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Thread: Ecovandals get prison sentence

  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Ecovandals get prison sentence

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/cl...on/ar-AA13Fc0J

    The gist: The two men that tried to bring attention to climate change by vandalizing a famous painting, got a prison sentence.

    First thing first, I believe climate change is real and is the worst problem of our generation, easily bigger than China, Russia-Ukraine and the Middle East combined. I believe it is something that will, in 20 years, make life on earth much worse than it is now.

    That said the prosecutor said:
    "An artwork hanging there for all, for all of us, to enjoy, has been smeared by defendants who felt their message took precedence over everything else,"

    I partially agree with the prosecutor. Indeed those two tree-huggers thought their message took precedence over everything else. However, deep down, I think they did it to bring attention to themselves not to their message. Sure, they wanted (in part) to generate discussion through their barbaric actions. But I believe they also wanted to generate discussion about themselves, seeking their 15-seconds of fame.

    While eco-terrorists are trying to draw the public eye on themselves by acts of vandalism that thankfully haven't permanently destroyed any piece of art instead of mass shootings like troubled teenagers do, this is a serious issue. I find that 2 months sentence, 1 of which is suspended, is a slap to the hand.

    Furthermore, this is what the rest of the eco-vandals in their group have to say:
    "Isn't it ironic that climate activists who nonviolently oppose the mass slaughter of life on Earth are being condemned?", the group said in an email."

    No, it isn't ironic. What is ironic in my opinion is that these idiots think that vandalizing paint and drawing attention will do anything to help the destruction of our planet. The others of the group should be investigated for any help their provided to the three perpetrators and charges should be pressed.


    What the rest of the community thinks? Has the attempt draw attention to the cause of these activists and was it the right kind of attention or they just hurt the name of real climate activists? Was the sentence too light or too harsh? Should the rest of that group be investigated for helping to plan such an act of vandalism?
    Last edited by alhoon; November 03, 2022 at 05:58 PM.
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  2. #2
    Praeses
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    So they tried to generate noise in the news cycle to attract attention to their issue. Not sure if they have done lasting damage to anything yet, although someone glued their head to something in the last day or say.

    Ethically I rate the Mona Lisa below the life of my pet, and my pet below pretty much any human life. It's just a thing made by a guy for another guy. The perspex shields getting installed everywhere (after a previous spate of attacks TBH) use oil, so....

    Are these people the Taliban? They're not killing people yet. We had a Picasso stolen in Melbourne to highlight Arts Funding issues, it was returned with no consequences AFAIK.

    Bonus conspiracy theory Vlad has activated his Blue Haired infiltrators to distract from Ukraine.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #3
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Vlad would be the first to be harmed from cut to oil.
    "Ethically I rate the Mona Lisa below the life of my pet, and my pet below pretty much any human life." <== you are not saving any life though by vandalizing Mona Liza.

    "Are these people the Taliban?" <== Not really, no. It's not just the violence. But they are vandals never the less.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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    Praeses
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Yes private property matters but im not going to call for a serious punishment because a painting had its perspex cover danaged. My cultural values arent sacred to the point symbolic damage to a bit of art gets my blood up.

    This is a discussion for the propaganda spacecrather than criminal justice for mine.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    IMHO protesters generally know very well when their actions are in violation of the law. It's the price they pay for drawing attention to themselves and their cause. I don't think anyone would seriously have expected to be excused. The activists will have anticipated a conviction and the resulting opportunity to voice indignation is just part of the script. At the end of the day, they damaged a glass plate and temporarily denied access to a culturally significant museum piece. The latter probably being the main reason for a prison sentence.

    Personally I find more interesting the question whether it was an effective means of drawing attention to a cause. And I really don't think it is, because of who the protest is directed at: the general public. It's them telling people like you and me "if you are so upset about us damaging something as unique, fragile and irreplaceable as a painting, why are you not upset about climate change?". The main reason it's antagonizing IMHO is because it is symbolically irrelevant. They are no more a victim than I and if I turn down my thermostat or take the bike instead of a car, I have undeniably done more for the cause than they have by gluing their ear to a glass plate and obstructing our view. It triggers the "who are you to tell me ...." reaction. It's presumptuous. It's dumb.
    Last edited by Muizer; November 04, 2022 at 06:08 AM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    They are very young people whose future we have inevitably screwed up with our greed and unconsciousness. I am surprised that they are not burning museums just out of rage, leaving aside any messages/activism.

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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    They are very young people whose future we have inevitably screwed up with our greed and unconsciousness. I am surprised that they are not burning museums just out of rage, leaving aside any messages/activism.
    Burning museums release greenhouse effect gases.

    Also, we have screwed our future too, not just theirs. Just because they will live 10 years more than us in the screwed up future doesn't give them much of a disadvantage. Also, note that I say 10 years more, not 25 years more. Life expectancy will inevitably drop as we regress to 3rd-world dystopias in 20 years.
    Only Canada, Alaska, Scandinavia and Russia will see prosperity. You better start buying property up North, now that the prices are cheap.
    Last edited by alhoon; November 04, 2022 at 07:25 AM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    They are very young people whose future we have inevitably screwed up with our greed and unconsciousness.
    Nah they screwed their own future by committing a heinous crime.
    You are unhappy with government and laws? Then go mess with politicians and government officials that are the reason behind it. What does painting have to do with anything?

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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Nah they screwed their own future by committing a heinous crime.
    You are unhappy with government and laws? Then go mess with politicians and government officials that are the reason behind it. What does painting have to do with anything?
    "Heinous"? maybe you're exaggerating a bit?

    They have chosen this type of action to draw the attention of society and, with some adverse side effects, they have succeeded. What do you propose, attacks on those politicians who can be held responsible?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    "Heinous"? maybe you're exaggerating a bit?

    They have chosen this type of action to draw the attention of society and, with some adverse side effects, they have succeeded. What do you propose, attacks on those politicians who can be held responsible?
    I think latter is less of a crime then the former. Attacking works of art or any other historical artefacts intentionally should be considered a severe crime, a crime against humanity, even.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    They are very young people whose future we have inevitably screwed up with our greed and unconsciousness.
    Is that the accepted interpretation of reality now? That the end is so nigh that people now in their twenties already have their "future" ruined. Although they are prosperous and safe enough to be worried about microaggressions and demand safe spaces so they don't have to deal with opposing opinions.

    I think we may have a mental health crisis in our hands primarily. Feeding the young people with this imminent end of the world narrative is clearly taking a heavy toll on them.

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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Is that the accepted interpretation of reality now? That the end is so nigh that people now in their twenties already have their "future" ruined. Although they are prosperous and safe enough to be worried about microaggressions and demand safe spaces so they don't have to deal with opposing opinions.
    They will experience massive water shortages and natural disasters because of the refusal of previous generations to act. It seems to me the most normal thing to be enraged, and not at all incompatible with continuing the fight against machismo, homophobia, decent working conditions, etc.

    If it bothers you that there are people who care only (100& of their "activist life") about machismo and not at all about the deterioration of the planet, that we should all have the same priorities, that has never happened. If this were the case, decades ago we would have found cures for all types of cancer, provided vaccines for any epidemic, ensured access to housing and health for all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I think we may have a mental health crisis in our hands primarily. Feeding the young people with this imminent end of the world narrative is clearly taking a heavy toll on them.
    "feeding them" in the sense of making them swallow or in the sense of keeping them informed? I am 100% in favor of mental care, but if i understand well what you say, sounds like recommending a psychologist to an abused person at home (ok) forgetting that the main problem is that he lives with an abuser (the main thing is to do something about the latter).

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Personal note: 47 years old and extremely happy that my parents and uncles will not suffer from climate change and that I dont have children. And I find it incredible that people with children are not also tremendously enraged with the situation.
    Last edited by mishkin; November 05, 2022 at 05:01 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    I am just honestly worried about how that sort of distress about climate change is affecting them, particularly when they are "fed" (as I formulated it) things that aren't necessarily even true. I think it was Michael Mann who said that "climate fiction" overstating the effects of climate change is just as harmful as denialism. Also specialists in our country have expressed their concern over what is going on and called for a change of tone in climate reporting. To stress responsibility and positive environmental acts to improve our condition instead of competing in who can conjure up the gloomiest doomsday vision.

    I do get why you refer to keeping people informed. It is hard to get a sense of urgency into people when something bad is about to happen. I've seen that in small things and we may be witnessing it now on a grand scale.

    EDIT: Michael E. Mann, the climate scientist. Not the director.
    Last edited by Septentrionalis; November 05, 2022 at 07:33 AM.

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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    EDIT: Michael E. Mann, the climate scientist. Not the director.
    Yes, I thought you were talking about the director and I was about to recommend you Paul Schrader's First Reformed. (not a great movie in my opinion, but it reflects the anguish of these times).

    As always when I am accused of pessimism, I will be delighted to be wrong and if during these years we have been lied to when we have been told that there was a consensus in the scientific community that the situation is very serious, I hope they (the big media and "the scientific community") correct it.


    Right now

    Activists glue themselves to Goya paintings in Spanish climate protest

    As usual, the work itself has not been damaged. I reiterate my understanding for their activity, criticized and ridiculed by almost everyone, including more established environmental groups.
    Last edited by mishkin; November 05, 2022 at 11:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Are these people the Taliban? They're not killing people yet.
    There is no end of supply of people.

    Yet, we can hardly blame them. It's the only achievement these two idiots will be remembered for, among a population of billions who live and perish silently like ants.

    Well done!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I will be delighted to be wrong and if during these years we have been lied to when we have been told that there was a consensus in the scientific community that the situation is very serious, I hope they (the big media and "the scientific community") correct it.
    If you meant that as a way of discrediting what I said, I don't think it is a helpful way to react. Although I get that you are frustrated about lack of action to prevent a climate catastrophy.

    It just cannot be so that if climate change is serious, it means that any statements, no matter how wild, can be said about its detrimental effects to life here on Earth without anyone having the right to object. I don't think that many mainstream climate scientist say that the present generations' lives will be ruined by it.

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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    According to what the news tells us and what we can see in our day to day, things have already changed a lot and in twenty years natural disasters and water shortages, with all that this entails will be even more common. If there is a scientific debate on this matter, those who think that these changes are not so serious are losing it. For my part, no intention of ending this debate or silencing any party. and I repeat that I would love for this not to be a great crisis

    the spanish activists responding to criticism they are receiving; "If you don't like how we protest, you go on and protest in the way you consider most appropriate".
    Last edited by mishkin; November 05, 2022 at 02:17 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    According to what the news tells us and what we can see in our day to day, things have already changed a lot and in twenty years natural disasters and water shortages, with all that this entails will be even more common.
    Perhaps in Spain things look more pressing due to its combination of a large agricultural sector and relative scarcity of fresh water. I am aware of the droughts there and by no means callous to any issues you suffer.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    If there is a scientific debate on this matter, those who think that these changes are not so serious are losing it.
    I don't think there is a competition going on, though. What I am trying to say is that the kind of overreacting that the likes of Al Gore have engaged in is detrimental to maintaining credibility in climate prognoses.

  19. #19
    Ältester der Motten's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Vandalism is always a misguided attempt at bringing attention to issues, unless it is directly aimed at institutes or individuals directly involved in this. Vandalism of humanity's cultual treasures is the lowest form of vandalism too. By this virtue destroying masterwork paintings is little better than ISIS smashing ancient statues and pottery (though iirc most of those were replicas of originals stored in the vaults). There are plenty of ways to draw attention to legitimate issues. If you choose the worst ones, it just makes you look like a donkey.

    But we can see it already inspired a lot of fellow donkeys into action, so I fear they will understand this as a sign of successfully drawing attention to their cause and and keep doing it. But if anything will cause a backlash against eco-activism, it's this kind of rubbish. Eco groups should condemn these more than anyone else, to ensure people understand they're not one and the same mind.

    That makes me wonder, what happened to the BLM vandals in Britain tearing down and smearing statues?

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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Ecovandals get prison sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by Ältester der Motten View Post

    That makes me wonder, what happened to the BLM vandals in Britain tearing down and smearing statues?
    By and large, they were glorified as heroes by the progressives and people that spoke out against them occasionally found themselves fired and looking for a job.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
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    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

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