Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

[Muizer]

Hmm, now I'm hearing too much sympathy for the West tbh. From the beginning the Soviet Union had good reasons not to trust the West. In the early 20th century already, the Western political and industrial upper class were prepared to go to great lengths to suppress grassroots socialism spreading. Whichever way you turn it, Russia's first attempt to emerge from abismal poverty and inequality and establish a government by the common people was treated as a plague in need of exterminating. Fascism and Nazism could in many quarters count on more sympathy for being less dangerous to the interests of the upper class. What I am saying is that it is not right to erase that part of history and present the Soviet union as nothing but a tyrannical military super power. The west never gave soviets good reason to think they didn't need to be distrustful and reliant on its own military capacity. For today, it is interesting how the Russian people's greatest achievements are intertwined not just with this image of self-reliant defiance but also with the dark side of tyranny that did of course develop along side it (no better way to create a tyranny than the threat of extermination, real or imagined). But the west has its own demons to face, mostly of shoring up the interests of the rich and powerful, if need be with brutal force, under the bannder of freedom and democracy, and I don't think it is right to criticize Russia for its failings without facing our own.

[Diocle]

I think the point is that in Europe nobody has ever trusted anyone else: reciprocal hate and suspect is the real glue of the European sub-continent.

Catholics against Protestants, Luterans against Calvinists, British against French, French against Germans, Germans against everybody else; East against West, North against South, different languages in permanet conflict, divergent interests, divergent political cultures, divergent civilizations, divergent traditions, this was and is Europe, this is why it's the magnificent mosaic we know today. In this crazy mosaic, Russians have played like everybody else: to stay alive.

[Cookiegod]

Exactly. In 19-early 20 century there were this romanticized idea about distant Russia. The glorious empire of Russia. Finally great state for us slavs especially as we were used to be under goverment of others like Habsburgs. And there were many authors calling for actively joining with Russia creating some kind pan-slovan state. Russians were saviors from Napoleon as well as offering bright future for workers during red revolution. And of course they were saviors from Hitler. But in all of this, this was the romanticized idea usually without direct experience. After WW1 Legionnaries came home with knowledge, what was the Reds vs Whites civil War, how we slovans behave between ourselves. After WW2 many saw how Red army behave but it was only after WW2 that all got the bad experience with what does it actually mean to be under Russian rule. After all, we czechs got from WW2 in quite "good shape". Just 350,000 dead and we were marked for future movement to the east or to be removed but that luckily didn´t happen. So it was from Munich for us just 7 years. Compare it with 40 years of labour under Soviets.. But that is past now. Problem is, Russia was used to compete with other power block - USA/EU. After 1990 we got opportunity to join the EU and basically was offered vision of united EU without war. But due to internal problems after collapse of Soviet union, what was left to Russia? There is no future vision, just dreams of past even fall of Soviet union is failure of long term vision. They cannot join EU wihtout having main word..It is really about not being able to accept own failures? Once more I will rely upon discussion with my russian flat mate. "In russia,there is the feeling of nothing being worth pursuing. Everyone with some money try to get away. To actually live. In russia, there is no future only bittersweet feeling of failure. And people are not used to cope with failures, they were taught to point fingers. Sentence those "guilty" and then forget in glass of vodka.."

I´m not expert on russia but I see it as big failure of russia. Inability to offer bright future. States were in union only due to threat of strenght. And now? EU is not perfect but it is somewhat working, no surprise that even closest states to Russia itself like Ukraine, baltic states are looking that way. So Russia turned to only thing they got left, meddling, KGB methods ...shortly reppresion. Seeding discord, problems. That´s the problem with russia as I wrote before. You cannot deal with them fairly as they would try to gain influence from any trade, dealing, negotiation. And because Putin has not many card left, he has to play nationalistic one, war and constant danger from all around.

EDIT: Basically I´m not surprised at all. After 100 years of self sacrifice and loses in the name of glorious future, nothing came of it. Soviet union collapse and this is still being echoed till present day. I don´t mean it in any bad way but can you imagine those multiple generation living under Cheka/NKVD/KGB. And we can just feel it. Answer to the OP question is lying in the heart of russia itself...

1: Your mentions in the beginning about Russia having been romanticised exactly prove my point: The claim that Europe never trusted Russia is false. It's a distortion of history.

2: You're far too obsessed about the Czech legion, and it's a weird basis to build a hatred of an entire country on.

3: You cannot compare the Soviet occupation with the German one, and the Soviets did restore the Czechoslovak borders, which none of your neighbours had respected. Not Germany+Austria, not Poland, and not Hungary. Czechoslovakia was, albeit part of the Warszaw pact, still its own country.
The equation of Russia = Soviet Union is also simply false. Firstly because you seem to claim that it were mostly Russians suppressing others, when it were the Russians that were mostly clamped down upon.
A member of my family did go to GuLaG for no reason whatsoever; my grandfather was quasi-orphaned and unable to see his family. What happened to his parents after he had to split at the age of 12 in order to survive, I do not know. My grandmothers earliest childmemory were walking barefoot on the fields after the harvest, to pick up any grains of wheat farmers & birds might've missed. You can imagine that hurt a lot. Her crime? She was the daughter of a professor, and thus the member of a class that was deliberately starved to death at that time. Or her memory of how a red army officer took an apple out of her starving hands she had taken from the ground, and him throwing it into the dirt again and trampling on it.
Keep in mind Stalin was a Georgian, and in those early years only 3 out of 20+ commissars ruling the country were actually ethnically Russians. The rest were of other ethnicities. As the Russians gradually took over, conditions became better. Not to mention we have to thank the German Kaiserreich for creating the Soviet Union in the first place.

So yeah, tell me more about how evil those Russians are.

Speaking of minorities: Russia has over a hundred different languages and more official languages than the entire EU. The Czech language meanwhile had to be resurrected from the dead because of the Habsburgs, and France is still doing ignoring the European statute on language preservation. Hence a huge part of its linguistic and cultural DNA (e.g. Occitan, Provencal & Alsacian), that made the places into what they are now and defined who the people living there are, are being systematically eradicated by the French government.
Want an even more extreme example? Then compare how the Ainu culture and language were treated by Russia & Japan. Japan only recognised Ainu as part of their country about a month ago or so, even though a large majority of that people lived/lives in their country, and only a minority was/is under Russian rule.

So again: Tell me how evil those Russians are.

[Daruwind]

1: Your mentions in the beginning about Russia having been romanticised exactly prove my point: The claim that Europe never trusted Russia is false. It's a distortion of history.

Firstly. It was mostly some book authors in 19 century. For example Karel Havlicek Borovsky ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_..._Borovsk%C3%BD ) And it was result of being part of Habsburg monarch. Because czechs wanted more culture identity, own history, language, state. For example after battle of white mountain, Bohemia was heavily catholized because you know what happened when czechs were prottestants? Hussites. We kicked a few crusades off Bohemia...Anyway. Intellectuals were trying to create nation identity because there was always heavy influence of germans and others. And one branch was the new idea of pan-slavism. Reason why we were looking on Russia was because it was only independent big state of "slavs". But keep in mind that very few people had ANY actual experience with Russia at all. Of course we ditched the idea of pan-slavism and started to focus more on our own state. Which culminated after WW1 and breakup of Austria-Hungary.

2: You're far too obsessed about the Czech legion, and it's a weird basis to build a hatred of an entire country on.

Not really. But for us czech the Legions and RAF pilots during WW2 (and others...czechs in Tobruk or even in Russia) are the groups we are most proud of. And do you know what happened to majority of RAF pilots, basically all soldiers fighting in west, all former legionnares? They had trials and were sent to urannium mining facilities to die. Communists were persecuting their families, children were unable to study, they were offered only the lowest possible jobs...just because they fight in the west.

EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_Janou%C5%A1ek
Karel Janoušek....Legion, RAF..he was Air Marshal...arrest, trial, imprisonment..There were thousand such stories. But not all have page on wikipedia... ;-)

But that is only explanation. Go to my previous post. I don´t hate Russia or russians.

I have a few friends even among Russian guys. Don´t get me wrong. My flatmate is from Russia

So stop putting words into my mouth. I don´t hate Russia, I pity them for their history and leaders and I´m just careful about them. That´s it.

3: You cannot compare the Soviet occupation with the German one, and the Soviets did restore the Czechoslovak borders, which none of your neighbours had respected. Not Germany+Austria, not Poland, and not Hungary. Czechoslovakia was, albeit part of the Warszaw pact, still its own country.

I can and I will. I already said that during WW2 many died but if we look at % of population as victims, we were quite lucky. But the same we cannot say about communism. We lost 40 years because of it. Because Stalin came as savior just to turned into another monster. There were so many dead people at borders, so many wasted lifes. Only reason why it looks mildly is because the regime had such large variety of tools how to make your life sucks. And they used them a lot. Plus how do you compare war damage to three generation long slow twisting of our spirit and everything? Yeah, your stories are way worse I cannot even imagine living on Ukraine from WW1 - hladomor - WW2 - communism....MAybe we were the most liberal/westernize country in Soviet union. It sucked only for 40 years but it was still pointless hell. Just one note, Stalin plundered our economy for urannium and other stuff, which were for almost free transported back to Russia.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[quote]The equation of Russia = Soviet Union is also simply false. Firstly because you seem to claim that it were mostly Russians suppressing others, when it were the Russians that were mostly clamped down upon.
A member of my family did go to GuLaG for no reason whatsoever; my grandfather was quasi-orphaned and unable to see his family. What happened to his parents after he had to split at the age of 12 in order to survive, I do not know. My grandmothers earliest childmemory were walking barefoot on the fields after the harvest, to pick up any grains of wheat farmers & birds might've missed. You can imagine that hurt a lot. Her crime? She was the daughter of a professor, and thus the member of a class that was deliberately starved to death at that time. Or her memory of how a red army officer took an apple out of her starving hands she had taken from the ground, and him throwing it into the dirt again and trampling on it.
Keep in mind Stalin was a Georgian, and in those early years only 3 out of 20+ commissars ruling the country were actually ethnically Russians. The rest were of other ethnicities. As the Russians gradually took over, conditions became better. Not to mention we have to thank the German Kaiserreich for creating the Soviet Union in the first place.

So yeah, tell me more about how evil those Russians are.

See, if you know how those in power were behaving, why do you think it was so different in our country?

Speaking of minorities: Russia has over a hundred different languages and more official languages than the entire EU. The Czech language meanwhile had to be resurrected from the dead because of the Habsburgs, and France is still doing ignoring the European statute on language preservation. Hence a huge part of its linguistic and cultural DNA (e.g. Occitan, Provencal & Alsacian), that made the places into what they are now and defined who the people living there are, are being systematically eradicated by the French government.
Want an even more extreme example? Then compare how the Ainu culture and language were treated by Russia & Japan. Japan only recognised Ainu as part of their country about a month ago or so, even though a large majority of that people lived/lives in their country, and only a minority was/is under Russian rule.

So again: Tell me how evil those Russians are.

And point of that? That we are small country without influence? But we are free and independent. Go, take care about those others groups without state. ;-) And next time we will kick russia in ice hockey once more. If anything this point proves that we are capable of staying alive between all superpowers.

tl dr; Czech experience with russia in the last century is almost as crappy as is the Polish one. It is not hatred in our case, we just learned hard way that russian words are worthless (speaking only about those in power, not common people).

[hellheaven1987]

Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

And we can ask same question to Russian, why hasn't Russia ever trusted Europe?

But all those are meaningless question because what Russia wants is never the trust of Europe, what it always wants since Peter the Great is respect of equality from Europe. Not be viewed as some dull peasants like how Europe viewed Prussian in 18th Century but as a well-educated, good-manner gentlemen like you British, French or German. Yet it seems Russian culture has somesore of mental defections that results Russia can only understand harsh words and brutal force when communicating with other international members, which, unsurprisingly, its peasant behaviors means the rest of world continue viewing Russia as a peasant state and piss Russians ever since.

[REhorror]

Because of geopolitics.

Russia is something like the United States of America, i.e. a multi-national empire that want control of more land or more puppet states in Europe.

Meanwhile, the West is controlled by the USA who also wants global domination, Europe included.

Until Europe wakes up and start having its own voice, the West cannot trust Russia or vice versa because both of them want them the same thing.

[Daruwind]

Ye but USA are dominating through culture and soft powers. Coca Cola and McDonald, Holywood, Music.....Soviets biggest failure is their dream was lie while american dream is also not perfect but it was way more appeling to people. Why there were walls and people with guns at iron curtain? Because people were running to the west, nobody to the east. And now it is still very similar. I know people who are trying to earn money in Russia, I know a few who got money and run away as quickly as possible...who can,is studying/living in the west...

[Abdülmecid I]

As well as sheer violence, from napalms to former German collaborators, which were enforced upon a noteworthy variety of countries, including at least one European sovereign state. I'm not denying that Western Europe (but not the rest of the anticommunist camp) was remarkably more stable, thanks to the fact that she was immensely wealthier, due to historical reasons and the fact that the material and human resources of the United States and their allies were minimally affected, in comparison to those of the Soviet Union. However, portraying the Cold War in such simplistic terms is inaccurate, misleading and usually a product of the obviously biased "official ideology", as it has been shaped since the early '90s. The Soviet Union, mainly because of its weaker status, was mainly on the defensive and obliged to rely on untrustworthy allies, as many of them, from Yugoslavia and Egypt to Albania and Romania opportunistically abandoned her to pursue their own goals.

As it has been mentioned already, it was the Soviet Union that was invaded by Europe repeatedly, not the opposite, while all the major players in the Atlantic team, France, Great Britain and America did not hesitate to militarily intervene against the newborn Republic in several fronts, from Siberia to the Black Sea. Even the notorious Warsaw Pact was created as a reaction to the supposedly defensive organisation of NATO, while the Soviet leadership even futilely suggested that both coalitions be dissolved for mutual benefit. Kremlin is neither a peaceful dove nor the evil caricature of the European common perception. In what concerns the Czech example specifically, again the relations are more nuanced. The Czechoslovak legion was not exactly innocent in the affair (I'd say that both sides are equally responsible) and its members, instead of being sent immediately to Europe, actually agreed to participate in the conflict, aiding, in the process, the most reactionary and bloodthirsty warlords of the monarchists. Moreover, the Soviet Union was the only major power that maintained a graceful position in the Munich debacle, as she tried to protect the territorial integrity of the Czechoslovak state (Stalin was royally mad at the result of the conference), despite Prague's second ally, France, embarassingly accepting Hitler's proposals. This is something that, in my opinion, should not be forgotten, especially in times where the favourite tactic of ambitious politicians is to blame a convenient foreign scapegoat for the country's ills.

[REhorror]

The Soviet was violent and overt in their conquest, the USA was more subversive, but in the end the USA wins out because subversion cuts deep.

Both are crap, the Soviet is gone but Russia is trying to recreate it, but when will the USA be gone?

Either ways, this will not stop until Europe gets it together and have a regime that can stand on its own. It can be said that all the war since the 19th century is about stopping this, with the proto-world war against the formation of the Napoleon's French empire, to WW1 with the suppression of the 2nd Reich and the WW2 with the 3rd Reich. Both USA & Russia fear an independent Europe.

[Sir Adrian]

Yeah, about the Czechs... I forgot to mention: Why do you think so many countries across Eastern Europe have the Russian colour stripes? Because of Panslavism. Saying that Russia wasn't trusted by Europe is a bit of an overstatement.

Those are not the traditional russian colours, those are the traditional slavic colours. Just like blue red and yellow are the traditional colors of eastern romance peoples or red black green are the traditional colors of africa and red white black are the traditional colors of arabia.

There is a huge difference. It has absolutely nothing to do with Russia. In fact most slavic countries adopted the colors long before panslavism was even a thing.

[Aexodus]

Yeah just because many Arab nationalist countries have red white black doesn’t necessarily indicate pan-Arabianism

[Cope]

Hmm, now I'm hearing too much sympathy for the West tbh. From the beginning the Soviet Union had good reasons not to trust the West. In the early 20th century already, the Western political and industrial upper class were prepared to go to great lengths to suppress grassroots socialism spreading. Whichever way you turn it, Russia's first attempt to emerge from abismal poverty and inequality and establish a government by the common people was treated as a plague in need of exterminating. Fascism and Nazism could in many quarters count on more sympathy for being less dangerous to the interests of the upper class. What I am saying is that it is not right to erase that part of history and present the Soviet union as nothing but a tyrannical military super power. The west never gave soviets good reason to think they didn't need to be distrustful and reliant on its own military capacity. For today, it is interesting how the Russian people's greatest achievements are intertwined not just with this image of self-reliant defiance but also with the dark side of tyranny that did of course develop along side it (no better way to create a tyranny than the threat of extermination, real or imagined). But the west has its own demons to face, mostly of shoring up the interests of the rich and powerful, if need be with brutal force, under the bannder of freedom and democracy, and I don't think it is right to criticize Russia for its failings without facing our own.

Russia's "first attempt" to "establish a government by the common people" was the Provisional Government, not the October Revolution. The Bolsheviks, aided and abetted by Berlin, hijacked the collapse of Tsarism and suffocated Russian democracy in its infancy.

[Cookiegod]

Those are not the traditional russian colours, those are the traditional slavic colours. Just like blue red and yellow are the traditional colors of eastern romance peoples or red black green are the traditional colors of africa and red white black are the traditional colors of arabia.

There is a huge difference. It has absolutely nothing to do with Russia. In fact most slavic countries adopted the colors long before panslavism was even a thing.

lol.
Googling is hard. So let me just wildly invent stuff and pass it off as fact, even though nothing in it is true:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Slavic_colors

The Pan-Slavic colors (or colours) — red, blue and white — were defined by the Prague Slavic Congress, 1848, based on the flag of Russia, which was introduced in the late 17th century. [...] Historically, many Slavic nations and states adopted flags and other national symbols that used some combination of those three colors. List of Slavic countries that use or have used the colors include: Russia, Yugoslavia,[2] Czechoslovakia,[3] Czech Republic,[3] Montenegro, Slovakia,[4] Croatia,[4] Serbia[4] and Slovenia.

Flags mostly weren't a "traditional" thing before the modern era. There are a few exceptions, but hilariously, your other two examples (Africa & Arabia) aren't among those. They too were made with a multinational identity in mind.

But most importantly this thread is giving me mental hemorrhoids, so I'm going to scutter off again.
For those here who actually do want an answer to what the original post actually asked (why wasn't Russia trusted even BEFORE COMMUNISM!), I gave a pretty thorough rundown why that wasn't the case and what the relations between Russia and various countries were like in post #11.

[Heathen Hammer]

I think the point is that in Europe nobody has ever trusted anyone else: reciprocal hate and suspect is the real glue of the European sub-continent.

Catholics against Protestants, Luterans against Calvinists, British against French, French against Germans, Germans against everybody else; East against West, North against South, different languages in permanet conflict, divergent interests, divergent political cultures, divergent civilizations, divergent traditions, this was and is Europe, this is why it's the magnificent mosaic we know today. In this crazy mosaic, Russians have played like everybody else: to stay alive.

Pretty much this. the only reason Russia is being singled out is because it is a convenient excuse for a boogeyman to scare your people into voting for the corrupt establishment, which is vowing to save everyone from the imaginary threat. Historically speaking Russia didn't really stand out from other European powers at its time, and USSR wasn't really a "Russian" state to begin with, so Eastern European grudge against Russia for Soviet occupation is misguided at best.

[Cookiegod]

Pretty much this. the only reason Russia is being singled out is because it is a convenient excuse for a boogeyman to scare your people into voting for the corrupt establishment, which is vowing to save everyone from the imaginary threat. Historically speaking Russia didn't really stand out from other European powers at its time, and USSR wasn't really a "Russian" state to begin with, so Eastern European grudge against Russia for Soviet occupation is misguided at best.

Exactly, and the USSR was even less than "not really a 'Russian' state" - it was decidedly and explicitly anti-Russian in the beginning.

One only has to ask Lenin about his feelings towards Russians & Russia, there's a treasure grove right there. Or look at the Soviet policies that only saw a slight change once Stalin won the power struggle, and a stronger change once he needed the people to survive ww2, etc. etc.

[Daruwind]

Current problem is not what was agenda or goal in 1920´ or what Lenin or Stalin thought in those days or who was calling shots. Problem is Putin and others looking back and dreaming about it...Of course this time the tsar, the god the ruler would be Putin not some pesky iron man from Georgia..

Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century. As for the Russian nation, it became a genuine drama. Tens of millions of our co-citizens and compatriots found themselves outside Russian territory. Moreover, the epidemic of disintegration infected Russia itself.

First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.

And I have no problems with saying russians were NOT solely responsible for crimes of Soviet Union. However if current Russia is trying to reforge this empire under Russia as leader. That is somewhat worrying us..;-)

[Abdülmecid I]

This sounds like scare-mongering, Daruwind. Russia attempting to restore the USSR reminds of the Balkan paranoia over Erdoğan supposedly aiming to recreate the Ottoman Empire. Is there any actual indication that the Russian government is influenced by such ridiculous illusions of grandeur, apart from empty rhetoric pandering at nationalism? I don't think so, and, even if it did, Russian foreign policy is not determined by the emotions of the Federation's President. Neither Ukraine nor Georgia can be considered as a serious threat against Poland, the Czech Republic or even the Baltic countries, as, in both wars, Kremlin aimed at maintaining its sphere of influence across neighboring countries, which lacked any serious diplomatic alliances. Blaming Russia for expansionism is irrational, as the country lacks the means to achieve any substantial attack against NATO's interests. Since the disintegration of the Soviet Union, Kremlin's sphere of influence continuously decreases, while the geopolitical tensions in 2008 and 2014, mark a probably temporary stop for that trend, as Russia, after Yeltin's retirement, has managed to recover a small portion of her former power. Putin's designation as an omnipotent absolute monarch domestically and a bloodthirsty warlord internationally is more a product of biased media's caricature than an accurate representation of his hold on power, as well as the objectives of his foreign policy agenda.

[Cookiegod]

However if current Russia is trying to reforge this empire under Russia as leader. That is somewhat worrying us..;-)

Anyone with the slightest understanding of geopolitics knows that it doesn't work that way, nor is Russia anywhere near such a position where it could achieve such a goal. It's like assuming Italy was going for the Roman Empire. That assumption is so irrational, but then again: Phobias rarely are - no need to discuss it and thankfully, 21st century geopolitics and Putin were never the topic of this thread. The fact that you have to keep talking about that and can't keep the topics separated proves my point though.

[Daruwind]

You are guys very right that Russia is lacking enough military for any full scale conquering war. But keep in mind that after both Russo-Georgian War and Crymea, Russia overtook control of some regions. Now I´m not saying I fear for another invasion into Poland/Czech rep. but being for example Baltic States might fear of another operation of men in green without uniforms...simply any region with russian heavy population.

On other hand I can just state report year after year from czech security service
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securi...mation_Service
Year after year there is long statement about russian hybrid threat, I can provide czech source, sadly BIS is not providing any english materials...reading that, russia is security threat and for example there they are warning against letting russia expanding our nuclear power plants..
https://www.bis.cz/vyrocni-zpravy/
it is not that i´m not understand what you are writing,I simply choose to believe my own state security agency.

And to be fair, I´m not even afraid of Putin as person,he is not another Hitler or anybody. I´m afraid of nationalism and focus on military, which are clearly cards Putin is using to keep high popularity. Combine it with long term economic struggle, there might be another peaceful annexation down the road to keep things rolling... ;-) I´m not fearing USA as what was the last time USA annex any land? Or rise in Italy eventhough current extremistic goverment will be pain in ass for EU. Because it is simply, Italy as well haven´t waged any wars in recent history or annexed anything. Russia did...You cannot change that fact. Pair it with last hundred year of experience with Russia. That´s basically answer to OP question..

[Cookiegod]

The accession of crimea in 2014 answers the OP about why "Europe" didn't trust Russia pre 1917?!
Hm. Hmmm...Hmmmmmmmm... Nope. Still can't figure that one out.