Cleopatra's endgame: what did she really hope to accomplish with Mark Antony?

[Roma_Victrix]

Since our resident expert has retired or gone on vacation, I'll take it upon myself to remind everyone that this common usage of "Nubian" is anachronistic. The Nubians first arrived in the Fourth Century CE with the collapse of the Meroitic kingdom.

/pedantry

Saying "Nubian" is so much easier, though, Sumskilz. It's easier than saying "the Kerma culture of Bronze Age Sudan that was conquered by New Kingdom Egypt, Egyptianized, and morphed into the Kushites centered at Napata and Meroe that briefly conquered Egypt under the 25th dynasty". Doesn't roll of the tongue or fit into a single Tweet quite like the one word phrasing, Nubians.

Well, the conflict with Carthage was inevitable.We may regret that carnivorous animals are not vegetarians, but Polybius explains the carnivorous nature of the Roman Republic, an aggressive power trying to achieve the domination of the centre of the word- the "medi-terraneous",

The Punic Wars are a great example of why the Romans decided to settle on expansionism, because the threat of Carthage was too great and they couldn't avoid the risk of being a second-rate power to it. Perhaps the First Punic War could have been avoided, but the Second Punic War was arguably unavoidable. Once Hannibal secured Iberia, whether Rome decided to declare war or not, Hannibal was gunning for the Romans since childhood with the stories passed down by his father. He would have most likely invaded Italy anyway, or provoked the Romans to declare war in another way, by attacking their allies in southern Gaul, such as the Greek colony of Massalia.

Excellent points have already been made, though, about why Rome was different under the First and Second Triumvirates of the 1st century BC, as opposed to the earlier phases of the Roman Republic that saw more gradual expansion due to reactions to immediate crises. If you think about it, Rome really only got involved reluctantly in Greece because Philip V of Macedon had the bright idea to directly ally with Hannibal of Carthage. Rome had previously been attacked by Pyrrhos of Epeiros just decades before this, so the threat of a Greek power conquering Magna Graecia in southern Italy wasn't some "pie in the sky" idea. They viewed Philip as a legitimate threat, not just something across the Adriatic Sea that they never had to worry about.

In the case of Cleopatra VII, she was very unique in that she was basically the only client ruler of the Republican period to possess so much clout within the Roman system. Had she ultimately succeeded, her children would have been monarchs of large Roman client kingdoms throughout West Asia, Cyprus and Libya, and their Roman parentage would have ensured their safety more or less. However, the reason why so many soldiers and officers even before the Battle of Actium started to desert Antony and flock to Octavian's side was because of the rather unpopular moves by Antony to carve up the Roman east in this way, cementing a personal and indirect rule over the eastern part of the Roman world through his royal children. Octavian ultimately won over the Romans not just by having Agrippa win the battles, but by dressing up his arguments in a comforting republican facade.

[Diocle]

.. What was Cleopatra’s endgame? In my view, it can be interpreted in her suicide rather than surrender to Octavian. She chose to save face and protect her power and personality cult at all costs, choosing to die from the bite of an Asp, a symbol of both royalty and divine presence. Thus, even in death Cleopatra sought to her elevate power. And given her fame and martyrdom, she succeeded.

Great post, I quoted the point about which I agree more, but in my opinion Cleopatra was smart and wise enough to realize that, with Octavian, the age of hellenistic protectorates & petty kingdoms had come to an end.

Octavian was one of the most deeply hypocritical men in Rome's history, he was building an empire and he presented it as the salvation of the ancient aristocratic republic, he was founding this new political, ideological and religious building on a radically new Imperial Cult of deified Emperors and for this reason he revived all the most ancient and obscure religious traditions of Rome; he presented himself as 'par inter pares' in Senate, just young noble senator among noble senators, but at the same time, he turned the Roman legions into a permanet standing force of professional soldiers, a modern powerful political tool for supporting his own political leadership, his own family's interests (very Italian style), and his own political part! Octavian presented himself as a man of peace, but actually he conquered and butchered more countries and more peoples than Caesar himself (very American style). Octavian was the sculpted image of hypocrisy, because actually he was the sculpted monument of what politics actually is: a almost scientific tecnique of conquering and managing the power.



Sadly for Cleopatra (and few other relicts of another age), in the case of the Eastern Hellenistic Kingdoms, Octavian's policy was not hypocrital: once for all, their time had come to an end. In the new globalized and centralized political system of Octavian, there was no nore room for the romantic dream of Alexander and his naive, colorful and squabbling heirs. Cleopatra fought against this conception in the name of a glorious past, and once she realized that that past was now ended, she left the scene (in a pretty stilish way, I'd say.) of a play in which she had no more any role to play.

[sumskilz]

Saying "Nubian" is so much easier, though, Sumskilz. It's easier than saying "the Kerma culture of Bronze Age Sudan that was conquered by New Kingdom Egypt, Egyptianized, and morphed into the Kushites centered at Napata and Meroe that briefly conquered Egypt under the 25th dynasty". Doesn't roll of the tongue or fit into a single Tweet quite like the one word phrasing, Nubians.

Lately I've been hearing hipster Egyptologists use the generic Egyptian term for southern foreigners - Neḥesi (plural Neḥesu), but I'm guessing it won't catch on as the generic term in plain English due to the fact that it has the Afroasiatic clearing phlegm from the throat ḥ sound.

[Cyclops]

Lately I've been hearing hipster Egyptologists use the generic Egyptian term for southern foreigners - Neḥesi (plural Neḥesu), but I'm guessing it won't catch on as the generic term in plain English due to the fact that it has the Afroasiatic clearing phlegm from the throat ḥ sound.

Maybe blow crumbs down their throats when they speak, see if that ḥelps?

[Common Soldier]

Lately I've been hearing hipster Egyptologists use the generic Egyptian term for southern foreigners - Neḥesi (plural Neḥesu), but I'm guessing it won't catch on as the generic term in plain English due to the fact that it has the Afroasiatic clearing phlegm from the throat ḥ sound.

Also. Nehesu doesn't mean anything to anyone outside those hipster Egyptologist. Whether achronistic or not,when you say Nubia, most people.will.know what you mean, you don't have to be an Egyptologist to understand what is meant.