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Thread: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

  1. #81
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    The US wasn't even transparent towards the victims of their nuclear experiments. Nor are they today with e.g. that dome in the Pacific leaking radioactive materials.
    UN: Gonna do something about it?
    US: Nah...

    The French, Japanese, etc. don't fare any better either.
    Actually its not clear that it is leaking, just that it would appear to be degrading. On balance the same kind of issue that occurred in Nevada and at Hanford (and no doubt in Russia well) the casual early cold war decision kinda just ignore the consequences of getting arsenals in place and working. Although it might have been cultural dislocating The US probably should just provide substantial individual settlements and move the islanders to the US or a safer island territory like Guam or Samoa (with some kind of stipend and job training if they need it). But of course nothing like that under Trump.

    I mean Hanford would not the permanent mess it is now if the site were built today. I was kinda knocking the USSR for still using something of a early cold war mindset in a different era.
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  2. #82

    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    It's actually pretty clear that it's leaking, according to various measurements taken in the surrounding area. Plus it was never meant to be a permanent solution, except they didn't bother to follow up on it.
    And again the obvious diplomat-talk and the intransparency muddling it all.

    And yeah without knowing for sure I'm pretty confident the Russians are doing the same . Point being though that there is no transparency to be expected in any country related to nuclear power.

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  3. #83
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    I just love how the earnest defenders of Russia chose to simply ignore the coming out of Moldova.
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  4. #84
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ˇAy Carmela!
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    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    The problem is that you can't really scrutinise the information of an article, whose language you can't understand. I am also very skeptical about the impartiality of sources originating from a country, which historically fought with Russia for the control of Moldavia, with rather harsh consequences for the Moldavian society. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that your narrative is directly contradicted even by Washington-funded media, specifically destined to antagonise Kremlin. For example, you can check the difference between your comment about "massive vote fraud" and the way Radio Free Europe describes the 2016 presidential elections. What I found most interesting is how you used the alleged interference of the Russian government in Moldavian domestic politics to call for the collective punishment of the Russian people and the dismemberment of the Russian Federation against the will of its people. This aggressive rhetoric is why I suspect that anti-Russia sentiment is fuelled more by chauvinism and old, nationalist disputes than a sincere concern over Putin's foreign policy.

  5. #85
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    The problem is that you can't really scrutinise the information of an article, whose language you can't understand. I am also very skeptical about the impartiality of sources originating from a country, which historically fought with Russia for the control of Moldavia, with rather harsh consequences for the Moldavian society. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that your narrative is directly contradicted even by Washington-funded media, specifically destined to antagonise Kremlin. For example, you can check the difference between your comment about "massive vote fraud" and the way Radio Free Europe describes the 2016 presidential elections. What I found most interesting is how you used the alleged interference of the Russian government in Moldavian domestic politics to call for the collective punishment of the Russian people and the dismemberment of the Russian Federation against the will of its people. This aggressive rhetoric is why I suspect that anti-Russia sentiment is fuelled more by chauvinism and old, nationalist disputes than a sincere concern over Putin's foreign policy.
    This.

    News from the evil, new czarist Russian Empire:

    On Tuesday, Russian Interior Minister Vladimir Kolokoltsev announced that all charges against investigative journalist Ivan Golunov had been dropped, and that the officers who arrested him last week on drug charges had been suspended. "Today he will be released from house arrest and charges lifted," said Kolokoltsev, who added, "I believe that the rights of every citizen, regardless of profession, must be protected."
    Request for dismissal of officers
    Concerning disciplinary action, Kolokoltsev announced, "I have decided to request the Russian president dismiss the police chief for western Moscow, Major-General Andrei Puchkov, and the head of the Moscow police department for narcotics control, Major-General Yury Devyatkin."
    Golunov, who works for the independent website Meduza and is known for exposing local corruption, was arrested in Moscow last Thursday for dealing drugs.


    https://www.dw.com/en/russia-drops-c...ers/a-49139676

    Obviously civil society is in Russia still working, we should be critical with every third-party news we get about what threat Russia is.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; June 11, 2019 at 01:36 PM.

  6. #86
    Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Leaked documents reveal Russian effort to exert influence in Africa | The Guardian

    Pretty interesting.

    The graphic gives an overview of “Company” activities and achievements. It claims credit in CAR for getting of rid of politicians who are “orientated to France”, including national assembly representatives and the foreign minister. This appears to be Charles-Armel Doubane, sacked in December. It has “strengthened” the army and set up newspapers and a radio station. Russia is an “83% friend”, it says.

    In Madagascar the new president, Andry Rajoelina, won election with “the Company’s support”, the map says. Russia “produced and distributed the island’s biggest newspaper, with 2 million copies a month”, it adds. Rajoelina denies receiving assistance.

    Another key territory is Sudan. Last year Russian specialists drew up a programme of political and economic reform, designed to keep President Omar al-Bashir in power. It included a plan to smear anti-government protesters, apparently copy-pasted from tactics used at home against the anti-Putin opposition. (One memo mistakenly says “Russia” instead of “Sudan”.)

    One ploy was to use fake news and videos to portray demonstrators in Khartoum and other Sudanese cities as “anti-Islam”, “pro-Israel” and “pro-LGBT”. The government was told to increase the price of newsprint – to make it harder for critics to get their message out – and to discover “foreigners” at anti-government rallies.

    In a leaked letter Prigozhin wrote to Bashir complaining that the president had not actually followed through on the advice. Prigozhin mentioned “lack of activity” by the Sudanese government and its “extremely cautious position”.

    The military deposed Bashir in April in a coup. Last week Sudan’s Rapid Support Forces opened fire on pro-democracy protesters, killing over a hundred. The Russian advisers had urged Sudan’s military council to suppress the activists with “minimal but acceptable loss of life”, one former regime source told CNN.

  7. #87
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Oh prodromos, don't you know. Russia is a country of saints and if criticize it you are not being impartial..

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    The problem is that you can't really scrutinise the information of an article, whose language you can't understand. I am also very skeptical For example, you can check the difference between your comment about "massive vote fraud" and the way Radio Free Europe describes the 2016 presidential elections. What I found most interesting is how you used the alleged interference of the Russian government in Moldavian domestic politics to call for the collective punishment of the Russian people and the dismemberment of the Russian Federation against the will of its people. This aggressive rhetoric is why I suspect that anti-Russia sentiment is fuelled more by chauvinism and old, nationalist disputes than a sincere concern over Putin's foreign policy.
    Google translate is a thing an does a decent job translating from romanian to english, so much so that it takes an act of bad faith to claim the language barrier.

    Here's an article in english https://balkaninsight.com/2019/06/11...funding-claim/


    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    about the impartiality of sources originating from a country, which historically fought with Russia for the control of Moldavia, with rather harsh consequences for the Moldavian society. The problem is further exacerbated by the fact that your narrative is directly contradicted even by Washington-funded media, specifically destined to antagonise Kremlin.


    Thanks, I needed that. I really do hope you were not serious though, as not even Rogozin and Lavrov have ever made such insane revisionist claims. In fact your entire comment reads like a hit piece from sputnik.md


    Meanwhile Dodon has been suspended and is being criminally investigated over the claims made in the tape, which was broadcast on Moldova's 3 largest tv networks.
    Last edited by chriscase; June 11, 2019 at 09:59 PM. Reason: adds nothing
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  8. #88
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    ...

    Meanwhile Dodon has been suspended and is being criminally investigated over the claims made in the tape, which was broadcast on Moldova's 3 largest tv networks.

    ...
    Thats nothing more than fake news from the oligarch Plahotniuc, which has made a "captured state" of Moldova (Quote from the Secretary of the Council of Europe, Mr. Thorbjřrn Jagland).

    Whats really happening:

    Moldova parties form government, despite court rulings

    The courts have stepped in after two blocs signed up to an unprecendented alliance to form a government after inconclusive elections in February. The coalition said it was formed in order to rid Moldova of oligarchy.

    T
    he ex-Soviet state which lies betwen Ukraine and Romania has been in political chaos since the elections in February. A deadline to form a government expired this weekend.
    After months of talks, an unprecedented alliance was finally formed on Saturday between the pro-European ACUM group and pro-Russian Socialist Party of President Igor Dodon. ACUM's Maia Sandu, a former minister and World Bank adviser, was named prime minister on Saturday afternoon.

    "Injustice has come to an end today in Moldova," Sandu said Saturday. "Today begins the process of the purification of Moldova."
    The ACUM-Socialist Party agreement defied the Constitutional Court, which on Friday ordered parliament to be dissolved and fresh elections to be held.
    The court declared all future decisions of the parliament would also be invalid.
    On Sunday, the court accepted a petition from the Democratic Party made on Saturday which challenged the legitimacy of the new government and relieved Dodon from the presidency. It appointed former prime minister Pavel Filip as interim president. Reuters reported he had signed a decree for elections to be held on September 6.

    No majority

    Neither party won a majority of seats in parliamentary elections in February, with ACUM winning 26 and the Socialist Party winning 35 of the assembly's 101 seats.
    Both parties want to keep the Democratic Party, which is led by Vlad Plahotniuc, a powerful oligarch, out of government. The former ruling party won 30 seats in February.
    ACUM and the Socialist Party have accused Plahotniuc of transporting people from the breakaway region of Transnistria to polling stations and telling them to vote for the Democratic Party.

    'Oligarchs' keeping Moldova 'captive'

    On Saturday, both parties passed a parliamentary motion that said "oligarchs" were keeping Moldova "captive."
    "The oligarchs have established a dictatorship driven by manipulation, terror, lies and disinformation. The country is wallowing in corruption," it said.

    The US Embassy said it "supports efforts by Moldova's political parties" to "overcome the ongoing political impasse."

    The Russian Embassy echoed the US, saying it supported "efforts by parliamentary parties to form a functioning coalition."

    https://www.dw.com/en/moldova-partie...ngs/a-49116723

    Meanwhile Germany, France, UK, Poland and Sweden have declared in a statement, that the new elected parliament is the place to solve the current political problems.

    So no russian conspiracy in Moldova instead there is a american, russian and european cooperation to free Moldova from the dictatorship of the oligarch Plahotniuc, who owned the moldovanian constitution court, but has lost the last presidential and general election in February.

    So clearly fake news from the ruling oligarch of Moldova.

    So Settra, you clearly should apologize to Abdul.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; June 11, 2019 at 06:58 PM.

  9. #89
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Well we can spend next ten years pointing fingers and discussing why we are not trusting Russia..but I can ask little differently. Why is any reason why we should trust Russia? What goodwill Russia have done lately to Europe or various countries? Some selfless acts? Examples?

    If Russia is such good samaritan, victim of western propaganda, there should be examples of good acts. Let´s find something opposite to pointing nukes, close air patrols with switched off responders and close flybys, skip all controversy about Crimea and Georgia, meddling in elections and coups....Maybe I´m just brainwashed victim of western propaganda, but I was unable to find any good acts to Poland, Czechs, Ukraine (focusing on Europe).... in the last decade or two.

    Ultimately I don´t think that russia is doing worse stuff than a lot countries in history, that is fair truth. But where the rest of Europe is somewhat cooperating in peaceful way, Russia is not offering any good alternative for future and doing only mischiefs. i will once more use my allegory with class. Historically in class full of bad students, Russia would be yet another one, nothing exceptional. Imagine class with Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini and Franco.... But now? 21st century, rest of class is for time being working on projects in cooperation while russia is standing aside with typical hybrid war or whatever. Orban and others are simply different league to Putin.

  10. #90
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ˇAy Carmela!
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    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    I don't want to sound cynical, but goodwill and unselfishness are not going to be found in foreign policy. Western Europe largely belongs to the same international alliances (European Union and NATO), which explains why they cooperate together. Financial support is always given, under specific conditions, from which the lender plans to profit. These advantages may vary from political influence and military collaboration to the establishment of a friendly investment environment or the opening of a lucrative market. Back when Eastern Europe had joined the Warsaw Pact, it was the Soviet Union that could appear as the "altruistic angel", by providing material and financial aid to the membership of the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance.

    Therefore, nowadays, if you want to find more modern examples, you should look at the allies of Kremlin, such as Armenia, Belarus or even pre-Maidan Ukraine (to mention only European states), although Russia being historically much poorer than Europe means that the numbers are proportionately smaller. I think you also make the mistake of assuming that the geopolitical disputes between governments and lobbies represent some sort of mythical, unified national interest. In my opinion, this supposition can gradually lead to unnecessary polarisation and the subsequent demonisation of your country's diplomatic antagonist, that the objectives of said conflicts hardly concern the well-being of our societies, Russian, Czech or Moldavian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Here's an article in english.
    Which does not support your claim of the Moldavian President being expelled, due to a big, bad tape. Everyone, from Wikipedia to BBC, attest that the reasons for Dodon's fall was the failed negotiations for a coalition government. Carmen's quote give a nice summary of the implications and general context of the leak. We can discuss about Romania's repeated attempts to annex her eastern neighbor, but my point was not scold Bucharest, but to show that the objectivity of Romanian sources is suspect, because of the conflict of interests about who is going to control the region of Bessarabia.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    But where the rest of Europe is somewhat cooperating in peaceful way, Russia is not offering any good alternative for future and doing only mischiefs. i will once more use my allegory with class.

    Nah, Western Europe is run by oligarchies to the same extent as Russia is. "Peaceful cooperation" in reality isn't result of good will of benevolent liberal democracies, but rather convenient outcome from a short (by historical standards) period of stability, that Russia didn't get to enjoy, due to factors that include activity of these liberal democracies throughout the past century, from Western support to 1917 coups to support for Yeltsin's violent government take over of 1993. At the same time we do see a growing rift between neoliberal oligarchies and countries like Hungary and Italy, which chose not to submit themselves to interests of neoliberal elites. It will only be a question of time before Merkel's and her minions threats to those nations become more violent and less vague.

  12. #92
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Why hasn’t Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Nonsense, as your beloved nationalistic states of previous times enjoyed never 70 years of peace in Europe, as the EC/EU member enjoyed between each other.

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