Low attack melee units

[Hirtius]

Machimoi and Uassoi (celtic levies) have a problem with their attack. 2 attack may seem to fit levies, but this attack is common among skirmishers armed only with knives. Even if the machimoi and uassoi aren't good quality troops, it seems unfair to have only 2 attack for units that use spears (especially for the machimoi, who only have 160 men on huge).

Why were they given those stats? Is there any plan to change them?

[QuintusSertorius]

Machimoi have changed in status, they're semi-professional now, and have 4/3 for their attack.

Uassoi are literally farmers bringing spears at the behest of their lords. No plan to change their attack. They are the very epitome of the cheap, untrained levy. The closest approximation in another roster are the Pantodapoi.

[Hirtius]

Machimoi have changed in status, they're semi-professional now, and have 4/3 for their attack.

Uassoi are literally farmers bringing spears at the behest of their lords. No plan to change their attack. They are the very epitome of the cheap, untrained levy. The closest approximation in another roster are the Pantodapoi.

Are the machimoi having their upkeep or unit size changed? And is there a chance that Uassoi and other levies will have reduced upkeep? 135 seems kind of high compared to Kingetoi Usuisparanon, who have an upkeep of 168. I changed them to an upkeep of 95 without changing the attack.

[QuintusSertorius]

Are the machimoi having their upkeep or unit size changed? And is there a chance that Uassoi and other levies will have reduced upkeep? 135 seems kind of high compared to Kingetoi Usuisparanon, who have an upkeep of 168. I changed them to an upkeep of 95 without changing the attack.

Machimoi haven't changed in size, they're still a regular-sized unit. However, their cost and thus upkeep go up with their change in status (and defensive skill, which rises from 3 to 6).

Cost and upkeep are functions of size, amongst other things. Uassoi have a relatively high upkeep because of their size - they're a larger unit than Kingetoi. Note all costs are based on a formula, you're breaking that by arbitrarily adjusting the upkeep of Uassoi, which is in line with every other unit in the game.

[Hirtius]

The increase in defense is good for the machimoi. Anyways, changing the upkeep may go against the formula, but the lack of attack (2 vs 7) , morale (3 vs 5), and defense (9 vs 12) make them vastly inferior. They also lack missiles, which the Kingetoi Usuisparanon. They only have an upkeep difference of only 33. It does mean that I would never recruit them unless as a last resort or as a garrison unit, but even changing that I wouldn't recruit them much anyway. It's not a big change just makes a bit more sense to me from a balance perspective. The works well except for levy units. I don't know the formula, but it seems to overrepresent the importance of the 40 extra men (on huge) in the case of levies. For elite units, 40 less men is extremely significant because they are so good. Even for less than elites like the Kingetoi Usuisparanon, 40 extra men is an important difference, as 7 attack is pretty respectable for a 200 sized unit. For the Uassoi, 40 men isn't significant. Their low stats make these men far less valuable.

[QuintusSertorius]

The increase in defense is good for the machimoi. Anyways, changing the upkeep may go against the formula, but the lack of attack (2 vs 7) , morale (3 vs 5), and defense (9 vs 12) make them vastly inferior. They also lack missiles, which the Kingetoi Usuisparanon. They only have an upkeep difference of only 33. It does mean that I would never recruit them unless as a last resort or as a garrison unit, but even changing that I wouldn't recruit them much anyway. It's not a big change just makes a bit more sense to me from a balance perspective. The works well except for levy units. I don't know the formula, but it seems to overrepresent the importance of the 40 extra men (on huge) in the case of levies. For elite units, 40 less men is extremely significant because they are so good. Even for less than elites like the Kingetoi Usuisparanon, 40 extra men is an important difference, as 7 attack is pretty respectable for a 200 sized unit. For the Uassoi, 40 men isn't significant. Their low stats make these men far less valuable.

Sorry, but you're asking for special pleading for just one unit. Every single unit in the game is costed according to the same formula, no exceptions.

[Hirtius]

Sorry, but you're asking for special pleading for just one unit. Every single unit in the game is costed according to the same formula, no exceptions.

It isn’t just for the Uassoi, it’s for a number of the poorer units. The lake men are another example. They are cheaper by 33 than the Kingetoi Usuisparanon like the Uassoi, but besides have 3 javelins their stats are still disproportionately worse. I don’t know how the formula works, but using the same formula for the best and worst units might not give the most balanced results.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Concerning formula-based pricing of units, I've always been wondering how does it work (in various mods) and how it should work. I mean the price - stats relation.
For instance, the Philip II reforms of the infantry consisted of giving the low classes the sarrissas that made them a unit efficient enough to face much better equipped and much more expensive hoplitai. In terms of the game it would be: raising all the stats while not raising the price. If one apply a uniform pricing formula, this is not possible to happen.
I think it was historically also the case with thyreophoroi reform: soldiers became cheaper while being more efficient at fight - it was not only about the appearance of new "units", but about having better units at cheaper price. (I'm not sure how does it work in EBII, but my observation is: you get better units but they're also more expensive).
Furthermore, some units should be cheap for some factions due to the local environmental or social reasons. This is again not possible with the price-formula.
I wonder if there's any system explanation for the EBII as it is here for DIK, or here for many various mods?

[QuintusSertorius]

The cost isn't based on stats; both cost and stats are derived from size, status, equipment and so on. I've posted the formula before, there's nothing mysterious about it:

A: values 1 through 4
- 1 = levy
- 2 = regular infantryman and light cavalry
- 3 = elite infantryman and regular cavalry
- 4 = elite cavalry

B:Addition of armor values depending on unit
- helmet +1
- 1 greave +0.5
- 2 greaves +1
- soft armour +0.5
- scale shirt, and linothorax +1
- mail +1.5
- breatplate +2
- cheires + 1
- small shield +0.5
- large shield +1.0

C: weapons
- sword +1
- spear +1 (including kontos, sarissa, xyston)
- dagger +0.25
- longsword, kopis +1.5
- rhomphaia +2
- sling +0.1
- simple bow +0.25
- recurve bow +0.5
- javelins +0.5
- longchai +1.0
- pila/soliferra +1.5
- axe +0.75
- club +0.5

D: 2 through 3 based on green through elite
2 = levy/green and skirmishers
2.25 = militia-type units, drafted regionals, or semi-professionals
2.5 = regular
2.75 = veteran
3 = elite

F: Number of men in unit on normal setting

H: horse type
Camel = 5.5
Pony = 6
Horse = 7
Nisaean = 8
1/2 barding = +2
3/4 barding = +3
full barding = +4

Equation:
cost = F[D(A+B+C+H)]

Upkeep is 3/16ths of recruitment cost.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Thanks for the info, QS, I've must have overseen it. It adresses my doubts about Phillip and thyreos reforms. Looks very good. I think you've mentioned that elites will be made expensive so I think there'll be a slight increase in the higher D-values?

[QuintusSertorius]

Nope, elite costs aren't changing.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Nope, elite costs aren't changing.

I'm 100% sure you've written once that you won't make all the units more expensive but the elites - yes. Anyway, I haven't bookmarked it and I can't find it now. What doesn't matter, after all.
Thanks for the info.

[nvm]

How do you derive the prices for elephants, chariots, siege engines? What counts as elite unit for Romans besides Pedites Extraordinarii?

[QuintusSertorius]

How do you derive the prices for elephants, chariots, siege engines? What counts as elite unit for Romans besides Pedites Extraordinarii?

They're made up; the formula is for all the regular units, infantry and cavalry. Chariots are loosely based on cavalry, but the other two don't have anything concrete.

The Romans also have Evocatii and Antesignani.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Quintus, I've got a technical question: do you introduce the EDU file from a spreadsheet file or manually? I'm asking to know if making the changes to the prices is easy or laborious. If it's easy then it'd be possible to make minimod for those who prefer higher prices...

[QuintusSertorius]

All done entirely manually, entry-by-entry.

[wojtekimbier]

That's too bad you have to change the file manually, I'm sure someone can write a simple script to make it 100x faster (I can't though). I have changed EDU unit sizes in the past and it's a pain.

[Jurand of Cracow]

i think it's rather easy to change EDU by multipling by X - tmodelsk made it for SSHIP here. It would be indeed nice if somebody would make a stand-alone program allowing to change any EDU in such a way.

[Hirtius]

The formula looks amazing and works really well. I really do love it, it feels really balanced. I do think that you could change the formula and reduce the levy multipliers. It’s not that big of a deal because I rarely use levies anyways, but it would feel more fair to them.

[QuintusSertorius]

Levies are always free upkeep units, so the apparent upkeep is much lower when they're stationed in a settlement. Which is the best place for them.