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Thread: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

  1. #21
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    I want to stay away from this thread if I can, but I should point out that Brexit is more complex than a product of right wing populism. The British Left and Centre has a long history of Euroscepticism. Indeed, the leader of the Labour Party is a Eurosceptic while the Leader of the Tories is a lifelong remainer. However, both compromise their personal views for political reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  2. #22

    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Facts like "magic works"? Or "there's a lizard people conspiracy to replace white people with black people because [thumbs copy of Mein Kampf] ...the Jews....something something".

    Right wing populism has no staying power. In Spain Franco wrecked the economy and was kept in place by a regime of terror. In Germany Hitler crashed the economy and broke the country in pieces (oh and inb4 idiotic comments like "but the Nazis who hated Socialism were actually Socialists, just ignore everything Hitler ever said"). In Great Britain the Brexit insurrection is stuck in the committee stage. Trumps massive swamp-draining war-stopping is about to start a war in a Middle Eastern country twice the size of Iraq for the benefit of Saudi Arabia and the Koch Brothers (oddly neither of them will be serving in the occupation forces).

    The far right lives off fear, just like the far left. If OP is living in LaLa land if he thinks one side or the other are heroes.
    What you call ''far right'' is merely standard conservativism that has been around for centuries. What has been around for 30 years only is a bunch of entitled, self-serving, masochistic, delusional, superficial, miopic, fraudolent, treacherous, corrupt elite that childishly blames its own failures on Russia every time it gets a thoroughly deserved electoral kick in the teeth.
    If the definition of insanity is going the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, then clearly voting for drunkard Juncker is a good example of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I want to stay away from this thread if I can, but I should point out that Brexit is more complex than a product of right wing populism. The British Left and Centre has a long history of Euroscepticism. Indeed, the leader of the Labour Party is a Eurosceptic while the Leader of the Tories is a lifelong remainer. However, both compromise their personal views for political reason.
    Everything that's going on is pretty much beyond the traditional right vs left division. It's the people vs the elite. Patriots against traitors. End of the story.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; May 20, 2019 at 06:29 PM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Facts like "magic works"? Or "there's a lizard people conspiracy to replace white people with black people because [thumbs copy of Mein Kampf] ...the Jews....something something".
    Strawman much?
    Right wing populism has no staying power. In Spain Franco wrecked the economy and was kept in place by a regime of terror. In Germany Hitler crashed the economy and broke the country in pieces (oh and inb4 idiotic comments like "but the Nazis who hated Socialism were actually Socialists, just ignore everything Hitler ever said").
    In Great Britain the Brexit insurrection is stuck in the committee stage. Trumps massive swamp-draining war-stopping is about to start a war in a Middle Eastern country twice the size of Iraq for the benefit of Saudi Arabia and the Koch Brothers (oddly neither of them will be serving in the occupation forces).
    The fact that you unironically list UK population's democratic decision to leave EU as "insurrection" and on same list as Hitler and Franco just goes to prove my point even further about nature of cosmopolitan elites being.. both traitorous and rather irrational. Not to mention that they are detached not only from the population of countries that they gerrymandered their way into governing, but also from reality itself. And when a politician that represents your ideas blames electorate instead of himself for losing an election, you might want to start looking for someone else. Your comrades don't seem to understand that.
    The far right lives off fear, just like the far left. If OP is living in LaLa land if he thinks one side or the other are heroes.
    So in that case, why is that the so-called "moderates" and supporters of "status quo" (which isn't really worth supporting unless you are a billionaire or recipient of welfare) are the ones whose whole political program relies on fearmongering about "evil far-right" and Russian boogeyman?

  4. #24
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Everything that's going on is pretty much beyond the traditional right vs left division. It's the people vs the elite. Patriots against traitors. End of the story.
    You realise you’re doing more harm than good for the causes you claim to support by making threads with these off-the-rails premises?

    The people is the electorate. The people are not of one political voice. The only time that we reasonably can say ‘the people’ is probably about directly democratic referendums.

    If your chosen party claims to speak for all the ‘people’, that implies they know better than the ‘people’ that don’t support them. I thought elites believing they knew better than voters was elitism?

    It’s also sort of an identitarian group based argument devoid of good ideas.

    As for patriots vs traitors, almost everyone does what they think is best for their country. So in that way they are patriotic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  5. #25

    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    You realise you’re doing more harm than good for the causes you claim to support by making threads with these off-the-rails premises?
    I'm confident that time will prove me right. I get that you really disagree with my tone, that's fine. The truth of the matter is that the current ''acceptable'' tone is constantly shifted by radicals on the other side. Want evidence? 20 years ago, any discussion of ''Islamophobia'' laws would have been laughed at and bashed as implementing Sharia law. Now the UK is actually discussing it. Why? Because the radicals kept pushing for it, influencing the discourse for decades, finding new ways to argue for it, until you gave them some concessions.

    Another exampe, this time from my side? Brexit. Brexiteers used to be radicals of the Conservative party that quit in the early 90s. They have been around more than 20 years and as things stands right now, they will get what they want, all the way. This is because the moderates aren't able to put together a coherent vision and ultimately rely on appeasing left or right as a path forward. The same goes for the rights of transexuals or pretty much the entirety of the liberal social agenda. Thus it's not sufficient to say no, you have to reverse the course if you want a chance of surviving long term.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The people is the electorate. The people are not of one political voice. The only time that we reasonably can say ‘the people’ is probably about directly democratic referendums.

    If your chosen party claims to speak for all the ‘people’, that implies they know better than the ‘people’ that don’t support them. I thought elites believing they knew better than voters was elitism?
    I voted for 5 Star Movement last year, I will vote Salvini this week, just like many millions of Italians will do. Why? Because the key concept of elections is that you get to change your mind at the next round. Parties can claim to speak for the people, but they have to deliver or they get kicked out. That's the deal. Any party that betrays promises deserves to be wiped out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    It’s also sort of an identitarian group based argument devoid of good ideas.

    As for patriots vs traitors, almost everyone does what they think is best for their country. So in that way they are patriotic.
    No, it's not the case. Those who subscribe to globalism ultimately hate their country. They resent the national identity as something archaic if not outright barbaric to begin with. Talk to them about ''national interest'' and they will tell you it's ''outdated'' and that you shold stop thinking as someone from the 20th century, because only bad things happened during those days. This is mostly result of the cultural homogeinety of the university. Everyone goes through it, thus everyone gets the same ideas: global governance good, national government bad. There's zero serious discussion and it's increasingly getting worse, see the Noah Carl example, but that's merely the tip of the iceberg.

    Further evidence is the outright disdain towards voters that commit the unforgivable sin of ''voting the wrong ones''. This is the case of those who vote Trump, Brexit, Salvini etc. We are all ''ignorant, victims of fake news from Russia, misguided, racist and sexist'' for failing to appreciate the global society that these people built... for themselves. The solution to wrongthink is to polish speech online, because clearly you need a global government to tell you what's right and wrong, the underlying reasoning is that you are a moron who can't think for himself, you need their experts to tell you what's good for you.

    And they hate you anyway. The overwhelming evidence of this is social media behaviour. As I posted in the other thread, the ones who consistently block people or break friendships for the crime of having a different opinion belong to the liberal elite. This is the result of university education. They know better, they are the side of ''science'', you are an inferior human being. They dug their own grave. They made debate futile to begin with, simply because the premise of discussion with them is that they are right and you should just shut up otherwise you are banned from social discussion. So be it, let's go with that reasoning. They are all unsalvageable, they must go.

  6. #26
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Any party that betrays promises deserves to be wiped out.
    How’s deporting 500,000 illegals going?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  7. #27

    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Going fine considering they mostly left for other places.

  8. #28
    Ordinarius
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    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    What you call ''far right'' is merely standard conservativism that has been around for centuries.
    And that is where you`re wrong. A party like the AFD, the Brexiteers, People like Orban, that Italian Guy and those corrupt Austrians have nothing to do with conservatism.
    As a conservative, I despise those populist fearmongerns and their helpful bunch of semitrolls.

  9. #29

    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    A conservtives first aim is to preserve his society. Orban wants to preserve the ethno-cultural heritage of his country. Afd same. Salvini is a newcomer to the topic since he used to be a separatist, but to the very least, it's his agenda now.

    The Brexit party isn't necessarily conservative but a single issue party, so we can leave that out. If you support open borders just like every single EPP party (except Orban) does, then you are not a conservative. Not a single one of them dares to say ''we stand for the Christian heritage of our country''. Most of them support things like the LGBT agenda instead of the traditional nuclear family. None of this is conservativism. It's actually an extreme left, progressive, anti-capitalism, anti-Western, anti-family, anti-white agenda. Those are nominally conservatives who dance at the tune of far left extremists who want to destroy society to rebuilt their utopia.

    By chance I've been reading Roger Scruton's work in the last few days. Now he's certainly a conservative philosopher. Who does he support? Orban or Merkel. Orban. Merkel is someone who goes as far as saying ''Islam belongs to Germany''. That's not conservativism. The ones who have a fetish for Islam because they hope Muslims would join them in their decolonization agenda are the far left. There's always the funny element where the ''Western colonials'' are out, Muslims and Communists jump at each other's throat and slaughter each other, see Iran as an example. But that's not our problem. The problem is Merkel's shift on the far left on cultural issues. She's a traitor.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; May 21, 2019 at 03:48 AM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    And that is where you`re wrong. A party like the AFD, the Brexiteers, People like Orban, that Italian Guy and those corrupt Austrians have nothing to do with conservatism.
    As a conservative, I despise those populist fearmongerns and their helpful bunch of semitrolls.
    They are actual conservatives. But, for example, neocons (McCain, May, Macron) aren't real conservatives.

  11. #31
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    And that is where you`re wrong. A party like the AFD, the Brexiteers, People like Orban, that Italian Guy and those corrupt Austrians have nothing to do with conservatism.
    As a conservative, I despise those populist fearmongerns and their helpful bunch of semitrolls.
    Those italian guy is called Salvini and he is a corrupt traitor of the people.

    His right hand was already dismissed because of corruption investigations.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/salv...ruption-probe/

    Only a question of time when Salvini is caught redhanded...
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  12. #32

    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    I always found it amusing how status-quo supporters would look for corruption among democratic nationalists with a giant magnifying glass, but happily ignore corruption on behalf of politicians that they themselves support.

  13. #33

    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    In Germany Hitler crashed the economy and broke the country in pieces (oh and inb4 idiotic comments like "but the Nazis who hated Socialism were actually Socialists, just ignore everything Hitler ever said")
    Ah, so 'don't ignore everything Hitler ever said'.
    Okay:
    "This German Volksgemeinschaft is truly practical socialism and therefore National Socialism in the best sense of the word. Here everyone is obligated to carry his load. Adolf Hitler, as quoted in Stagnation and Renewal in Social Policy: The Rise and Fall of Policy Regimes, editors: Martin Rein, Gøsta Esping-Andersen, and Lee Rainwater (1987) p. 63"
    "Since we are socialists, we must necessarily also be antisemites because we want to fight against the very opposite: materialism and mammonism… How can you not be an antisemite, being a socialist! Adolf Hitler, "Why We Are Anti-Semites," August 15, 1920 speech in Munich at the Hofbräuhaus. Translated from Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 16. Jahrg., 4. H. (Oct., 1968), pp. 390-420. Edited by Carolyn Yeager."
    "We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are determined to destroy this system under all conditions. Adolf Hitler as quoted in Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography, John Toland, New York: NY, Anchor Books, 1992, p. 224. Quote is from a speech at the Clou restaurant center on May 1, 1927. Hitler is paraphrasing Gregor Strasser’s one-page Nazi talking points memo from June 15, 1926."
    "After all, that’s exactly why we call ourselves National Socialists! We want to start by implementing socialism in our nation among our Volk! It is not until the individual nations are socialist that they can address themselves to international socialism. Adolf Hitler according to Otto Wagener in Hitler Memoirs of a Confidant, editor, Henry Ashby Turner, Jr., Yale University Press (1985) p. 288"
    "Socialism as the final concept of duty, the ethical duty of work, not just for oneself but also for one’s fellow man’s sake, and above all the principle: Common good before own good, a struggle against all parasitism and especially against easy and unearned income. And we were aware that in this fight we can rely on no one but our own people. We are convinced that socialism in the right sense will only be possible in nations and races that are Aryan, and there in the first place we hope for our own people and are convinced that socialism is inseparable from nationalism.

      • Adolf Hitler "Why We Are Anti-Semites," August 15, 1920 speech in Munich at the Hofbräuhaus. Hitler gave this speech a number of times in August of 1920 to members of the National Socialist German Workers Party. Translated from Vierteljahrshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 16. Jahrg., 4. H. (Oct., 1968), pp. 390-420. Edited by Carolyn Yeager."



    https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nazism#H

  14. #34
    Ordinarius
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    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    @Infidel144: That "Nazis = Socialist with Brown colour" topic is old and already answered; its appropriate to the qualitiy of the opening post that this stuff blobs up.

    @Clodia: Thats the Guy I was thinking about...

    @Heathen Hammer: I agree with you that there is nothing conservative about May or Macron... But I also find nothing conservative about People that try to gain might by feeding people with lies, arouse them with fear. Also there is nothing conservative about promising stuff that the state can`t pay (Italy).
    You find the bigotry amusing, that you claim to perceive on the other side (whatever this side constitutes).
    But what emotion does the behaviour of those selfacclaimed "Parties for the Peoples" arouse in you, that are constantly trying to harm those people?
    Shall we really talk about the consequences, that Orbans Politic has for Hungary? (Cheaper Cars for us Germans btw.)
    Or the Plans of the AFD for the unemployment insurance?

    Maybe we should first try to define conservatism today.

  15. #35
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Ah, the "Patriots"... look at them, how they act spreading hate,

    Far-right Facebook groups 'spreading hate to millions in Europe ...
    Activity ranged from French accounts sharing white supremacist content, to posts in Germany supporting Holocaust denial, and false pages promoting the Alternative für Deutschland party (AfD) party.
    In Italy, tactics included setting up general interest pages for beauty, football, health or other interests, then after followers signed up, transforming them into political tools.
    The researchers traced how a page, ostensibly set up for an association of agricultural breeders, slowly morphed into one supporting the far-right League, sharing a video that purported to show migrants smashing up a police car. It is actually a scene from a film and has been repeatedly debunked.
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  16. #36

    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    @Mortifea: Orban and AFD aren't perfect, but they are better then alternatives, such as cosmopolitan status quo neoliberals (posing as either liberals or conservatives) or outright socialists (we all know how these regimes end up both economically and politically). Sure, corruption is terrible and must not go unpunished, but in the grand scheme of things, parties like AFD are a lesser evil the the likes of Merkel and her cronies in other European countries.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I want to stay away from this thread if I can, but I should point out that Brexit is more complex than a product of right wing populism. The British Left and Centre has a long history of Euroscepticism. Indeed, the leader of the Labour Party is a Eurosceptic while the Leader of the Tories is a lifelong remainer. However, both compromise their personal views for political reason.
    Indeed, well said. Politics is a mess and any analysis that relies on this level of Manichean simplicity is unfit for adult conversation.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  18. #38

    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Complexity seems to be a convenient excuse to ignore obvious tendencies within elites.

  19. #39
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I want to stay away from this thread if I can, but I should point out that Brexit is more complex than a product of right wing populism. The British Left and Centre has a long history of Euroscepticism. Indeed, the leader of the Labour Party is a Eurosceptic while the Leader of the Tories is a lifelong remainer. However, both compromise their personal views for political reason.
    Exactly, but that doesn't fit with the left-wing narrative that Brexit is all about "internal Tory politics". Never mind that 5 million Labour voters (40% of their electorate) opted to Leave, and that over a million people in Scotland did.

  20. #40
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: European Parliament Elections 2019: Patriots against Traitors

    Looks like victory for the 'traitors' in the Netherlands. Newcomer Forum for Democracy will get 3 seats, but the other eurosceptic parties PVV (-4) and SP (-2) are set to lose all their seats. As for the rest the Dutch Labour, led by EU heavy weight Frans Timmermans, is set to get the most seats after a surprise victory, with the greens also making gains. Turnout was highest in 30 years.

    As to how we know these results, when we're not supposed to? Apparently, in each polling station the vote tally is required by law to be read out loud after the counting is done and Geen Steil decided to ask volunteers to be present when they did and pass the results on.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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