When even Andrew Neil seems cool (ludicrous ruin of Ben Shapiro)

[Kyriakos]

1)Shapiro accusing Ansrew Neil of being leftist (Neil is as Tory as they come)
2) Shapiro claiming Neil just is hurt because no one knows him, but everyone knows Ben
3) Shapiro arguing it is bad to use strong terms like 'dark ages' then can't answer why he called a bunch of people fascist (Obama) or sewage dwellers (palestinians).
4) Shapiro saying that Neil must have been paid a lot to try to character assassinate him (by just using Shap's own quotes).


What a tool

[Aexodus]

Shapiro was a total asshat in this interview.

What got me though was when Shapiro pulled the ‘I’m famous and you’re not’ card. That was incredibly rude and pretentious. Really Shapiro had the arrogance of a spoilt child and the intellectual depth of a puddle on Politics Live.

@Kyriakos Heh I don’t like Neil either. He’s more or less just another neo-liberal warhawk.

[Heathen Hammer]

Given the absolute state of UK, being a Tory doesn't make you a real conservative just like countries that call themselves "democratic republics" aren't usually very democratic.

[Kyriakos]

Shapiro was a total asshat in this interview.

What got me though was when Shapiro pulled the ‘I’m famous and you’re not’ card. That was incredibly rude and pretentious. Really Shapiro had the arrogance of a spoilt child and the intellectual depth of a puddle on Politics Live.

@Kyriakos Heh I don’t like Neil either. He’s more or less just another neo-liberal warhawk.

Yes, Neil is the typical neoliberal chicken-hawk. And it is sad that even such seems quasi-logical next to a freak-show like Shapiro ^_^

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I don't think that the political mudpit is the appropriate forum for this thread.

[Kyriakos]

I don't think that the political mudpit is the appropriate forum for this thread.

I think it is; it is clearly about politics, a political movement (youtube conservative 'stars' and their ilk) and about a ridiculous ruin of a supposedly good speaker like Shapiro. In reality Shapiro only survives in the role of debater because he goes to anodyne panels in Fox or is against inexperienced and low-level journalists in liberal media.
Why not have this in the mudpit? Shapiro may be thema-devia material, but the topic isn't

[Aexodus]

Considering the interview was literally broadcast on ‘Politics Live’ on BBC 2 I don’t see how it’s not a political subject.

[Dante Von Hespburg]

Given the absolute state of UK, being a Tory doesn't make you a real conservative just like countries that call themselves "democratic republics" aren't usually very democratic.

It does and it doesn't. Since at least the 1890s (I would argue far earlier), the UK 'Conservatives' are very different from say their US counterparts. If you wanted 'Libertarian/Night-watchman' you'd go for the British liberals (until 1903 when they become the state-interventionist 'New Liberals' and shun Gladstonian liberalism), but the Conservative party has always had a significant degree of state paternalism to their ideology (as has traditional Labour...not just the Fabian element of it- you can probably guess why with the Westminister system encouraging parties to meet in the middle, they tend to influence each other fairly significantly, despite intractable..ish! difference at their base), particularly 'One nation Conservatives'- who were the dominant faction in the party, barring Thatchers 'blip'- and even Thatcher was no actual libertarian (Hence why Hayeck spent so much time being pissed at her ), she centralized and enlarged the state's presence in key areas she deemed 'strategic' and actively warped Austrian conceptions of democracy, of consumers replacing citizens as a 'better' means of freedom of choice. She essentially took the bits she liked from the Austrians and the Classicals, and the melded it with traditional Conservative Paternalistic ethos of a strong centralized state- creating a very interesting form of British neoliberalism.

So i'd say being a Tory in Britain is exactly now as it always has been, The UK political establishment for a very long time has been highly (some would argue pragmatically) interventionist in social and economic areas that would turn a Republicans hair white. That people seem to assume there is a global interpretation of a 'Tory' or 'the Right' or 'Social Democrats' etc is far too sweeping a generalization that has no actual value when discussing said states politics, based mostly on a comparison with the USA (Which i can get, its the dominant western power, but it doesn't at all fit with other state's historic definitions).

Its interesting indeed that this interview highlighted what happens when a faction of the political right of one state, interacts with that of another. There is common broad in certain areas, but also enough for them to have rabid disagreements . Incidentally i'm not entirely sure why Ben Shapiro was featured at all, he's not really of any relevance to UK politics, as far as i can tell he's not in practice much of an influence on the 'internationalist right' (By this i mean the current movement stemming mainly from the US right to export itself globally), or indeed the US right. I guess its because his remarks on abortion and Palestine have caused a stir.

[Kyriakos]

^I think he was invited - going by what Neil said in his opening comment - due to youtube fame and hits
But it was good he was invited, cause Shapiro built his image as being supposedly able to debate, and watching Neil wreck him was funny. Neil isn't even some super-journalist, yet he isn't a drone either. Apparently that was too much for Shap

[Aexodus]

I wonder though, why on Earth did Andrew Neil think pro-lifers were in his words ‘barbaric’ in policy and would ‘take us back to the dark ages’. That wasn’t professional of him and needlessy provocative. Not that it was anyone but Ben’s fault for taking the bait.

[Kyriakos]

^Going by the few other Neil interviews i have seen, it seems to have been just that; a bait. Though draconian laws re anti- early stage abortion aren't a thing (afaik) in most of Europe.

[irontaino]

Benny is really only good at debating sophomore college kids. What a glorious train wreck.

[Aexodus]

^Going by the few other Neil interviews i have seen, it seems to have been just that; a bait. Though draconian laws re anti- early stage abortion aren't a thing (afaik) in most of Europe.

Unlawful abortion is punishable by life imprisonment in England. Is that draconian?

[Kyriakos]

Unlawful abortion is punishable by life imprisonment in England. Is that draconian?

I am not aware of the specifics, but i am pretty sure the time of abortion is what defines if it is lawful or not in the UK. And the examples from Georgia and other such US states clearly are extreme next to the law in the UK, no?

[Aexodus]

I am not aware of the specifics, but i am pretty sure the time of abortion is what defines if it is lawful or not in the UK. And the examples from Georgia and other such US states clearly are extreme next to the law in the UK, no?

Seemed to be me Neil was gettinf at the jail sentence more than the time limit, calling it ‘barbaric’.

But why is Georgia’s abortion law extreme. Sure, we can say it’s wrong, or excessive, but extreme? Barbaric?

[Kyriakos]

^Andrew Neil is more famous than you, ergo you are wrong

[Aexodus]

Lol

I just looked it up by the way, the georgia abortion bill does not ban abortion to protect the mother’s health, where the foetus is medically futile/deformed etc, and in cases of rape and incest abortion is allowed.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

1)Shapiro accusing Ansrew Neil of being leftist (Neil is as Tory as they come)
2) Shapiro claiming Neil just is hurt because no one knows him, but everyone knows Ben
3) Shapiro arguing it is bad to use strong terms like 'dark ages' then can't answer why he called a bunch of people fascist (Obama) or sewage dwellers (palestinians).
4) Shapiro saying that Neil must have been paid a lot to try to character assassinate him (by just using Shap's own quotes).


What a tool

Right, having actually watched the video:
1)If you compare the political stances of the UK's conservative party to those of the American parties, you'd find that it is much more closely aligned with the Democrats (the "left") than with the Republicans (the "Right").
2&4)Same point really. And yes, it was petty of him.
3)As for the fascist thing, Shapiro asked Neil to read it out so he can critique it, at which point Neil decided to simply move on. As for the sewage, he stated that he has a list available on his website of "Dumb things" he said where he explains that. He also began explaining it but Neil cut him off.

[Prodromos]

American conservatives are basically liberal Whigs, not conservative Tories. British Whigs and Liberals stopped being a major political force a long time ago. I recall reading that Ameica is the only country where [classical] liberals are a major force. Anyway, I watched the interview yesterday and while I think Neil may have had a valid point, the interview was clearly planned from the start to embarass Shapiro, so even though Shapiro mishandled it I don't blame him at all. Poor behavior on Neil's part.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Shapiro also later tweeted:

“@afneil DESTROYS Ben Shapiro! So that’s what that feels like Broke my own rule, and wasn’t properly prepared. I’ve addressed every single issue he raised before; see below. Still, it’s Neil 1, Shapiro 0.”