View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

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  • Bernie Sanders.

    19 48.72%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 12.82%
  • Neither.

    15 38.46%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #581

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    He is the least of all evils because NATO didn't simply wipe out that butthole along with Gaddafi eaaaarly on, before a decade of civil war had radicalized everyone and before ISIS showed up. Back then there were alternatives. Also not perfect alternatives but much better choices than the 2015 choice of Assad, Al Qaeda or ISIS. Russia may have been angry and complained but back in 2010-2011 they would have played ball and follow the line in the end.
    On the other hand, if NATO would do the same crap they did in Libya, that the French were out before Gaddafi's corpse was cold and UK followed within a weekend instead of shouldering their responsibility and staying around for a decade (yes, paying the blood tax) then perhaps they shouldn't have meddled from the very beginning; extract concessions from Assad that he would treat his people better and help him stabilize Syria in 2009. Back when Assad was still soooomewhat reasonable and despite oppression Syria was a place one could live in, back then in 2010, before Assad unleashed the Shabiha and other paramilitaries.
    The problem in this argument is the misconception that there was ever an alternative to Assad or that there was ever democratic "freedom fighter" opposition against him. In reality, had US/NATO "wiped him out" in the same year, Syria would be pretty much like Libya as of today constant battleground between various types of jihadis. Needless to say that American/NATO aggression against Libya was also hardly justified - much like Assad's, Qaddafi's "crimes" had little evidence of existing and reasons behind American support for jihadis had more to do with economic factors (Qaddafi's plans to ditch petrodollar and Assad's refusal to build pipeline from Qatar).
    The other misconception is that US/NATO had some kind of humanitarian goals in case of either countries. They immediately left Libya not out of naive belief that victorious jihadists would build a functioning liberal democratic government, but because their goal was to destroy Libya as an economic entity, which they accomplished. In the same way, independent sovereign Syria is also a torn in the side of Israel, Saudis and other foreign lobbies that play weight in America's foreign policy.
    And as I pointed out above, even if American propaganda claims about Libya and Syria weren't as false as they were about Iraq, its not America's taxpayer's responsibility to fund "spreading of democracy" in Middle East and other regions, which already costed trillions. That's why Gabbard is correct - if US would just end LARPing as "world's policeman", there'd be trillions of disposable income that could be spent on healthcare, infrastructure, scientific research, etc.

  2. #582

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Biden: 'There's an awful lot of really good Republicans out there' | TheHill

    White House hopeful Joe Biden doubled down on his vow to cooperate with Republicans should he be elected president, saying he successfully worked across the aisle as vice president.

    “There’s an awful lot of really good Republicans out there,” he said Saturday at a Massachusetts fundraiser. “I get in trouble for saying that with Democrats, but the truth of the matter is, every time we ever got in trouble with our administration, remember who got sent up to Capitol Hill to fix it? Me. Because they know I respect the other team.”

    Biden added that many conservatives are being “intimidated” to follow in lockstep with President Trump.

    “They’re decent people. They ran because they care about things, but they’re intimidated right now,” he told the fundraiser’s attendees.

    Similar comments have in the past infuriated progressive activists, who are in search for a candidate who can effectively fight against Trump and the GOP’s agenda and argue that the former vice president is naïve to suggest Republicans on Capitol Hill are interested in bipartisanship.

    But, Biden, who leveraged his decades serving in the Senate to help become one of the Obama administration’s chief negotiators on Capitol Hill, has maintained that reaching across the aisle is the only way to implement long-lasting change.

    “If you start off with the notion there's nothing you can do, well why don't you all go home then, man? Or let's start a real physical revolution if you're talking about it. Because we have to be able to change what we're doing within our system,” Biden said in June.

    “You have to go out and beat these folks if they don't agree with you, by making your case - and that's what presidents are supposed to do: Persuade the public. Move people as to what's going on.”

    Despite liberal pushback toward his bipartisan strategy, Biden has maintained his leads in most national and statewide primary polls ahead of several other frontrunners, including Sens. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Kamala Harris (D-Calif.), all of whom are seeking to angle their campaigns’ appeal to the Democrats’ progressive flank.
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  3. #583

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Biden’s record and gaffes were a liability, but he was toast the moment he started talking about bipartisanship. The best case for the kind of middle of the road approach he’s clinging to is in a general election in the nineties, not the primaries in 2020. I was pulling for him but at this point I’m going to have to learn to like Warren. In the words of Obama, “You don’t have to do this Joe, you really don’t.”
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; August 18, 2019 at 02:51 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  4. #584

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    What plays well in the Democratic primary could be suicidal in the general election. I don't think any of the other/progressive candidates have the ability to beat Trump, so it doesn't matter which one they nominate.

    There's not enough popular support for either conservatism or progressivism to be imposed nation-wide, so meeting halfway on some issues and delegating the rest to the states is probably the best option. If either conservatives or progressives try to ram their ideas through at the federal level, that's only likely to further radicalize the other side until eventually the country just falls apart.
    Last edited by Prodromos; August 18, 2019 at 03:34 PM.
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  5. #585

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    The problem with Democrats is that for primaries they are trying to go as fringe as possible with their promises, which would destroy them in general, when their support for things like government healthcare for illegal aliens and late-term abortions are only popular among fringe minority of left-wingers and would not even go well even with mainstream moderate Democrats who'd probably view them as worse evil then Trump.

  6. #586

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    The problem with Democrats is that for primaries they are trying to go as fringe as possible with their promises, which would destroy them in general, when their support for things like government healthcare for illegal aliens and late-term abortions are only popular among fringe minority of left-wingers and would not even go well even with mainstream moderate Democrats who'd probably view them as worse evil then Trump.

    There is broad popular support for the Democrats’ key policies (Medicare for All, 15 dollar minimum wage, higher taxes on the wealthy, repeal/reform the AUMF and de escalate involvement in foreign wars, etc). Even the “Green New Deal” was essentially a series of non-binding resolutions whose most fear-mongered aspect was a carbon tax - the most capitalistic, widely supported climate policy in existence. There is nothing “fringe” about those ideas. If the Democrats play to their strengths and stop falling for Trump’s traps that push more esoteric social justice issues into focus, they’ll be fine. Trump didn’t even win the popular vote the first time around by a historically large margin, and his own polling has him losing to every Dem front runner in 2020.


    The voters driven by anti-abortion hysteria and fears of illegal immigrants getting “free” stuff are almost universally Republicans and won’t be voting Democrat in the general anyway. The whole “we need Republicans to vote for us” stupidity is how the Dems abandoned the FDR legacy and wound up being the proverbial battered wife of the GOP in the first place.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; August 19, 2019 at 10:30 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  7. #587
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Literally all four of the top dem primary contenders beat trump in head to head match ups. Bern, Biden, and Warren all destroy Trump in a general election match up. Harris is the only one who might struggle.

    Centrist Democrats are supported by the republican establishment (Cock bros yo) take a moment to think about why they might fund the centrists when they have no interest in losing. Oddly enough Sanders appeals the most to conservative voters.

  8. #588

  9. #589
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    Literally all four of the top dem primary contenders beat trump in head to head match ups. Bern, Biden, and Warren all destroy Trump in a general election match up. Harris is the only one who might struggle.

    Centrist Democrats are supported by the republican establishment (Cock bros yo) take a moment to think about why they might fund the centrists when they have no interest in losing. Oddly enough Sanders appeals the most to conservative voters.
    Which Democrats are funded by the GOP? Is Biden among them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  10. #590

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    There is broad popular support for the Democrats’ key policies (Medicare for All, 15 dollar minimum wage, higher taxes on the wealthy, repeal/reform the AUMF and de escalate involvement in foreign wars, etc). Even the “Green New Deal” was essentially a series of non-binding resolutions whose most fear-mongered aspect was a carbon tax - the most capitalistic, widely supported climate policy in existence. There is nothing “fringe” about those ideas. If the Democrats play to their strengths and stop falling for Trump’s traps that push more esoteric social justice issues into focus, they’ll be fine. Trump didn’t even win the popular vote the first time around by a historically large margin, and his own polling has him losing to every Dem front runner in 2020.


    The voters driven by anti-abortion hysteria and fears of illegal immigrants getting “free” stuff are almost universally Republicans and won’t be voting Democrat in the general anyway. The whole “we need Republicans to vote for us” stupidity is how the Dems abandoned the FDR legacy and wound up being the proverbial battered wife of the GOP in the first place.
    There is little evidence that there is broad support for Democrat policies. All the fiscally illiterate socialist promises usually come at a price of higher taxes and/or tanking the economy, and even mainstream Democrats wouldn't be enthusiastic about that (hence why Sanders got kicked even though he'd be a tougher opponent for Trump the Clinton). Promise to be involved in wars less would sound quite weird form a former VP of a a very war-happy administration. I mean there are more or less sane candidates like Gabbard, but we all know that Democrat establishment is obsessed with Middle East and Iran just as much as senile rhinos in GOP are.
    Not to mention that if learned anything form 2016, its that polls tend to fail at predicting things like that. And one would have to be extra kind of delusional to think that Trump wouldn't easily crush Biden or Warren.

  11. #591

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    There is little evidence that there is broad support for Democrat policies. All the fiscally illiterate socialist promises usually come at a price of higher taxes and/or tanking the economy, and even mainstream Democrats wouldn't be enthusiastic about that (hence why Sanders got kicked even though he'd be a tougher opponent for Trump the Clinton).
    Which policies are those? Large majorities of Americans support Medicare for All/universal healthcare provided by the government, higher taxes on the wealthy, 15 dollar minimum wage, and a carbon tax that funds a tax rebate or environmental restoration. That’s basically the Dem platform in a nutshell. The Democratic House sent legislation on all those topics to the Senate already. McConnell is single handedly protecting Trump from the political liability of having to veto the bills.

    https://www.kff.org/slideshow/public...care-coverage/

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...to-15-an-hour/

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-voters-favor-taxing-the-wealthy-increasing-domestic-spending

    https://epic.uchicago.edu/news-event...rs-ago-climate
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  12. #592

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    I guess they got redpilled by the Obama administration. You know administration that spent a lot... on wars, while mostly disregarding taxpayers (it seems Obama forgot about the whole change thing and became a pro-gay version of Bush jr. as soon as inauguration was over) and throwing a rainbow-colored bone to progressive leftists by legalizing gay marriage. Not everyone is a big fan of having your income taken so it can be spent on bombing the out of some country that doesn't want to use petrodollar or made barbaric theocracies in the Gulf feel uneasy. They should have listened to Gabbard.
    Carbon tax thing is easily debunked by example of Canada, where it backfired horribly. I recall similar attempts in France, which resulted with Yellow Vest movement.
    I mean its easy to say you will provide good things for the population, but without a coherent plan its not something that wins elections in on itself.
    And by pushing for things like healthcare for illegal aliens and late-term abortions Democrats are pushing themselves towards the fringes of the fringe. I mean supporting that would make Warren popular among the demographic of people with purple hair and bouquet of mental illnesses, but would be a dead weight in general elections.

  13. #593

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    As I said, there are plenty of coherent plans, including legislation sitting on the Senate docket, that shows Democrats are prepared to deliver on their signature issues with overwhelming public support. At least two front runners made their political careers pushing for such legislation.

    Plus, big promises with no coherent plan worked for Trump once, and the only way finger-wagging predictions about “fringe” Democrats will pan out is if it works for him again.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  14. #594

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Trump managed to successfully provoke Democrats into discrediting themselves. Also unlike his opponents, Trump does have a coherent program. So far all we heard from Democrats is different variations of "orange man bad". Combined with complete lack of strong candidates, vague promises for free stuff would not be enough to sway the public. They had an excellent opportunity with Gabbard (who appeals not just to fringe far-left but to broad spectrum of population and could easily steal supporters from Trump with issues he is weak on like foreign policy), but it is becoming obvious that they'll give nomination to either Biden or Warren, both of which are incredibly easy for Trump to destroy in general, kinda similar to Mondale's failure in 1984

  15. #595

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Trump managed to successfully provoke Democrats into discrediting themselves. Also unlike his opponents, Trump does have a coherent program. So far all we heard from Democrats is different variations of "orange man bad". Combined with complete lack of strong candidates, vague promises for free stuff would not be enough to sway the public. They had an excellent opportunity with Gabbard (who appeals not just to fringe far-left but to broad spectrum of population and could easily steal supporters from Trump with issues he is weak on like foreign policy), but it is becoming obvious that they'll give nomination to either Biden or Warren, both of which are incredibly easy for Trump to destroy in general, kinda similar to Mondale's failure in 1984
    I don't always laugh but When did Trump ever had a resemblance of a coherent program?
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  16. #596
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I guess they got redpilled by the Obama administration. You know administration that spent a lot... on wars, while mostly disregarding taxpayers (it seems Obama forgot about the whole change thing and became a pro-gay version of Bush jr. as soon as inauguration was over) and throwing a rainbow-colored bone to progressive leftists by legalizing gay marriage. Not everyone is a big fan of having your income taken so it can be spent on bombing the out of some country that doesn't want to use petrodollar or made barbaric theocracies in the Gulf feel uneasy.
    http://www.fi-aeroweb.com/Defense-Spending.html

    Chart regarding what the last president was doing and had done. Unfortunately this trend was not maintained and entirely reversed by trump.


    Notice Obama's budget plan which was successful and reduced military spending by some 200 million from 2009 and was on track to reduce over spending down 60%. Trump reinflated it immediately.


    Trump has increased defense spending

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Carbon tax thing is easily debunked by example of Canada, where it backfired horribly. I recall similar attempts in France, which resulted with Yellow Vest movement.
    I mean its easy to say you will provide good things for the population, but without a coherent plan its not something that wins elections in on itself.
    That's pretty BS. Carbon taxes are extremely effective and can be crafted quite easily, we even have policy recommendations about the specifics (good parts bad parts etc) which gives us a very easy pathway to attainment. Combined with renewables subsidies equal to those given to fossil fuel industries we'd rapidly revamp our infrastructure. Renewables are already cheaper than fossil fuels without subsidies, add in subsidies and they would take off even more like wildfire.

    https://news.mit.edu/2018/carbon-tax...te-change-0406

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    And by pushing for things like healthcare for illegal aliens and late-term abortions Democrats are pushing themselves towards the fringes of the fringe. I mean supporting that would make Warren popular among the demographic of people with purple hair and bouquet of mental illnesses, but would be a dead weight in general elections.
    Errm, no one is pushing for late term abortion, and healthcare is a public good dude, the costs of not doing it dramatically exceed the costs of giving it away for free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Trump managed to successfully provoke Democrats into discrediting themselves. Also unlike his opponents, Trump does have a coherent program. So far all we heard from Democrats is different variations of "orange man bad". Combined with complete lack of strong candidates, vague promises for free stuff would not be enough to sway the public. They had an excellent opportunity with Gabbard (who appeals not just to fringe far-left but to broad spectrum of population and could easily steal supporters from Trump with issues he is weak on like foreign policy), but it is becoming obvious that they'll give nomination to either Biden or Warren, both of which are incredibly easy for Trump to destroy in general, kinda similar to Mondale's failure in 1984
    Is this just your made up theory crafting? Like, you think trump has better coherent programs but literally anyway we qualify that proves it's not true. Furthermore trump gets stomped by both warren and biden. I'd like to pretend your bets are based in reason but I can't see how you come up with a statement like this.

  17. #597

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    US military spending between 2000 and 2018.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The final budget of the Bush administration (for the year 2009) set military spending at $763 bn. The final budget of the Obama administration (for the year 2017) set military spending at $605 bn. The difference in military spending between 2009 and 2017 was $158 bn. This represents a ~20% reduction. A more difficult question to consider is the extent to which, if at all, this reduction facilitated the rise of Daesh after 2011. The Trump administration's budget proposal for FY 2020 sets military spending at $718 bn.
    Last edited by Cope; August 21, 2019 at 12:31 PM.



  18. #598

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    US military spending between 2000 and 2018.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The final budget of the Bush administration (for the year 2009) set military spending at $763 bn. The final budget of the Obama administration (for the year 2017) set military spending at $605 bn. The difference in military spending between 2009 and 2017 was $158 bn. This represents a ~20% reduction. A more difficult question to consider is the extent to which, if at all, this reduction facilitated the rise of Daesh after 2011. The Trump administration's budget proposal for FY 2020 sets military spending at $718 bn.
    These budgets exist in different contexts.

  19. #599
    Elfdude's Avatar Tribunus
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    I'm not sure what your point is epic. Did Trump increase spending his first budget period? Yes. Was it set to decline? Yes. Was the reduction mostly down to active military actions? Yes. Does heathen's point that people don't like to spend money on Obama's military make any sense consider trump is doing more? No. He also is proposing to increase it, open or significantly increase theaters of war with Iran/Middle East and South Americas.

  20. #600

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I don't always laugh but When did Trump ever had a resemblance of a coherent program?
    The current presidency. Economy is doing great. Record low unemployment rates. Less amount of world policeman LARPing then with his more war-happy predecessors. He clearly is doing well and has much to offer to the population, unlike Democrats, who still go with "orange man bad" and "free stuff" instead of having a coherent program.

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