Mod&Fix ideas for Records mode.

[SargonTheDude]

Who cares about Romance, not anyone on here I'd imagine... So let's get to it.

1) If there is a way to nerf arched fire, compared to direct fire, it'd be much appreciated. Maybe make Crossbows incapable of it.
Also make Fire Arrows a one off ability, like in Shogun 2.


2) Either increase movement range in own territory, or, preferably; nerf forced march range in enemy territory somehow.
Make it cause attrition, reduce the range, whatever.

3) Make units less dependent on character class type, and more on level. Sure, reserve better stuff for the appropriate type of commander, but allow for a slower adoption of some of the middle to low upper tier units of other branches. Why *everyone* can't recruit shielded spearmen, I have no idea. It's insane.
Maybe, if possible, add the units to be able to be unlocked in a commander via certain military tech trees ontop of the leveling up/commander type way.

4) Nerf population growth. I know China was huge, and during the Han there was a point where China held supposedly 1/4th of the global population... But during the chaos of the three kingdoms period, there was a huge drop in population due to the stresses of the long periods of war. Even WITHOUT building ANY pop increasing buildings, the population issue can really get out of control.

Sure, it can be managed after it burns you once and you become more vigilant. But it still feels like the population's comprised of rabbits rather than human beings.

5) Some path-finding issues. Especially with settlements. I'm no modder so if this is a major, or minor fix, IDK.

6) Add the AI improvements on higher difficulty settings to ALL settings.
I want to fight that AI without feeling like my men are under preforming... It's weird, but it drags me out of the moment when my men are artificially being gimped.
But I *want* that better AI.

7) Make Records mode default, we all know it's the only mode worth playing.

PS: I can't wait for a historical mod, but that's too big for the scope of this entry. So for any of those wanting to do so. I am fully in support, and while I don't know a lot about historical accuracy in that Era. I have a friend passionate about Records over Romance, speaks/reads Chinese, *is* Chinese, might be able to talk him in to helping in terms of research.

[Schwieger]

Who cares about Romance, not anyone on here I'd imagine... So let's get to it.1) If there is a way to nerf arched fire, compared to direct fire, it'd be much appreciated. Maybe make Crossbows incapable of it.Also make Fire Arrows a one off ability, like in Shogun 2.2) Either increase movement range in own territory, or, preferably; nerf forced march range in enemy territory somehow.Make it cause attrition, reduce the range, whatever.3) Make units less dependent on character class type, and more on level. Sure, reserve better stuff for the appropriate type of commander, but allow for a slower adoption of some of the middle to low upper tier units of other branches. Why *everyone* can't recruit shielded spearmen, I have no idea. It's insane.Maybe, if possible, add the units to be able to be unlocked in a commander via certain military tech trees ontop of the leveling up/commander type way.4) Nerf population growth. I know China was huge, and during the Han there was a point where China held supposedly 1/4th of the global population... But during the chaos of the three kingdoms period, there was a huge drop in population due to the stresses of the long periods of war. Even WITHOUT building ANY pop increasing buildings, the population issue can really get out of control.Sure, it can be managed after it burns you once and you become more vigilant. But it still feels like the population's comprised of rabbits rather than human beings.5) Some path-finding issues. Especially with settlements. I'm no modder so if this is a major, or minor fix, IDK.6) Add the AI improvements on higher difficulty settings to ALL settings.I want to fight that AI without feeling like my men are under preforming... It's weird, but it drags me out of the moment when my men are artificially being gimped.But I *want* that better AI.7) Make Records mode default, we all know it's the only mode worth playing.PS: I can't wait for a historical mod, but that's too big for the scope of this entry. So for any of those wanting to do so. I am fully in support, and while I don't know a lot about historical accuracy in that Era. I have a friend passionate about Records over Romance, speaks/reads Chinese, *is* Chinese, might be able to talk him in to helping in terms of research.

Good content by a respectable man,,,,I like it.

[prithupaul]

I do not support your no. 3. Specialised recruitment is one of the best features of this game. They could add a tier 1 spear and shield unit that can be recruited by everyone.

The rest are okay.

I would add two of my own -

7. Let the player pick their bodyguard unit type from their list of elite units.
8. Add some of the realistic general abilities to records mode such as rally, intimidate, inspire etc.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

@ prithupaul

I think 8 is in but it is all passive now or is triggered not by pushing a botton. For example intimidation and rage can be triggered when one of two generals who like each other is hurt or even killed. I play in records mode but even there my One-Eyed general got a freaking powerfull ragemode after my Guo Jia was slayed during battle. He took on 4 units of spears in an frontal assault with his bodyguard. From 93 Horseman over 70 died but after that those 4 spear units he frontally assaulted were beaten. I really liked the outcome. No one should charge spears realistically but he was mad and nearly killed himself so that actually pretty okey for me.

[BreadBuax]

The unit types need a rebalance in general, ranged units are ludicrously powerful.

A minor immersion mod idea is to replace those ridiculous trinket ancillaries like wooden fish, clay rat, stone monkey, jade snake(come on dude) etc with historical titles such as ‘General of Left’, ‘General of the Cavalry and Chariots’ and ‘General who destroys the barbarians’ etc.

[Foot Companion]

I'd like a feature where you can attack a besieging army with your force outside the city, but have the option of the garrison not reinforcing and staying inside the walls. A good hit and run tactic to wear them down

[SargonTheDude]

The unit types need a rebalance in general, ranged units are ludicrously powerful.

A minor immersion mod idea is to replace those ridiculous trinket ancillaries like wooden fish, clay rat, stone monkey, jade snake(come on dude) etc with historical titles such as ‘General of Left’, ‘General of the Cavalry and Chariots’ and ‘General who destroys the barbarians’ etc.

I disagree about the ranged units being OP. This isn't the fault of the ranged units, but more a byproduct of the absurd amount of shielded light units. Even she shielded units can have tiny shields compared to what we're used to seeing in the West with Rome, Barbarians, Greeks, etc.

The meta of China, historically, was some commander shouting MORE CONSCRIPTS at the people in his lands. While in Europe it was shock infantry focused. Big shields, everyone and their mother's slinging some kind of projectiles, everyone's got at least some basic armor.
There's a reason you didn't see polearms become prevalent in the west until plate became readily available.

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

I do not support your no. 3. Specialised recruitment is one of the best features of this game. They could add a tier 1 spear and shield unit that can be recruited by everyone.

The rest are okay.

I would add two of my own -

7. Let the player pick their bodyguard unit type from their list of elite units.
8. Add some of the realistic general abilities to records mode such as rally, intimidate, inspire etc.

It's too specialized though. You only get 3 generals. That make combined arms almost impossible.

I think they should be buffed under the right general, but not limited to.

Besides, in this period, specialized generals aren't a thing.

[Mantis42]

A minor immersion mod idea is to replace those ridiculous trinket ancillaries like wooden fish, clay rat, stone monkey, jade snake(come on dude) etc with historical titles such as ‘General of Left’, ‘General of the Cavalry and Chariots’ and ‘General who destroys the barbarians’ etc.

How would this work with this being items you can sell to other warlords?

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

that could perhaps be disabled or be set to have no value.

[apw2]

I think I think would be good is to rename the factions or have they renamed when the leader dies.

For example, I fought a battle and killed their leader Liu Biao, yet the faction "Liu Biao" still exists with the same leader image. How can I be fighting or negotiating with a dead man? Makes no sense.

[JupiterMoneta]

I think I think would be good is to rename the factions or have they renamed when the leader dies.

For example, I fought a battle and killed their leader Liu Biao, yet the faction "Liu Biao" still exists with the same leader image. How can I be fighting or negotiating with a dead man? Makes no sense.

Probably a bug, I always see the faction name change when the leader changes. I would e-mail CA with the save attached so they can fix it.

[apw2]

Another suggestion would be an audio improvement. Sometimes I hear the soldiers cry "For china!". However, it really sounds like they are screaming "Vagina!".

[BreadBuax]

Sun Jian’s mercenary mechanics is pretty interesting, it should be expanded to all border warlords. Instead of being simply recruiting ethnic units, they could get a full retinue of units+generals.
YuanShao and Gongsun Zan gets Wuhuan/Xianbei mercenaries, Southern Warlords gets Barbarian and bandit mercenaries etc, would be even better if they are region specific, resource building(like horses) might be eligible for this?

[SargonTheDude]

I'd also say making there be fewer women in the recruitment pool would be nice, if you can't just lock them from being generals in the first place.
Maybe a very rare hidden trait to allow for it.

[Spitfire -WONDERBOLT!]

I'd also say making there be fewer women in the recruitment pool would be nice, if you can't just lock them from being generals in the first place.
Maybe a very rare hidden trait to allow for it.

Nice name. Would never has guessed that's what you would have been posting about.

[SargonTheDude]

Nice name. Would never has guessed that's what you would have been posting about.

This is an era where the so called paragon of virtue, Liu Bei, said that women were like clothes. Meant to be worn and discarded at will. His sworn brother, Zhang Fei was a rapist, and Guan Yu was a rapist enabler. (These are our "Heroes")
Outside of Wu, women were seen as property, unworthy of council or merit. And Wu, at the time, were basically considered Barbarians by the rest of China.

This is not Rome II, and we are not playing as a Germanic Faction.
I apologize if historical realism isn't something you care about, but I find this historical revisionism outright insulting to Chinese women and their long history of struggle and suffering.

PS: I named myself after the actual conqueror from history. Carl wasn't even relevant back in 2013. Hell I doubt he was even making videos in 2013.

[WakelessREX]

I have an overhaul and battle realism mod that covers some of the things you are worried about. Though weirdly you didnt mention anything about the arcadey as ever tactical gameplay. Just campaign stuff.

i do agree with spitfire though, that is a funny coincidence for the name and your belated post about women XD

Im sure more mods will arrive that do more of what youd like.

[Intranetusa]

This is an era where the so called paragon of virtue, Liu Bei, said that women were like clothes. Meant to be worn and discarded at will. His sworn brother, Zhang Fei was a rapist, and Guan Yu was a rapist enabler. (These are our "Heroes")
Outside of Wu, women were seen as property, unworthy of council or merit. And Wu, at the time, were basically considered Barbarians by the rest of China.

1) You're confusing some events from the 14th century historical novel with events from actual history. Liu Bei said 'brothers are like limbs and women are like clothes' in the 14th century novel, not in the historical record. Liu Bei is also portrayed as looking like a gorilla with ear lobes hanging to his shoulders and with arms hanging to his knees in the novel. Yes, Zhang Fei is a bad person, but even the 14th century novel portrays him with massive character flaws, as he ends up getting murdered by the soldiers he abused.

2) Your claim that women were only seen as property is historically incorrect. Matrilocal marriages existed during the Han Dynasty and women could inherit and own property. Women, even lower class women, were taxed during the Han Dynasty because they were able to own and manage property. Women had a lower social status than men, but they were not treated as property like "chattel slaves."

3) The Wu state itself was exactly not considered "barbarian" by the rest of China, but rather they ruled over underdeveloped territory that was considered poor and backwaters and they had various rebellious tribes under their rule.

4) Your claim that only Wu had respect for women is incorrect. In the historical records (if we remove all the females created/exaggerated by the novel), Wang Yi of the kingdom of Wei and Lady Huang (Kong Ming's wife) of the kingdom of Shu-Han both served as advisers and military councils, and the former even fought as a commander on the battlefield. Wang Yi was not only a battlefield commander, but she personally fought by defending a city with a bow and arrow.

Xun Guan was another female battlefield commander of the Jin Dynasty, but she was born near the end of the Three Kingdoms era.

This is not Rome II, and we are not playing as a Germanic Faction.
I apologize if historical realism isn't something you care about, but I find this historical revisionism outright insulting to Chinese women and their long history of struggle and suffering.
PS: I named myself after the actual conqueror from history. Carl wasn't even relevant back in 2013. Hell I doubt he was even making videos in 2013.

1) Yes, this is Rome 2 all over again, but it's not that big of a deal. CA or mods can just reduce the spawn rate for female leaders in the Records mode while leaving it as is in the Romance mode.

2) As for caring about the suffering of Chinese women, you should do more research into Chinese history more to avoid making historically inaccurate claims.
The suffering of Chinese women certainly did happen, but it was not unique because pretty much almost all women in the pre-modern societies were treated poorly or as second class citizens. We should acknowledge that females were treated as second class citizens, but we shouldn't exaggerate things either.

3) If we care about historical realism, we'd care much more about the grossly anachronistic and fantasy weapons and armors and fictional units in the game. Those are far more important issues dealing with historical realism then female spawn rates.

[SargonTheDude]

1) You're confusing some events from the 14th century historical novel with events from actual history. Liu Bei said 'brothers are like limbs and women are like clothes' in the 14th century novel, not in the historical record. Liu Bei is also portrayed as looking like a gorilla with ear lobes hanging to his shoulders and with arms hanging to his knees in the novel. Yes, Zhang Fei is a bad person, but even the 14th century novel portrays him with massive character flaws, as he ends up getting murdered by the soldiers he abused.

2) Your claim that women were only seen as property is historically incorrect. Matrilocal marriages existed during the Han Dynasty and women could inherit and own property. Women, even lower class women, were taxed during the Han Dynasty because they were able to own and manage property. Women had a lower social status than men, but they were not treated as property like "chattel slaves."

3) The Wu state itself was exactly not considered "barbarian" by the rest of China, but rather they ruled over underdeveloped territory that was considered poor and backwaters and they had various rebellious tribes under their rule.

4) Your claim that only Wu had respect for women is incorrect. In the historical records (if we remove all the females created/exaggerated by the novel), Wang Yi of the kingdom of Wei and Lady Huang (Kong Ming's wife) of the kingdom of Shu-Han both served as advisers and military councils, and the former even fought as a commander on the battlefield. Wang Yi was not only a battlefield commander, but she personally fought by defending a city with a bow and arrow.

Xun Guan was another female battlefield commander of the Jin Dynasty, but she was born near the end of the Three Kingdoms era.



1) Yes, this is Rome 2 all over again, but it's not that big of a deal. CA or mods can just reduce the spawn rate for female leaders in the Records mode while leaving it as is in the Romance mode.

2) As for caring about the suffering of Chinese women, you should do more research into Chinese history more to avoid making historically inaccurate claims.
The suffering of Chinese women certainly did happen, but it was not unique because pretty much almost all women in the pre-modern societies were treated poorly or as second class citizens. We should acknowledge that females were treated as second class citizens, but we shouldn't exaggerate things either.

3) If we care about historical realism, we'd care much more about the grossly anachronistic and fantasy weapons and armors and fictional units in the game. Those are far more important issues dealing with historical realism then female spawn rates.

On the Liu Bei quote, Romance, women as property, and sexism during the Han.

Most of my knowledge about the era comes from my disgruntled Chinese friend's ramblings, and the status of women is one of the things he's talked to me at length about. From my recollection things weren't that bad during the Han dynasty proper for women. There were many legal protections, etc. However during the course of this Three Kingdoms period, and carrying into later Chinese dynasties was a increasing limitation on women and their prestige in society.
Fair enough, Romance was written long after the fact, but it's impressions on the populace speak of the conceptions of the time. Now, once again, to be fair, things got worse for women as time went on, so it's not as fair as the Records source.

As for women as property... It's quite telling to me that we only ever hear of these women as Lady X in historical records. It's also quite telling to me that the Han Dynasty's capital punishment solution for rape was dropped like a bad habit during the three kingdoms period and just prior. Going back to that old point, from my understanding, all of those various boons for women during the Han were increasingly burned out during this particular era and the strife leading up to it.

PS: I never used the term Chattle for the women. There's plenty kinds of property, even slavery, that isn't Chattel in variety or feel. But when you and all of your kids can be wiped out due to that weird generational slaughter rule, all because the man of the house slipped up... IDK, I'd probably start to feel a bit like property to the men of the household.

PPS: I was using "Barbarian" in the more conventional sense of highly looked down upon, or not fully civilized, rather than the Chinese translation of the word which more closely resembles alien/foreigner/xeno.

On my actual reason for bringing up Germanic Peoples, Wu as being abnormal/Q about Lady Huang.

Mypurpose for bringing up Rome II and the Germans in particular, was to point out an ur example of a culture that wouldn't be out of place having this high a spawn rate for female leaders.
From early musings from Gaius Julius, to the works of Tacitus, to Christian recounting of the Germanic Pagan Norse, women were highly revered in ancient Germanic Cultures.
The Celts my get the "good for women" wrap due to the Insular Celts, but even lowly women in Germanic society held authority over their home as they were considered a family/clan/tribes spiritual mediators with the gods. A chief could go to war, and a woman could put an end to it. Women were the ones who were sent to hash out peace terms. Women held supreme religious authority. Women could easily break away from their husbands, under favorable terms for them... As such I brought them up to say; hey, it's not like We're playing the Suebi anymore.

Also, this kinda feeds into your second part 2... No... Not all women in pre modern societies had it rough. Certainly in more memorable and "Civilized" ones such as those of the Middle East, Mediterranean, and East/South Asia did. However, I know in many Polynesian societies, most Pre-Christian Northern Europeans, West Africans, East Coast North Americans, many Steppe peoples, etc, had fairly equal footing with men.
My personal theory is that the more "civilized" places had the highest emphasis on agriculture, hard labor, and had much larger populations, thus artificially inflating the male role's importance while also decreasing the female role's influence.

Now as for why I had said Wu was stand out in China, it largely had to do not merely by their presence but their influence. Thus leading me to want clarification about Lady Huang. Since, from what I've been told, she wasn't a heavy presence at court like Lady Wu was. Again, going back to what little I do know. Women like Lady Huang, or Wang Yi, weren't as influential or prominent as their Wu counterparts.

On historically accurate units/weapons.

As I said at the end of my OP;
PS: I can't wait for a historical mod, but that's too big for the scope of this entry. So for any of those wanting to do so. I am fully in support, and while I don't know a lot about historical accuracy in that Era. I have a friend passionate about Records over Romance, speaks/reads Chinese, *is* Chinese, might be able to talk him in to helping in terms of research.

While I agree that historically accurate units is very important, maybe even more important than all the rest. It's far harder to completely retexture, rearm, and restat every unit in the game than it is to lower female leader spawn rate, or any of the other suggestions I've made in this thread. At least, as far as I'm aware it is. As such, I don't think this is a fair point to make considering the premise of this thread.

On whether any of this really effects my arching points.

We both seem to be in agreement that the spawn rate is absurd for Records mode, and is unrealistic. Considering what you've said, you probably also think my rare hidden trait solution to allow for some female generals is a good idea. So... Apart from corrections, I think we can agree the point still stands. Correct?
That said, thank you for the added info dump.