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Thread: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

  1. #21
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    It is safe to say, Erdogan has more in common with cosmopolitan authoritarianism in countries like UK, then with democratic nationalism in Central Europe.
    Are you joking? Cosmopolitanism and Erdoğan? The dude is the epitome of authoritarian nationalism.
    Orban and others are amateurs compared to him.

    Though the methods are Putinesque-Erdoğanist way of keeping authoritarianism in "democracies" is same.

    It is almost often done through media-mogul conglomerates that are fed by procurements in other sectors while they produce nationalist hysteria to legitimize authoritarian actions.

    The links between Turkish construction sector, obviously government controlled "free" media and their extremely nationalist and polarizing attitudes are not a coincidence.
    Last edited by dogukan; May 21, 2019 at 11:42 AM.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  2. #22

    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Are you joking? Cosmopolitanism and Erdoğan? The dude is the epitome of authoritarian nationalism.
    Nah, Erdo is a garden-variety Islamist. And Islamism, as we know it, is a very internationalist ideology.

  3. #23
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Nah, Erdo is a garden-variety Islamist. And Islamism, as we know it, is a very internationalist ideology.
    Erdoğan is an ally of gray wolves and have distanced many islamists in the recent years.

    I watch this guy everyday.
    He calls himself an anti-globalist nationalist fighting against the imperialist west.
    His politics revolve around the turkish nationalist islamism.
    Not a cosmopolitan ideology at all.

    He is extremely discriminating and polarizing.
    Calling erdoğan a cosmopolitanist is ridiculous.
    One of his favorite slogans is "ONE LANGUAGE, ONE STATE, ONE NATION"

    Stop trying to force the reality into your views.

    I live in a country where you are a traitor for not having a turkish flag almost, with ridiculous levels of nationalism.
    Even the islamism in turkey is a subject of turkish nationalism.
    They identify islam by referring turks being the "sword of islam".
    Erdoğan keeps referring to soros as the hand of evil west and calls "left" degenerate servants of imperialists in turkey.

    Yes, a cosmopolitan liberal indeed.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  4. #24

    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    He calls himself an anti-globalist nationalist fighting against the imperialist west.
    Saying that and doing that are two different things.
    He is extremely discriminating and polarizing.
    Calling erdoğan a cosmopolitanist is ridiculous.
    One of his favorite slogans is "ONE LANGUAGE, ONE STATE, ONE NATION"
    Nah, that's just posturing. Bush and Obama constantly posed with American flags and whined about how special Murreka is, that didn't prevent them from being rootless cosmopolitanists.
    Nationalism is when you prioritize interests of taxpayers, majority of which constitute people of your nation, not when you LARP as some inbred medieval sultan.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; May 22, 2019 at 07:37 AM.

  5. #25
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    So, hopefully, the amateurishness and genuine incompetence of Strache could perhaps contribute to the delegitimisation of xenophobic opportunism, but I'm personally not very optimist.
    I guess you are right, judging by H.Hammer's reaction, " the author of this title thought that would automatically cause a negative reaction in an average lemming". Well, let's wait and see. The recent collapse of the Austrian government is a blow for Europe's far-right parties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    After all, Strache himself, while being young and irresponsible, was shown having fun in the cordial company of Austrian Neo-Nazis.
    Strache is 50 years age... a not so young neonazi. Let's also keep in mind that the Freedom Party was founded in 1956 as a party with close associations to the Nazis. Its first two chairmen were former SS officers: Anton Reinthaller (1956-58) and Friedrich Peter (1958-78).
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    Genava's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Nationalism is when you prioritize interests of taxpayers, majority of which constitute people of your nation, not when you LARP as some inbred medieval sultan.
    Are you sure to have a basic knowledge of the history of nationalism? I think you are confusing it with populism and demagogy.
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  7. #27
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Nationalism is when you prioritize interests of taxpayers, majority of which constitute people of your nation, not when you LARP as some inbred medieval sultan.
    Yeah something everyone claims to do...but who defines those interests again?

    Nationalism had been like this for centuries. I arguably live in one of the most nationalist countries on earth. The nationalism in Turkey is in mythical levels. And I know when the same irrationaly hysteria and way of thinking is there. Over decades, I dare say I became an expert on the nationalist mindset. I was one myself.

    There is no "policy recipe" for nationalist politics. Such a thing does not exist. Nationalism is not about a political-system, it is about a way of ruling and control.
    It is often people who are stimulated highly by primitive political stances.
    Thats why nationalism is more common among lower classes and the less educated.
    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  8. #28

    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Saying that and doing that are two different things.

    Nah, that's just posturing. Bush and Obama constantly posed with American flags and whined about how special Murreka is, that didn't prevent them from being rootless cosmopolitanists.
    Nationalism is when you prioritize interests of taxpayers, majority of which constitute people of your nation, not when you LARP as some inbred medieval sultan.
    I think you're falling prey to the same cognitive fallacy as the Marxists: you've pre-defined "Nationalism" to only refer to your own brand of nationalism. Which is why you protest when someone calls Erdoklan an authoritarian nationalist (which he is - just not a Christian or pro-Western one), just like Marxists protest when you call Hitler a socialist (which he was - just not a Marxist one), or when you call Stalin a Communist...
    See, despite wanting to be king of all Muslims, Erdo is also very much a Turkish supremacist. And nationalism is a spectrum, just like other political convictions/maladies.

    ... And coincidentally, this is all related to the main topic, because there is a large number of Turkish immigrants in Austria (and Germany, and the Netherlands), whom Erdo is trying to use as leverage against the Austrian state and as colonists who are supposed to spread glorious Turkish culture and genes (by the way, a very similar relationship to famous Austrian leader Adolf Schicklgruber's with German immigrant communities around the world). This in turn breeds resentment among the natives, which is one of the many factors that explain the popularity of the FPÖ in the first place.

  9. #29
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Hitler was not a socialist. Hitler's own views on socialism are evident in a debate with Otto Strasser. A long, two days debate. Read it entirely,
    Hitler vs Strasser, The Historic Debate of May 21st and 22nd 1930

    Brief excerpts,
    Hitler,

    "You see, the great mass of workers only wants bread and circuses. Ideas are not accessible to them and we cannot hope to win them over. We attach ourselves to the fringe, the race of lords, which did not grow through a miserabilist doctrine and knows by the virtue of its own character that it is called to rule, and rule without weakness over the masses of beings.

    ...Every revolution is fundamentally racial. There are no social, political, or economic revolutions. Combat always opposes an inferior racial sub-stratum to a superior ruling race. When the superior race forgets this law, it loses the fight... The Nordic race is called to dominate the world, and this right must guide our foreign policy.

    ...Our great heads of industry are not concerned with the accumulation of wealth and the good life, rather they are concerned with responsibility and power. They have acquired this right by natural selection: they are members of the higher race.

    ... the white, Nordic, race has a mission to organize the world in such a manner that each country produces what suits it best. It is incumbent upon us to realize this grandiose project. Believe me, National Socialism would mean little if it was limited to Germany alone and did not seal the domination of the world by the white race for 1000 or 2000 years.

    That doesn’t mean the exploitation of other races. To put it simply, the inferior races are called to realize other destinies than the superior races. We want to assure the domination of the world.

    ...The state will only intervene if people do not act in the interest of the nation...The expression of socialism is faulty in itself, and above all: it doesn’t imply that enterprises must be nationalized, but only that they can be, in the scenario where they operate against the interest of the nation...Fascism offers us a model that we can absolutely replicate!

    ...In reality, there is only a single economic system: responsibility upwards, authority downwards... A system that rests on anything other than authority downwards and responsibility upwards cannot really make decisions..., for my part, I reserve the right of intervention to an elite within the state"

    ----
    Right loves to call Hitler a socialist,


    Last edited by Ludicus; May 22, 2019 at 01:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    The "Nazis were socialists" is a far-right lie, which shall hide , that their racistic, at least partial fascistic worldview is the same as the nationalsocialistic worldview and shall deceive the people, that they are only patriotic conservatives.
    Last edited by Carmen Sylva; May 22, 2019 at 02:00 PM.
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  11. #31

    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Yeah something everyone claims to do...but who defines those interests again?
    Taxpayers can do that themselves. Hence why Hungarians and Austrian taxpayers elected governments that they have right now, where, unlike in countries where democracy is decline, such as Turkey and UK, you aren't really at risk of getting arrested for posting something on social media.
    Nationalism had been like this for centuries. I arguably live in one of the most nationalist countries on earth. The nationalism in Turkey is in mythical levels. And I know when the same irrationaly hysteria and way of thinking is there. Over decades, I dare say I became an expert on the nationalist mindset. I was one myself.

    There is no "policy recipe" for nationalist politics. Such a thing does not exist. Nationalism is not about a political-system, it is about a way of ruling and control.
    It is often people who are stimulated highly by primitive political stances.
    Thats why nationalism is more common among lower classes and the less educated.
    As I said above, nationalism is a principle of prioritizing interests of your nation. In context of the past, such interests could have been expressed differently, but now they are expressed by representing taxpayers. Erdogan waste's his taxpayer's money on invading Syria and backing jihadists. In a way, he is kind of a neocon. Supporting Islamic nonsense doesn't make him a nationalist, just like endless wars in Middle East never made Bush or McCain nationalists.

  12. #32
    dogukan's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    I think you should come to turkey and tell it to erdoğans party, its nationalist alliance and voters. Everyday we get called not "national" enough lol.

    What you say is completely irrational. You assume your truth-model is the only one. The subjectivity of what you say leaves no room for a debate. You are essentially livinig in the worle you created in your mind in terms of politics, assuming you can determine what the "national interest" of a nationalist turkey is. Can you even define what national interests are? Can you even prove "national interets" exist?
    As a turk, i believe my interests lie with the west. An islamist believes it is to fight west. A nationalist believes it is to purge kurds.
    Which one will we pick?


    Nationalism is prioritizing the "tax-payers" is not a definition and is an extremely wrong way to postule. It lacks any universal ground to talk upon.
    Because it assumes the other half of the voters are not taxpayers or that their interests are not "national".

    This postulating is exactly the nationalist mindset. And overly-simplistic view of the worls that leaves no room for democratic politics.
    There are true nationals(erdoğans followrrs) and the traitors(the seculars in turkey or the left in EU)....




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    "Therefore I am not in favour of raising any dogmatic banner. On the contrary, we must try to help the dogmatists to clarify their propositions for themselves. Thus, communism, in particular, is a dogmatic abstraction; in which connection, however, I am not thinking of some imaginary and possible communism, but actually existing communism as taught by Cabet, Dézamy, Weitling, etc. This communism is itself only a special expression of the humanistic principle, an expression which is still infected by its antithesis – the private system. Hence the abolition of private property and communism are by no means identical, and it is not accidental but inevitable that communism has seen other socialist doctrines – such as those of Fourier, Proudhon, etc. – arising to confront it because it is itself only a special, one-sided realisation of the socialist principle."
    Marx to A.Ruge

  13. #33
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    It’s actually quite interesting to talk about whether Erdogan is a nationalist or an Islamist. Or both. I would think that Ataturk would have been a secular Turkish nationalist.

    I don’t know much about Turkey, but from what I do know I gather Ataturk would be rolling in his grave over Recep’s reign.

    Merriam-Webster
    loyalty and devotion to a nationespecially : a sense of national consciousness (see CONSCIOUSNESS sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranationalgroups Intense nationalism was one of the causes of the war.
    A nationalist believes it is to purge kurds.
    Necessarily? I would imagine it is only the extremists that want to purge Kurds, that is to say, genocide.

    The "Nazis were socialists" is a far-right lie, which shall hide , that their racistic, at least partial fascistic worldview is the same as the nationalsocialistic worldview and shall deceive the people, that they are only patriotic conservatives.
    As subscribers to a revolutionary anti-monarchist ideology, conservatives (lower case) had little to admire from the National Socialist German Workers Party.

    Initially they wanted to compete with the Communist Party away from internationalist politics toward nationalist politics. Appealing to anti-semitism and racism was one way they did this, as well as appealing to anti-capitalist voters.

    At this time the Communists and the Nazis were on the up and up, so business leaders and the monarchist political establishment who previously weren’t particularly enamoured with Hitler such as Hindenburg, reluctantly appointed him Chancellor as the Communists were seen as a greater threat. Von Papen among others, thought this meant they could exert greatee control over the Nazis this way, as they and the Communists were engaging in street battles and violence.

    So while the communists labeled the moderate left as social fascists, the Nazis worked with the moderate right and eventually betrayed them after Hindenburg died. They exploited the constitutional and social weaknesses of the Weimar Republic to seize absolute power and make Hitler Führer, and the rest of the story we know...

    So to recap, Nazis aren’t conservatives, and Communists aren’t social democrats.

    Re: Topic

    The FPO is close to the White Nationalist GI movement. They are ‘likeminded people’. I would guess, that like the BNP in England 15 years ago, Austrian voters are very much holding their noses while voting for them as they hate the alternatives so much, and those alternatives aren’t doing what they want about key social issues such as immigration, and segregation and community relations.

    Personally I don’t think different ethnic groups should be living as insular ‘communities’, instead they should feel comfortable to integrate, and ultimately assimilate.

    It’s racist to say non-whites are rats, but it’s not racist to want them to assimilate, culturally.

    If mainstream parties on the left and right approached immigration like adults they could defeat the so-called ‘far right’ across Europe with little effort.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  14. #34
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Demanding assimilation is quite authoritarian, according to the modern standards of the civilised world. As long as the state laws are respected, everyone is free to behave as he wishes. The Austrian Constitution guaranteeds the fundamental human right of religious tolerance, so, if the fragile sensitivities of Austrian nationalists are trigerred by minarets, that's hardly the fault of the Muslims. The rates of immigration to Austria are pretty low (not even close to those of countries, like Saudi Arabia, Qatar or the United Arab Emirates, whose culture has indeed evolved drastically, as a result of massive immigration) and mostly concern people originating from other parts of Europe, like Germany, Hungary and the former Yugoslav Republics. As a matter of fact, the Freedom Party traditionally panders to the desires of one (if not the) Austria's largest ethnic minority, that of the Serbs. Even if Suleiman the Magnificent and his Janissaries were again outside the gates of Vienna, there is no excuse for every Austrian choosing to vote for a reactionary, chauvinist party, whose leadership always maintained links to Nazism, from when the party was established until nowadays, as Heinz-Christian Strache participated in excursions together with somewhat controversial paramilitaries.

  15. #35
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Assimilation to me doesn’t mean people stopping being Muslim, Christian, or Jewish, it means becoming totally Austrian/British/German in your identity, and immigrants not living amongst their respective ‘community’. Take the Birmingham protests by Muslim parents. They say ‘this is a Muslim community. Not exactly particularly multicultural sounding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Take the Birmingham protests by Muslim parents. They say ‘this is a Muslim community. Not exactly particularly multicultural sounding.
    I think it is multicultural. What could be more multicultural than them expressing their own cultural values rather than conforming to whatever is being prescribed by whoever is coming up with the curriculum?
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  17. #37
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Well by that logic Jess Phillips is being intolerant whereas the Labour MP for Birmingham is being tolerant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Well by that logic Jess Phillips is being intolerant whereas the Labour MP for Birmingham is being tolerant.
    I didn’t say anything about tolerance. Values tend to be normative and intolerant to varying degrees. Ironically, even when the value itself involves tolerance. There is more to culture than mere preferences.

    I saw that clip, she said that she doesn’t agree that they get to pick and choose and that they’re damaging the reputation of their community. Did they have a reputation as a “woke” community? It’s kind of amusing, that guy told her they “will not have [their] children indoctrinated or participating in social engineering programs.” Who does that sound like?
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  19. #39
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Ok sure, those are their cultural values.

    One glaring problem with the lack of assimilation of British Muslims is that 52% still think that homosexuality should be illegal. Not gay marriage, gayness. It’s one thing to say that homosexuality is against God, and another to say that it should therefore get you thrown in prison.

    It’s not about what muslim parents what their kids taught, that’s not my point. My point is that we’re seeing unacceptable levels of segregation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Ibiza Affair: Austrian Nationalists Expose Themselves on Camera

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    I think you should come to turkey and tell it to erdoğans party, its nationalist alliance and voters. Everyday we get called not "national" enough lol.
    I think you confuse label with, well, content. For example, here in Canada, we have "Liberal' party in power, but the funny part is that the only thing liberal in it is name, while in reality this is the most authoritarian political nightmare that we had since 30s fascist movements. Then we have all the "people's democratic" republics in 2nd world, which were democratic in name only. As I said, Erdogan is just a neocon, who uses islamic nonsense, much like McCain/Cheney types in US use christian nonsense to push their agenda.
    What you say is completely irrational. You assume your truth-model is the only one. The subjectivity of what you say leaves no room for a debate. You are essentially livinig in the worle you created in your mind in terms of politics, assuming you can determine what the "national interest" of a nationalist turkey is. Can you even define what national interests are? Can you even prove "national interets" exist?
    As a turk, i believe my interests lie with the west. An islamist believes it is to fight west. A nationalist believes it is to purge kurds.
    Which one will we pick?
    I find it quite funny how the first part of this quote perfectly describes... its second part. I'm just using more or less conventional definitions of terms.
    Nationalism is prioritizing the "tax-payers" is not a definition and is an extremely wrong way to postule. It lacks any universal ground to talk upon.
    Because it assumes the other half of the voters are not taxpayers or that their interests are not "national".

    This postulating is exactly the nationalist mindset. And overly-simplistic view of the worls that leaves no room for democratic politics.
    There are true nationals(erdoğans followrrs) and the traitors(the seculars in turkey or the left in EU)....
    As I said, nationalism's conventional definition is prioritizing interests of one's nation, which in modern context means representing interests of taxpayers (who constitute majority of the nation). And if you are saying that your interests lie in Europe, then you have to acknowledge that it implies the growing role of democratic nationalism. It seems like you construct your worldview based on a very limited perspective.

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