Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 92

Thread: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

  1. #41
    swabian's Avatar Suspended
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,509

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbdŁlmecid I View Post
    This sounds like scare-mongering, Daruwind. Russia attempting to restore the USSR reminds of the Balkan paranoia over Erdoğan supposedly aiming to recreate the Ottoman Empire. Is there any actual indication that the Russian government is influenced by such ridiculous illusions of grandeur, apart from empty rhetoric pandering at nationalism? I don't think so, and, even if it did, Russian foreign policy is not determined by the emotions of the Federation's President. Neither Ukraine nor Georgia can be considered as a serious threat against Poland, the Czech Republic or even the Baltic countries, as, in both wars, Kremlin aimed at maintaining its sphere of influence across neighboring countries, which lacked any serious diplomatic alliances. Blaming Russia for expansionism is irrational, as the country lacks the means to achieve any substantial attack against NATO's interests. Since the disintegration of the Soviet Union, Kremlin's sphere of influence continuously decreases, while the geopolitical tensions in 2008 and 2014, mark a probably temporary stop for that trend, as Russia, after Yeltin's retirement, has managed to recover a small portion of her former power. Putin's designation as an omnipotent absolute monarch domestically and a bloodthirsty warlord internationally is more a product of biased media's caricature than an accurate representation of his hold on power, as well as the objectives of his foreign policy agenda.
    The annexation of Krimea was a warlike act and a highly irresponsible exertion of political power in the 21st century. There is no downplaying the danger of Putin's regime. Putin has complete control over the countries' media and the Russian prisons are filled with political opponents as far as anyone can tell. Russia is medially almost as isolated as North Korea. Nobody really knows what is going on there, but you obviously.

    Nobody "blames" Russia for expansionism anymore. What a foolish notion is that. It is evident that it is expansionist. No necessity for blames anymore. It's right there for everybody to realize.

  2. #42
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Prague
    Posts
    2,356

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    No Cookiegod. It is not about one single point on history, one event or one war. It is trend and sadly the last century experience with Russia was almost exclusively negative. Lower are just some recent events..

    Coup in Montenegro
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_coup_plot
    Occupied parts Gerogia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupi...ies_of_Georgia
    Annexation of Crimea
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexa...ian_Federation
    .....
    If you say Russia kicked Nazis...well I will point to Ribentrop-Molotov and slaughtering of Poland like Katyn and then to our occupation firstly political after 1948 and second military one after 1968..

    I will ask differently. Why should we trust that Russia has only peaceful thoughts or motives? Give me a few reason from recent past. Give me examples from recent history... :-) Give me some positive stuff for European countries recently...Something without aiming ICBMs..

    For example look at Germany. Germany was big "villain" for two world wars. We as czechs were fighting with those filthy germans more than thousand years. Often lossing, often being under their rule. Hating them...after WW2 we even kicked a lot of them from our lands.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expuls...Czechoslovakia
    This is for example one of dark moments in our history as germans were always part of our history.

    But after this after fall of iron curtains? We are friends, we trade, we live side by side, we are all in EU. I have no problem with Germany having big word in EU, this time they worked for it and earned it through peaceful work. So where are any eastern ideas, plans and dreams? Why Russia cannot offer us something? Another vision, another project? I see it that Russia is offering only fear and thatīs why many slowly flocks to the NATO/EU. This is the same logic with NATO expanding east. NATO is not expanding on its own...states are willing to join, they want they preffer NATO. So the correct question is, why are they preffering NATO...Why?

    DMR: R2 (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

  3. #43

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbdŁlmecid I View Post
    This sounds like scare-mongering, Daruwind. Russia attempting to restore the USSR reminds of the Balkan paranoia over Erdoğan supposedly aiming to recreate the Ottoman Empire. Is there any actual indication that the Russian government is influenced by such ridiculous illusions of grandeur, apart from empty rhetoric pandering at nationalism? I don't think so, and, even if it did, Russian foreign policy is not determined by the emotions of the Federation's President.
    LOL Yes, they do.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-...s-plan-merger/
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/...ko-says-a64517

    Russian's foreign policy, as it always does, is wanting to conquer Eastern Europe, as it did with the Russian Empire, and as it did with the USSR. This is geopolitics and what the Russian government deems as the "restoration" of the golden age. This is not "paranoia".

  4. #44
    Cookiegod's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    2,660

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    The annexation of Krimea was a warlike act and a highly irresponsible exertion of political power in the 21st century. There is no downplaying the danger of Putin's regime. Putin has complete control over the countries' media and the Russian prisons are filled with political opponents as far as anyone can tell. Russia is medially almost as isolated as North Korea. Nobody really knows what is going on there, but you obviously.

    Nobody "blames" Russia for expansionism anymore. What a foolish notion is that. It is evident that it is expansionist. No necessity for blames anymore. It's right there for everybody to realize.
    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    No Cookiegod. It is not about one single point on history, one event or one war. It is trend and sadly the last century experience with Russia was almost exclusively negative. Lower are just some recent events..

    Coup in Montenegro
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegrin_coup_plot
    Occupied parts Gerogia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupi...ies_of_Georgia
    Annexation of Crimea
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexa...ian_Federation
    .....
    If you say Russia kicked Nazis...well I will point to Ribentrop-Molotov and slaughtering of Poland like Katyn and then to our occupation firstly political after 1948 and second military one after 1968..

    I will ask differently. Why should we trust that Russia has only peaceful thoughts or motives? Give me a few reason from recent past. Give me examples from recent history... :-) Give me some positive stuff for European countries recently...Something without aiming ICBMs..

    For example look at Germany. Germany was big "villain" for two world wars. We as czechs were fighting with those filthy germans more than thousand years. Often lossing, often being under their rule. Hating them...after WW2 we even kicked a lot of them from our lands.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expuls...Czechoslovakia
    This is for example one of dark moments in our history as germans were always part of our history.

    But after this after fall of iron curtains? We are friends, we trade, we live side by side, we are all in EU. I have no problem with Germany having big word in EU, this time they worked for it and earned it through peaceful work. So where are any eastern ideas, plans and dreams? Why Russia cannot offer us something? Another vision, another project? I see it that Russia is offering only fear and thatīs why many slowly flocks to the NATO/EU. This is the same logic with NATO expanding east. NATO is not expanding on its own...states are willing to join, they want they preffer NATO. So the correct question is, why are they preffering NATO...Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by REhorror View Post
    LOL Yes, they do.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-...s-plan-merger/
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/...ko-says-a64517

    Russian's foreign policy, as it always does, is wanting to conquer Eastern Europe, as it did with the Russian Empire, and as it did with the USSR. This is geopolitics and what the Russian government deems as the "restoration" of the golden age. This is not "paranoia".
    This absolutely is paranoia, and delusion, and in no way connected to the reality on the ground.
    Russia has neither the means, nor the interest in "restoring a golden age".

    It is absolutely hilarious how all of you have to keep harking on about 20th and 21st century politics (and wilfully ignore ~80% of what's going on there, as if there was no context, no nuance, no other side) when the topic specifically was about presoviet Russia, which you all were repeatedly reminded off. I'll be honest to admit there are some logical gems here that I'd love to tear into, but all this would be a wasted effort. Broken record plates will be broken. There's absolutely nothing that can be said that will change anything.
    If you can't beat'em, join them

  5. #45

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Delusion in the ground when Belarus and Russia are getting their gang back together.

    Yeah, I would call that denial.

    Mind you, I do not support bombing Russia because of that, or any military action, but to pretend Russia doesn't have ambition (and ways) to restore its former empire is delusional.

  6. #46
    Cookiegod's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    2,660

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Lol. Russia & Belarus intensify an already strong partnership (which btw. had been started mainly by Lukashenko, who, before Putin's successes in the early 2000s, had hoped to become president of Russia as well) means the two will overrun the world? xD

    Russia's ambitions are pretty simple: For the ruling elite to have a stable income, keep a steady income from their natural resources, maybe develop their country a bit from that income as well, but most importantly, not be bled dry/overrun by the west.

    It's the same meme as with "agressive" Iran:

    The argument y'all are pushing, is that no rapprochement can exist with Russia, that we can only live in perpetual hostility with it, and to push that narrative, you're ignoring that I've debunked that was the case in the past.

    The scaremongering is even more ridiculous, when one considers all the stunts NATO member states are pulling on a global scale. But nooope! If Russia and Belarus intensify their mutual relationship further, that must mean the mongol horde is on the march again!
    If you can't beat'em, join them

  7. #47
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    In my Mansion
    Posts
    2,636

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Fact is, the Crimea is ethnical russian, it belonged historical most time to Russia, their inhabitants voted for the annexion later.

    The whole conflict could be solved, if russians in Donbass get autonomy and Ukraine became a neutral state with its borders guaranteed by Nato and Russia.

    Instead tensions are increased while annexion of Golan heights is accepted as reality. It should be clear, that by bo chance Ukraine won't get Crimea back.

    Lets accept reality and make a fair compromise.
    Proud Non-Citizen and Goth

    Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly. (Morticia Addams)


  8. #48
    AbdŁlmecid I's Avatar °Ay Carmela!
    Moderation Overseer Civitate Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4,973

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by REhorror View Post
    Russian's foreign policy, as it always does, is wanting to conquer Eastern Europe, as it did with the Russian Empire, and as it did with the USSR. This is geopolitics and what the Russian government deems as the "restoration" of the golden age. This is not "paranoia".
    Neither the Soviet Union nor the Russian Empire conquered Eastern Europe. I'm not sure what exactly the story of the merge between Belarus and the Russian Federation is supposed to prove. Your first article is 20 years old and the second links to another piece explaining how the talks are mainly a product of Lukashenko's mind and why the project is unfeasible, in the foreseeable future. In any case, a merge with Belarus, especially considering how popular and unpopular is such a scenario among the Belorussians (even in 1999) and Russians, respectively, is not an indication of aggressive expansionism. I doubt anyone accused Helmut Kohl of trying to restore the 2nd Reich, after the reunification of Germany, or Saleh of attempting to conquer the Arabian Peninsula, when Yemen was united. Russia's foreign policy, like that of every member of the United Nations, is to protect and promote its interests abroad, mainly in terms of a market for exports and a friendly environment for investments. Military conquest does not belong to the realm of possibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Nobody really knows what is going on there, but you obviously.
    And you, apparently. If Russia is so terribly isolated, how come we are so well-informed about the government's control of the media and the political prisoners? Mentioning North Korea is a suitable example, as, despite the regime's isolation, the media are quick to circulate many juicy stories of how brutally Kim Jong-un kills his subordinates, although the only source are unreliable East Asian tabloids.

  9. #49
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
    Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nehekhara
    Posts
    14,247

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbdŁlmecid I View Post
    Neither the Soviet Union nor the Russian Empire conquered Eastern Europe.
    Actually they did. Bot the USSR and the Russian empire controlled all of Eastern Europe as well as parts of Central Europe such as half of Moldova and parts of Poland and aprts of Northern Europe such as Finland, a bit of Norway and the Baltics.

    In fact Russia still holds 70% of Eastern Europe to this day.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  10. #50
    AbdŁlmecid I's Avatar °Ay Carmela!
    Moderation Overseer Civitate Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4,973

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Conquest does not mean control. Even if you think it does, you cannot apply it selectively only to Russia. In any case, neither the Soviet Union nor the Russian Empire ever controlled the totality of Eastern, with only a brief exception, between the end of World War II and Romania's defection, if, of course, you do not consider the Balkans as parts of Eastern Europe. On the pedantry side, Moldavia is not located in central Europe and Russia certainly never captured any territory from Norway. The borders of Norway have not changed since the times of the Republic of Novgorod.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Current problem is not what was agenda or goal in 1920ī or what Lenin or Stalin thought in those days or who was calling shots. Problem is Putin and others looking back and dreaming about it...Of course this time the tsar, the god the ruler would be Putin not some pesky iron man from Georgia..



    And I have no problems with saying russians were NOT solely responsible for crimes of Soviet Union. However if current Russia is trying to reforge this empire under Russia as leader. That is somewhat worrying us..;-)
    Russians have every reason not to trust West and act accordingly to ensure that West doesn't have another go at Russia.
    West backed Yeltsin's coup and his establishment as a dictator, throwing Russia into an economic and social dark age in the 1990s.
    West broke promises not to expand NATO into Warsaw Pact countries.
    Western countries backed coups (so-called "color revolutions") on borders with Russia to establish aggressively rusophobic regimes there.
    Russian "ambitions" aren't really stemming from desire to "re-establish an empire" and have more to do with having protection from an aggressive existential threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Actually they did. Bot the USSR and the Russian empire controlled all of Eastern Europe as well as parts of Central Europe such as half of Moldova and parts of Poland and aprts of Northern Europe such as Finland, a bit of Norway and the Baltics.
    So did Britain and Germany.
    In fact Russia still holds 70% of Eastern Europe to this day.
    How dare they control their own territory!
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; June 01, 2019 at 03:04 PM.

  12. #52
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
    Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nehekhara
    Posts
    14,247

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    You are confused on two main issues.

    1. Romania is not part of Eastern Europe by any definition aside for the old, and no longer valid, NATO vs Warsaw spiit. Romania is in Central Europe, just like Poland and western Ukraine. Eastern Europe is comprised of most of Belarus, Russia, Transdnistria and all of Ukraine east of Kiev and the Dniester. This is geography, this is not debatable in any sense.

    Here is a map of Europe for refference


    2. Russian control over any piece of land was established solely by conquest. Even the colonization of Siberia was done via the military subjugation of the native tribes and the establishment of military settlements. At no point in history did any entity join russia voluntarily - Crimeea is still debatable.
    Last edited by Settra; June 01, 2019 at 03:04 PM.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  13. #53

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    You are confused on two main issues.

    1. Romania is not part of Eastern Europe by any definition aside for the old, and no longer valid, NATO vs Warsaw spiit. Romania is in Central Europe, just like Poland and western Ukraine. Eastern Europe is comprised of most of Belarus, Russia, Transdnistria and all of Ukraine east of Kiev and the Dniester. This is geography, this is not debatable in any sense.
    Semantics.

    Here is a map of Europe for refference


    2. Russian control over any piece of land was established solely by conquest. Even the colonization of Siberia was done via the military subjugation of the native tribes and the establishment of military settlements. At no point in history did any entity join russia voluntarily - Crimeea is still debatable.
    It is safe to say that majority of territories of modern European (and the rest of the world) states were won by brain and brawl, Russia being no exception.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; June 01, 2019 at 04:23 PM.

  14. #54
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Civitate

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    6,934
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Actually, the UN statistics division considers everything east of Czech Republic Eastern Europe.

    Neither the Soviet Union nor the Russian Empire conquered Eastern Europe.
    Maybe not in totality, but did the Soviet Invasion of Poland in 1939 not happen? Or the several times before that. Russia has historically been an existential threat for Eastern Europe.
    Last edited by Aexodus; June 01, 2019 at 03:33 PM.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  15. #55
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    In my Mansion
    Posts
    2,636

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    you mean east of...
    Proud Non-Citizen and Goth

    Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly. (Morticia Addams)


  16. #56
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
    Civitate

    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    NI
    Posts
    6,934
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Oops
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  17. #57
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
    Content Emeritus

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nehekhara
    Posts
    14,247

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Actually, the UN statistics division considers everything west of Czech Republic Eastern Europe.



    Maybe not in totality, but did the Soviet Invasion of Poland in 1939 not happen? Or the several times before that. Russia has historically been an existential threat for Eastern Europe.
    The UN geoscheme for Europe is outdated and is based on the driving political ideologies at the time of its foundation. The division is entirely flawed, as it fails to take the central european cultural block into consideration, and showing slovenia in southern europe while bulgaria in eastern europe. The UN is currently working on updating it and you will see that the phrase eastern europe os no longer used whwn reffering to countries, being replaced by central and eastern european group.

    Geographcally the center of europe is on the Polish-Ukrainian border - so calling poland eastern european is just plain stupid. Culturaly and politically thw only 3 eastern european countries are russia, belarus and the ukraine.
    Under the patronage of Pie the Inkster Click here to find a hidden gem on the forum!


  18. #58

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    As per the OP, let's just say this: for the period before WW2, you would do better to read intellectuals like Ivan Kireyevsky and Oswald Spengler.

    Russia was always very far apart from European culture and civilization. It developed under different oriental values, motivated by its Byzantinism, its Orthodox Kievan Christianity, and its proximity to Mongol, Tatar and Finno-Ugric elements, as well as its geographical remoteness from the rest of Europe.

    This remoteness extended well into the post-Petrine period, with the Slavophile x Westernizer dichotomy. Nowadays, though, Russians are rediscovering their identity as a non-European civilization, and their values as an Eurasian power.

    They seem to have a chance. Europe, on the other hand, doesn't have any. Europe is a relic and living fossil, a kinda of post-Hellenistic Greece if we take the Conservative Spenglerian view of history seriously. It is nothing but fodder for American globalists.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  19. #59
    Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    4,645

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Russia is suffering from most of the same problems as any leftist region in Western Europe, and usually to a bigger extent. Poverty, unemployment, despondency, low birth rates, Islamization, terrorism, internationalism, you name it.

    Fun Fact: the only country in Europe with officially-sanctioned sharia law is Russia. The Putin-sponsored regime in Chechnya imprisons and executes gays, bans eating in public during Ramadan, harasses women who don't cover up, and lots of other things like that. That's worse than anything you'll find in Molenbeek.

    Putin is even building huge mosques with Erdogan's help and prosecuting people who insult Islam, while doing pretty much nothing to stem the flow of Central Asian Muslim immigrants.

    Pew estimates that in 2050 Sweden will have the highest proportion of Muslims in Western Europe, at 20% of the population. By contrast...

    Russia Will Be One-Third Muslim in 15 Years, Chief Mufti Predicts

    Around 30 percent of the Russian population will practice Islam within the next 15 years, Russiaís grand mufti has predicted, citing demographic trends...

    ďAccording to experts, Russiaís [Muslim] population will increase to 30 percent in a decade and a half,Ē said Ravil Gainutdin, the chairman of the Council of Muftis, a religious group representing Russiaís Muslim community.

    The changing demographics mean that ďdozensĒ of new mosques will need to be built in Russiaís largest cities, Gainutdin said at a forum hosted by the State Duma on Monday.

    Archpriest Dmitry Smirnov, an official in Russiaís Orthodox Church, agreed with Gainutdinís forecast and predicted that ďthere won't be any Russians left in 2050.Ē

    ďItís too late,Ē he told the Govorit Moskva radio station when asked if the demographic trend could be reversed.
    This is the country the West should imitate?

    I'll pass.
    Last edited by Prodromos; June 01, 2019 at 04:37 PM.
    Ignore List (to save time):

    Exarch

  20. #60
    Cookiegod's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    In Derc's schizophrenic mind
    Posts
    2,660

    Default Re: Why hasnít Europe ever trusted Russia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    1. Romania is not part of Eastern Europe by any definition aside for the old, and no longer valid, NATO vs Warsaw spiit. Romania is in Central Europe, just like Poland and western Ukraine. Eastern Europe is comprised of most of Belarus, Russia, Transdnistria and all of Ukraine east of Kiev and the Dniester. This is geography, this is not debatable in any sense.

    Here is a map of Europe for refference
    The rascal is at it again! Why do you keep claiming to know stuff when you don't?

    There's no clear definition of Europe in general, and also not which part of it are east, west, central, etc. It's very much up for debate, and funnily enough, your definition is a weird outsider one.

    Poland and Romania are universally called eastern Europe, and if you ask the UN, you get this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    2. Russian control over any piece of land was established solely by conquest. Even the colonization of Siberia was done via the military subjugation of the native tribes and the establishment of military settlements. At no point in history did any entity join russia voluntarily - Crimeea is still debatable.
    100% of England was established solely by military conquest. 100% of the US was established by bloodthirsty conquest. The Franks invading the Roman empire weren't exactly saints either.

    That assertion of yours is so ridiculous, you must have noticed that when thinking it or at least when writing it... Come on!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    You are confused on two main issues.
    Indeed.
    If you can't beat'em, join them

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •