The latest anti-liberal rant thread (get your daily dose here)

[Sir Adrian]

I just quoted what the self-professed feminist author wrote, who in turn quoted Macron and the french authorities, the OP belongs to the New York Times truth be told. However nowadays feminism and racial justice are extremely intertwined, with very few people following only one of those. You will not see a BLM activist saying feminism is cancer and you won't hear a feminist speak against BLM.

The time when feminism was just about women's rights and equality of opportunity is long passed, feminism has stopped being about rights altogether once gender theory came into being and the feminist movement was hijacked by the tqia+ community. In fact gender theory and critical race theory are basically the same thing applied to two separate parameters and the two concepts often intertwine.

It's good that you want to take a more nuanced approach, a lot of people lack nuance nowadays, however the french and the article do not talk about feminism from the perspective of rights and obligations but about new feminist theory as part of the 5th column humanities theory that has infiltrated American academia and the threat it can post to education.


tl;dr Feminism is no longer an independent current but a part of something bigger. The feminism you are referring to is something else than what the article is talking about.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Major threat? Meh, I doubt it. First time I read about critical race theory was today in Wikipedia. I doubt many have heard of it or its various offshoots in France, so they sound as relevant as the QAnon conspiracists. So, their criticism on colonialism and the shady pages of the nation's history seems silly and childish, relying too much on the narrative of nationalists about the role and impact of ethnic divisions. I'm fine with criticising, but going full hysterical and blame a fringe theory for all our misfortunes, past and present seems a tad hysterical. I'm a student in France and the only experience that could relate to what Macron is warning us about is a dispute with a Kanak chauvinist, who argued for the ethnic cleansing of New Caledonia in a manner that would ressemble Haiti's methods. A few minutes later he was removed by the student union, as such polemic and toxic discourse is banned in the university.

Oh, there was also a female student that falsely accused a couple of male teenagers of verbally, physically and sexually attacking her. She turned out to be a far-right activist, whose objective was to fuel sectarian hatred, so I don't think it qualifies as a case of "woke leftism". It was pretty funny, though, she even bruised her own eye to convince the authorities about the truthfulness her misfortunes. So, yeah, it looks like Macron is fishing for ultra-conservative votes, preparing himself for the onslaught of the presidential elections. A bit embarrassing, to be honest, since, if I remember correctly, it was Macron that called for a creative restoration of the Notre Dame cathedral and not Bezmenov's little red men. I don't think it's a viable strategy, since Marine excels in the domain, so the only thing Macron achieved is to legitimise her narrative by a making a mountain out of a molehill. If he's worried about work-class voters in rural Picardy, he should try handling the pandemic crisis more professionally and treating the plebs with slightly less contempt.

I wouldn't expect any Marxists to really care that much about the results of individual stories of the lives ruined by the fabricated lies pushed by leftists - the false rape victims and false hate crime victims. Those proven to be lying about their victimhood status seem to never face any serious consequences. If you are a student in France and this sort of pestilence has made its way there, you'd do well to document your whereabouts and BAC at every given moment. Failure to do so could result in litigation that, even if you are innocent, could cost you untold amounts, foreclose your studies, and leave you completely bereft.

Critical race theory has other moronic side effects though.

[VINC.XXIII]

Rest of the piece here https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/09/w...versities.html

Personally I think the French are right. Your nation's future is only as good as the education of it's current youth, and we have seen how identity politics have completely collapsed the quality of university education in the United States. What do you think?

Ethnicization of the debate is something that cannot be avoided In a more and more diverse society. Growth of islam and this "ethnicization" are both consequences of the demography.

However I don't think the old mix of jacobinism, color blind universalism, atheism, was that better. This is just a toxic ideology being replaced by another.

This political class who carried the color blind universalism is slowly being pushed out by new elites from their beloved Diversity.

Follow what is actually happening in Trappes, where this exact type of french atheist, universalist, a philosophy teacher, who all his life has preached the Living-Together, is now guarded by anti riots cops and some personal bodyguards. He said he gave up, he's seriously threatened from what he said.

As such, these peoples lived for decades from the moral and cultural oppression of the european masses.

Impious and foreigns to the benevolence of their ancestors.

[antaeus]

I just quoted what the self-professed feminist author wrote, who in turn quoted Macron and the french authorities, the OP belongs to the New York Times truth be told. However nowadays feminism and racial justice are extremely intertwined, with very few people following only one of those. You will not see a BLM activist saying feminism is cancer and you won't hear a feminist speak against BLM.

The time when feminism was just about women's rights and equality of opportunity is long passed, feminism has stopped being about rights altogether once gender theory came into being and the feminist movement was hijacked by the tqia+ community. In fact gender theory and critical race theory are basically the same thing applied to two separate parameters and the two concepts often intertwine.

It's good that you want to take a more nuanced approach, a lot of people lack nuance nowadays, [/B] however the french and the article do not talk about feminism from the perspective of rights and obligations but about new feminist theory as part of the 5th column humanities theory that has infiltrated American academia and the threat it can post to education.


tl;dr Feminism is no longer an independent current but a part of something bigger. The feminism you are referring to is something else than what the article is talking about.

I think what you're trying to refer to is "intersectionality"

But in amongst your weasel words and snap judgements you mistake what it means. It means that a person might have a negative experience not just because of one factor, but because of a combination of multiple factors, or because of several different factors impacting individually in different ways. This suggests that conversations about perceptions of social justice have many factors to understand, not that there is only one social justice to discuss. This doesn't mean that the conversation has reduced to one single discussion about "woke", it means that your understanding of the discussion has either deliberately or unintentionally reduced it to "woke" because it is easier to debate against. There can be feminist authors who express opinion on race as a separate but related topic.

[Pontifex Maximus]

^ god this is such a tired argument. Since you insist on making it, let's break things down and have this discussion. Where on the hierarchy pyramid of victim are you? Give me your bona fides.

[antaeus]

^ god this is such a tired argument. Since you insist on making it, let's break things down and have this discussion. Where on the hierarchy pyramid of victim are you? Give me your bona fides.

Dude. I'm white, male, well employed with benefits, insured, I own multiple passports, I live in a country with super high living standards... My victim status is that it's 92°F outside and I have no aircon in my work-from-home office...

[Pontifex Maximus]

Lol, before I post further I have to ask you - is that really the case? Like unironic bro

[antaeus]

Lol, before I post further I have to ask you - is that really the case? Like unironic bro

Technically, I have a tower fan. But that's just pushing around clammy warm air.

Proceed.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Your have such a healthy appreciation for irony and sarcasm, how can you be this wrong??

Dude. I'm white, male, well employed with benefits, insured, I own multiple passports, I live in a country with super high living standards... My victim status is that it's 92°F outside and I have no aircon in my work-from-home office...

You must understand how these attributes diminish the ideological argument among your own wokeist position. Nobody is interested in what some cisgender white dude has to say about anything.

I think what you're trying to refer to is "intersectionality"

Can't wait to hear about what a cisgender white man has to say about intersectionality. My popcorn, please.

But in amongst your weasel words and snap judgements you mistake what it means. It means that a person might have a negative experience not just because of one factor, but because of a combination of multiple factors, or because of several different factors impacting individually in different ways. This suggests that conversations about perceptions of social justice have many factors to understand, not that there is only one

social justice to discuss. This doesn't mean that the conversation has reduced to one single discussion about "woke", it means that your understanding of the discussion has either deliberately or unintentionally reduced it to "woke" because it is easier to debate against. There can be feminist authors who express opinion on race as a separate but related topic.

Please detail, as you insist on white knighting, these "conversations." You are engaging in nothing short of virtue signaling in the most lazy way in order to advertise your progressive bona fides. Explain to me as an intersectional victim, which I am in your world view, how I might rely on you to save me. I'm waiting?

[antaeus]

Your have such a healthy appreciation for irony and sarcasm, how can you be this wrong??

You must understand how these attributes diminish the ideological argument among your own wokeist position. Nobody is interested in what some cisgender white dude has to say about anything.

Can't wait to hear about what a cisgender white man has to say about intersectionality. My popcorn, please.

Please detail, as you insist on white knighting, these "conversations." You are engaging in nothing short of virtue signaling in the most lazy way in order to advertise your progressive bona fides. Explain to me as an intersectional victim, which I am in your world view, how I might rely on you to save me. I'm waiting?

Before I reply to this I have to point out that you haven't actually given me anything to debate against except accusations of my lacking empathy. Is that what you intended?

[Pontifex Maximus]

Yawn. Let me know to the extent, at all, you wish me to qualify your response. You backed yourself into this corner. You lack the intersecitonal bona fides to comment on the issues you hold dear without drowning out the voices of those same precious, intersectional voices you claim to hold dear.

You see, I've backed you into a corner where you are damned if you do but especially damned if you don't. Your leftist friends will give you a pass but for the rest of us rational thinkers, we will be laughing at your blatant and demonstrable hypocrisy.

[antaeus]

Yawn. Let me know to the extent, at all, you wish me to qualify your response. You backed yourself into this corner. You lack the intersecitonal bona fides to comment on the issues you hold dear without drowning out the voices of those same precious, intersectional voices you claim to hold dear.

You see, I've backed you into a corner where you are damned if you do but especially damned if you don't. Your leftist friends will give you a pass but for the rest of us rational thinkers, we will be laughing at your blatant and demonstrable hypocrisy.

Actually, I described, in a very lose way, what intersectionality is, for my fellow debater, who had assembled a hodgepodge of ideas all into a big ball of fluff.

Everything else here since, including this mysterious corner I am in? and my seeming lack of empathy? is sarcastically facetious tête-à-tête.

[sumskilz]

I have to say, the word "woke" is right up there with "PC gone mad" for me.

The word isn't a pejorative, if that's what you're thinking. It's a popular self-ascription for people who adhere to critical race theory ideology. Ironically, use of the word by white people should be considered cultural appropriation according to the ideology itself.

Which is not to suggest that the word can't be uttered with contempt. It does seem to function well enough as a pejorative for those opposed to the ideology that suggested alternatives like "neo-racist" haven't really caught on.

[Lord Thesaurian]

The word isn't a pejorative, if that's what you're thinking. It's a popular self-ascription for people who adhere to critical race theory ideology. Ironically, use of the word by white people should be considered cultural appropriation according to the ideology itself.

Which is not to suggest that the word can't be uttered with contempt. It does seem to function well enough as a pejorative for those opposed to the ideology that suggested alternatives like "neo-racist" haven't really caught on.

Literally though lol

Words such as “lit,” “woke,” “bae,” “ratchet,” “sis,” “slay, “hella, “ or “basic,” and phrases such as “straight up,” “on fleek,” “I feel you,” or “turn up,” have become common sayings that are often misused or overly emphasized. These words are visible online through reaction GIFs, social media posts, and in journalism to name a few (see image right). BVE is used by companies on social media, and in advertising and marketing as an attempt to appeal to the “younger audience.” If many of these words or phrases simply sound like internet or social media lingo, it demonstrates the extent to which the appropriation of BVE by non-Black communities has accelerated exponentially in the age of the internet.

https://www.feminuity.org/blog/using...-appropriation

[Knight of Heaven]

I have to say, the word "woke" is right up there with "PC gone mad" for me. When used in this context, all it makes me want to do is to "gouge out their eyes with a spoon, and replace them with slices of cake"

Use of terms like this strip the conversation of subtlety and context and lump a whole array of different but parallel conversations into one big confusing blob that can be dismissed together with the wave of a hand.

But that is the thing, today all this things are viewed trough a lens of post modernist philosophy, like Intersectionality, and critical theory.

Where the dynamics of oppression and privilege of individuals are analyzed and credited, by their group identity, instead of their individual experiences. The individual is put aside, to give priority to their in group identity, whatever that might be. ( usually, gender, caste, sex, race, class, sexuality, religion, disability, physical appearance, and height etc)

So basically what you are advocating for, in treating each oppressive factor in isolation, ( which i agree) is actually the the biggest criticism of post modern intersectionality, and critical theories ( in other words wokeness.

For example, what intersactionality or wokeness is saying, is the discrimination against black women could be explained away as only a simple sum of the discrimination against black men and the discrimination against white women.
Which imo is shortsighted, and simply not accurate. And imo this kind of ideologies propagate division and tribalism in the societies they tend to be prominent.

Unfortunally this theories today dominate the social sciences in academia in the US (not only the US btw), and are teached as facts to students via new disciplines, like women, gender and race studies classes, this then translates to other facets of culture, from social media, journalism, entertainment and other institutions that affect local culture etc.

In academia in the US there has been cancellation on campus of lectures and such, and outright censuring of certain academics, comedians, and thinkers that have critique of this philosophies or simply make considered offensive jokes ( in case of stand up comedians), and are quickly branded in a cynic way as opposing the oppressed minority groups according to intersectionality perspective of course ( even when some of this people are part of those identity groups so called opressed.
People who are critics of this, like Camilia Paglia, karen straughan,Janice Fiamengo, Jordan peterson, Slavoj Zizek, Spheten hicks, Bret Weinstein, figures like keri Smith and Douglas Murray and so on.

I particular enjoy this debate

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[alhoon]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/elon-univ...tes-only-event

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. A group of students in a university wanted to have an event to educate white people about their complicity in unjust systems and how that perpetuates racism etc etc. You know, woke crap and ways for some people to feel they are better than others. But free Speech and all. So, stupid, but their right to be idiots.
What the University did? They cancelled the event because it excluded non-whites! A seminar about how to not be racist was considered... racist.

[Pontifex Maximus]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/elon-univ...tes-only-event

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. A group of students in a university wanted to have an event to educate white people about their complicity in unjust systems and how that perpetuates racism etc etc. You know, woke crap and ways for some people to feel they are better than others. But free Speech and all. So, stupid, but their right to be idiots.
What the University did? They cancelled the event because it excluded non-whites! A seminar about how to not be racist was considered... racist.

Well you know what they say: You can't have your racist non-racist cake and eat your non-racist but racist cake too.

[Knight of Heaven]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/elon-univ...tes-only-event

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. A group of students in a university wanted to have an event to educate white people about their complicity in unjust systems and how that perpetuates racism etc etc. You know, woke crap and ways for some people to feel they are better than others. But free Speech and all. So, stupid, but their right to be idiots.
What the University did? They cancelled the event because it excluded non-whites! A seminar about how to not be racist was considered... racist.

Aren't they teaching this in companies and schools. About white privilege and such?!


Footage of the processing of white people in that event.

[mishkin]

You are obsessed with a dystopian future in which whites are mistreated. I guess that's a good strategy to ignore ... white privilege

[Sir Adrian]

White privilege doesn't even make sense outside parts of the US.