.

    Peach or cherry tree, I'm not sure yet, but I'm confident I will find it easier to read after a couple of campaigns.

    I really appreciate the effort put by CA in the art, for those kind of screens. This is part of what gave S2TW such a special atmosphere.

    THe characters skill tree though, is too repetitive.
    its definitely cherry blossoms.
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    Lionheart11's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    found a couple of videos that may help, think I need to watch more of them. This game seems like it would be too much for a tw noob. If your not having fun with the game you will just stop playing it, it needs to be enjoyable and not such a chore. I guess its a fine line between a challenge and a frustrating grind.



    Last edited by La♔De♔Da♔Brigadier Graham; June 01, 2019 at 08:09 PM. Reason: Added Youtube tags
    "illegitimi non carborundum"

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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    There are a couple of things are difficult to handle here...

    The diplomacy pop ups I agree I sometimes do not know the smaller factions and and once the main characters from startup are all dead, it gets harder to remember who is who. Fortunately, living in China, I can recognize the difference in the names. The faces do look somewhat different, but the women seem to be one or two phenotype.

    In the "reform tree" i did noticed at least one really oddity. There is a reform that gives +2 for public order, but the accompanied buildings, if you were to build them, would give a -10 for public order. It seems odd that a reform that increase pubic order wold provide buildings that reduces public order. As it turns out, when I became a Duke, I had public order issues, and the +2 did the trick for the most part.

    I personally do not think I have grasp the economic aspects of the game, though I do routinely have an income of 3- 4,000 at time and once it was as high as 8,000+. However, much of that has to do with not having the full compliment of armies.

    In diplomacy, a nice little idea to do is to trade auxiliaries. You get them like rain and they could give a trade balance of up to 6.0 (usually 2.o- 4.0 however).

    BTW, I am playing Gongsun Zan. The game describes it has a normal start, but I would say it is an easy start. You basically are surrounded by two other factions in which neither one provide any real challenge and two a few Han Empire provinces. Next to them is Kong Rong and Liu Bei who was friendly towards me up until is ultimate demise.

    Anyway,...

    A couple of other issues is when I have several armies together and the AI attacks me, the other armies, despite being literally right next to each other, are not reinforcements. Ironically, the AI armies, most further way are factored in. In another situation, I had four armies are close to each other and this one army jumped in like an enraged tiger, had decisive victory predicted, so I retreated, each army in turn. However, on my turn, I attacked with all four and one an easy victory. Before anyone ask, yes all of the armies are on normal stance.

    Another issue I have is why can't Zoom out to see the entire map without scrolling? Plus, if I am a Kingdom, why is it I do not see the entire map, especially, the ability to see the territory of the factions I am aware of. I seriously doubt a Chinese General would be unaware f the political situation of the "middle Kingdom."

    On to the battles, I was defending a slat mine, and the attacking army fought to the death (practically). That seems like a rather odd thing to do. Plus, I appreciate the fact that soldiers do not die in droves, but some units seem to old on till like loose more than 60-70% of the force.
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    I'm managing okay, but I found Medieval 2 confusing, and that was my second game, I think with the more and more features, a "scaled back" mode is needed, with the features divided into intermediate and advanced so you only have to learn a few new features at a time.
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    Is it me, or the only way to check which province a character administrates is to check in every cities garrison ?

    Another unpractical thing is when you clicked on a faction in the diplomacy screen, it will only show other faction's attitude to that faction of course. But if you want to see their attitude toward your faction you have to escape he diplomatic screen and come back.
    Last edited by Yerevan; June 02, 2019 at 04:44 AM.
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    I am not sure I follow. There is a check box on the map that you can see other faction's attitude towards you and others if you click on their territory. In the Diplomacy screen where they list each faction there is a "mask" that is color codded based on their attitude towards you.

    ADDENDUM
    Another thing i find weird is sometimes, it doesn't give you options to choose, usually when they are at war with you. It doesn't exactly say why. It might have something to do with being a vassal and that they are at war with you because of the association and thus cannot make peace deals.

    Update on the map, if you turn it sideways, you can almost get the whole thing in. Prefer the zoom out myself.
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionheart11 View Post
    Not really enjoying it, If R2 was over simplified , then this seems to need a PHD in tw geek to operate. The economy seem stagnate as usual, the tech tree is a mystery, diplomacy is pot luck. After 3 hours I still feel lost in menus which is leaving me frustrated in the game and ive played every tw title. Shogun 2 was a favorite especially Fots. I actually put the advisor on high thinking it would tell me everything but it doesn't.

    Anyone else having these experiences.
    F1 command brings up a contextual menu. But it's going to take a while to get familiar with menus and how systems work.

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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I am not sure I follow. There is a check box on the map that you can see other faction's attitude towards you and others if you click on their territory. In the Diplomacy screen where they list each faction there is a "mask" that is color codded based on their attitude towards you.
    Yes, apparently I didn't pay attention when zooming out. The other thing I didn't get is that in the diplomacy screen I just had to click a second time on a faction so that the "masks" of each faction display the diplomatic attitudes towards me, not towards them.

    I don't know, maybe most of the issues I have with the UI come from the fact I haven't been playing much TW those last years. That, and a geographical and historical context I barely know makes me feel in unknown territory. Well, that doesn't prevent me from enjoying this game a lot.
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    Something that should at least partially help in the diplomatic interactions is that major factions - that is, factions you can select and play - have large rectangular flags, while minor factions have triangular flags. In all actuality, you only need pay attention to the factions with rectangular flags, and the triangular ones who are on your immediate borders (who shouldn't be that tough to remember).

    If you're confused about anything, try hitting F1, it brings up an additional information on each piece of UI.
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    Yest another thing,...
    The number of women that were "leaders" within all of Chinese history can be counted essentially on one hand,... well, at any given moment, they are more women in leadership.

    I also noticed that there are a lack of marriage partners. Gongsun Zan had four children and the second generation has "0" with only one of them getting married... check that, the youngest brother had a wife offered to him.

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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionheart11 View Post
    Not really enjoying it, If R2 was over simplified , then this seems to need a PHD in tw geek to operate. The economy seem stagnate as usual, the tech tree is a mystery, diplomacy is pot luck. After 3 hours I still feel lost in menus which is leaving me frustrated in the game and ive played every tw title. Shogun 2 was a favorite especially Fots. I actually put the advisor on high thinking it would tell me everything but it doesn't.

    Anyone else having these experiences.
    There are a couple of things to keep in mind that help a lot with economy: Buildings very much profit each other in certain combinations and the types of minor settlements very much influence which will be the most profitable choice for the commandery - depending on a dominance of industrial, commercial or peasantry income in the minor settlements one should build the appropriate supporting buildings in the commandery capital.
    Also, battling corruption becomes a must once you have surpassed a certain size in territory. I was stuck around 11k income due to corruption and it soared up to 30k once I actually did something against it by the use of coinage and magistrate buildings and reforms.

    Reforms are very much self explanatory and much more realistic than the "tech trees" of earlier games. Unlike technological advances that you actually cannot plan out as the games would have it to be reforms are plannable and can be put into action on demand. There are five distinct branches of reforms that are recognisable by their colour and they support their respective buildings, units, type of general and bonus. Everything belonging to a cluster is easily identified by the respective colour in the game:
    Blue - Strategists, Merchant buildings, Archers, Character management and merchant income
    Green - Champions, Agriculture buildings, Polearm infrantry, Food production and peasantry income
    Red - Vanguards, Military infrastructure, assault infantry and cavalry, military supply and bonuses
    Yellow - Commanders, Government buildings, melee cavalry, governance and public order
    Purple - Sentinels, Industrial buildings, defensive shield infantry, industrial income and building bonuses

    Diplomacy works very predictable. If you spend some time studying the factors shown that influence a character's acceptance or rejection of your proposals it becomes much easier to influence them to your end.

    Finally, yes, the various names are unfamiliar at first and the fact that a faction changes name when its leader dies (unless it is already settled as a duchy, kingdom or empire) may be rather confusing, but consider two things:
    The game is heavily character based (and very well worked out in that regard), so a faction is basically defined by its leading character - if that character dies and is replaced by a different one it heavily changes how that faction behaves strategically, based on the new leader's personality. This effect was attempted to implement in Attila already, but it actually works now. So factions whose leaders die essentially do become new factions, hence the name change is not too far fetched.
    Secondly, it is simply a learning process to get used to the names and their sound/spelling. It is not that different from how an eastern Asian person would have to deal with playing any of the western themed TW games - and having to tell apart Getae and Getulae, Galicians and Galatians, Brittany and Britain, Lusitania and Lutetia.
    I personally find it quite intriguing to dive into a setting hitherto completely unknown to me.
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    Default Re: So i brought the game and.. urghh

    One way to demystify the names is to get the basics on how Chinese is pronounced.
    Here are a couple of websites to sort of get the idea.
    chinesepod.com/tools/pronunciation/section/4
    digmandarin.com/chinese-pronunciation-guide.html


    Just to piggyback on iskar's post, there is this video that explains the basics of the economy


    Personally, I haven't paid too much attention to the economy. What I normally do, is build up a a substantial treasury. Trade usually is large part of the income. For me it is inevitable that my income takes a hit whenever I do to war. That buffer, large treasury, becomes very beneficial. Unlike the advice in the video, I never disband an army*. On thing I learned about playing TW is that war is never far away.

    * I do disband for geographical reasons. Once you become large enough, it is more efficient to disband and build an army in a different region. If CA ever wises up, it will have you wait until the "general" can actually be in that location.
    Last edited by PikeStance; June 03, 2019 at 08:51 PM.
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