View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

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  • Bernie Sanders.

    19 48.72%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 12.82%
  • Neither.

    15 38.46%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #241
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Gaidin you and I know the reparations aren’t aimed at Asians and Arabs.
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  2. #242

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Gaidin you and I know the reparations aren’t aimed at Asians and Arabs.
    Yea but to force people to pay more money based on race you have to pass a law. Along with the governments “we’re giving them money “ law. That is then a tax. Based on race. You are taxing based on race. And you have to get this law through Congress and if you do that you will then hope it sticks through the courts.

    All that time you didn’t want things done to you based on race and even amended the constitution for it you are perfectly willing to flip the script for a dollar. Good to see the greed come out.
    Last edited by Gaidin; June 25, 2019 at 06:01 PM.
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  3. #243
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Gaidin I was just attacking progressives who want reparations. I’m not here to discuss the likelihood of them happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  4. #244

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Gaidin I was just attacking progressives who want reparations. I’m not here to discuss the likelihood of them happening.
    Except assume for thirty seconds they manage reparations. You and I both know that whatever they run on it will be funded neutrally lest it get struck down. It’s one thing for the government to spend its money where it wants. It’s another for it to racially target people via a tax no matter the endgame.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  5. #245
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Uh? The reparations proposed by your side are based on collective and inherent status of guilt and collective and inherent status of victimhood.
    Reparations would be made by and on behalf of the government/nation. If you feel it would thrust present day white people in a position of guilt vs present day black people, then that is really a choice you make and not something you can project upon others who might think reparations of some sort are worthy of consideration (that's about as far as Dem presidential candidates go). IMHO you're overly sensitive to 'threats to white people'. Be careful you don't develop a victim complex of your own.
    Last edited by Muizer; June 25, 2019 at 07:09 PM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  6. #246

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Reparations would be made by and on behalf of the government/nation. If you feel it would thrust present day white people in a position of guilt vs present day black people, then that is really a choice you make and not something you can project upon others who might think reparations of some sort are worthy of consideration (that's about as far as Dem presidential candidates go). IMHO you're overly sensitive to 'threats to white people'. Be careful you don't develop a victim complex of your own.
    That has something to do with the fact that notion of reparations is, in fact, holding nation responsible for past alleged "injustices". Obviously, if such politicians think that such injustices need reparations, they can use their personal wealth for that and leave taxpayer's money to be spent on taxpayer's needs, not on some Democrat apparatchik's virtue-signaling tantrum.

  7. #247

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    That has something to do with the fact that notion of reparations is, in fact, holding nation responsible for past alleged "injustices". Obviously, if such politicians think that such injustices need reparations, they can use their personal wealth for that and leave taxpayer's money to be spent on taxpayer's needs, not on some Democrat apparatchik's virtue-signaling tantrum.
    Muizer’s point is that politicians are elected to represent the people and the country. If they feel reparation is necessary that is their prerogative. Because gathered tax money is theirs to spend. We elect them for that function among many others. My point is don’t target a racial tax if one doesn’t want this to collapse faster than many other legal maneuvers we’ve seen die.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  8. #248

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Muizer’s point is that politicians are elected to represent the people and the country. If they feel reparation is necessary that is their prerogative. Because gathered tax money is theirs to spend. We elect them for that function among many others. My point is don’t target a racial tax if one doesn’t want this to collapse faster than many other legal maneuvers we’ve seen die.
    Politicians are nothing more then hired administrators. They must be held responsible to make sure that their decisions represent interests of their constituents. So spending tax funds on something entirely unrelated from such interests isn't something they should be able to do. Its like if an elected politician just took millions out of budget and donated them to some KKK group.

  9. #249
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    That has something to do with the fact that notion of reparations is, in fact, holding nation responsible for past alleged "injustices".
    Evidently. That is what reparations are about: an admission by a government or organization that its past incarnation caused harm. And if it's a government doing it, then it's doing it on behalf of the nation. For 'the people' it is admitting their ancestors did wrong, not assuming guilt themselves, as Basil seems to think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Obviously, if such politicians think that such injustices need reparations, they can use their personal wealth for that and leave taxpayer's money to be spent on taxpayer's needs
    That would be personal charity then, with no symbolic value whatsoever.


    Anyway, IMHO a government can make such gestures on behalf of a nation (not as in people who live there today, but as in the historical political entity). What is true that such a gesture would not carry much weight unless it is made with broad, bipartisan, support. An executive order or heavily contested legislation passed with a slim majority would largely invalidate the mostly symbolical value it's supposed to have.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  10. #250

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Politicians are nothing more then hired administrators. They must be held responsible to make sure that their decisions represent interests of their constituents. So spending tax funds on something entirely unrelated from such interests isn't something they should be able to do. Its like if an elected politician just took millions out of budget and donated them to some KKK group.
    Quick, amend the Constitution to say what they’re allowed to or not allowed to spend money on as a government before 2021.

    Until and unless the Constitution says such things the only time your whims matter is at the ballot box. Tell me do you even participate in the Democratic Primary?
    Last edited by Gaidin; June 26, 2019 at 04:42 AM.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  11. #251

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Evidently. That is what reparations are about: an admission by a government or organization that its past incarnation caused harm. And if it's a government doing it, then it's doing it on behalf of the nation. For 'the people' it is admitting their ancestors did wrong, not assuming guilt themselves, as Basil seems to think.
    Again, why should people, majority of which can hardly trace their lieanage past a few generations assume their own guilt?
    That would be personal charity then, with no symbolic value whatsoever.


    Anyway, IMHO a government can make such gestures on behalf of a nation (not as in people who live there today, but as in the historical political entity). What is true that such a gesture would not carry much weight unless it is made with broad, bipartisan, support. An executive order or heavily contested legislation passed with a slim majority would largely invalidate the mostly symbolical value it's supposed to have.
    But that's the thing - only a small minority of leftists think that nation is to be held responsible for "past injustices". There isn't any broad support for "reparations" even among the Democrats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Quick, amend the Constitution to say what they’re allowed to or not allowed to spend money on as a government before 2021.
    So an elected politician has a right to spend taxpayer funds on say donations to KKK or to SS veterans?

  12. #252
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Again, why should people, majority of which can hardly trace their lieanage past a few generations assume their own guilt?
    What the heck? I just said explicitly that that is not what it's about!

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer
    For 'the people' it is admitting their ancestors did wrong, not assuming guilt themselves, as Basil seems to think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    But that's the thing - only a small minority of leftists think that nation is to be held responsible for "past injustices". There isn't any broad support for "reparations" even among the Democrats.
    I just said that it would be pointless if such a thing were pushed through without wide backing. No point saying sorry if you don't mean it.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  13. #253

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    So an elected politician has a right to spend taxpayer funds on say donations to KKK or to SS veterans?
    I’m not sure what you think you’re going to catch me up in here. One of the elected politicians purposes for existing is to budget collected taxes as funds. Right now there are no limits as to what they can and cannot spend that money on past the sheer economical value of the American dollar.

    If you want limits, put limits into law in such a way that they have no choice but to comply.

    Example: there is a legislative limit on government money being spent at abortion clinics. If Congress wanted to suddenly line item money for them their congressional power of the budget would override the law that screws with the Executive. But Congress wouldn’t be able to argue with Amendments giving them budgetary rules. This isn’t a truly complex line of thought.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  14. #254

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Tulsi Gabbard apparently did well in the first round of debates, which is great because she's one of the few who's not completely evil or crazy.

  15. #255
    MacCarthy's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Tulsi Gabbard apparently did well in the first round of debates, which is great because she's one of the few who's not completely evil or crazy.
    I liked her and the representative from Ohio Ryan?
    Funny he basically called the rest of them out as coastal, Ivy league elitists. And spot of that if the Dems want to win in 2020, they need to court the Mid-West with blue collar values not welfare promises.

  16. #256
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    The German newspaper "Die Süddeutsche" sees this candidates as winner and loser of the first TV debate:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    On the first of two TV evenings with Democratic presidential candidates, Elizabeth Warren lives up to her role as a favorite. Two previously rather insignificant candidates make a big impression.

    The first of two debate evenings is over, and the first ten Democratic candidates for the presidential nomination have tried to clarify their views to the people of the United States. Of the survey heavyweights, only Elizabeth Warren will appear on Wednesday. Joe Biden, Bernie Sanders and Pete Buttigieg are expected on Thursday.

    The pre-election campaign is thus entering a new phase. The question is no longer who is also a candidate against President Donald Trump in 2020. But who will give up of the now 24 candidates in the near future.

    The debate is the first chance for most candidates to present themselves to an audience of millions. The television appearance is crucial to the question of how the surveys develop and how many donations the applicants take to finance their election campaigns. In other words, those who do not score here will find it difficult to survive politically in the coming weeks.

    The first evening has produced three winners, two of them rather surprising. And a clear loser. The six other candidates have remained so pale that they will not be mentioned here any further. Here is the purely subjective view of the mixed situation after the first evening:

    The biggest winners:

    Elizabeth Warren

    The Senator from Massachusetts is the most promising candidate for this first debate evening. On average she is on the national polls at twelve percent. In second place is Beto O'Rourke, who only comes to just under three percent. Warren is a big tanker surrounded by sailboats compared to the other contestants that evening. She lives up to her role.

    Her anger at existing political conditions does not appear in any moment artificial. Her promise to fight as president for the people in the country as she would fight for her own family seems credible. She does not get involved in any debate this evening. When it comes to climate protection, she remains surprisingly calm. But her core themes are just social justice, the ousting of big corporations, the top one percent of society.

    She gets in the two hours only 9:31 minutes to speak. Cory Booker and O'Rourke are allowed to talk a bit longer. But at this time she puts down her main points: fight against corruption, for a health insurance for all, against the power of big money. It pays off that she has come up with elaborate concepts in almost all policy areas. She knows her numbers, such as the fact that the US health companies together make a total of $ 23 billion in profits from the health business each year. A "gigantic industry!" She says. When it comes down to her, the golden times for these corporations are over. If she makes it to the White House.

    Bill de Blasio

    From a lower point a candidate can hardly start. The mayor of New York City has been one of the last Democrats to apply for the presidential nomination. Just so he has managed to take the minimum threshold for this TV debate to come in three surveys over one percent approval. Although re-elected as mayor in 2017, New Yorkers are skeptical of his candidacy. An overwhelming majority does not consider him electable when it comes to presidential office.

    But this evening was his evening. At the very beginning of the two-hour TV debate, he leaves no doubt where he stands for. For a few minutes Booker, Amy Klobuchar and Warren have word for word who of them is the better democrat. De Blasio brings it to the point. "The Democratic Party must be the party of working people!" He shouts. "Strong, brave and progressive." That brings him a lot of applause.

    Again and again he shoots in between, makes his voice heard. When the Texan O'Rourke defends private health insurance because they offer people freedom of choice, de Blasio interrupts him. "Private health insurance just does not work for most people." When will he finally see this? O'Rourke brings that out of his concept.

    But his main point makes de Blasio when it comes to immigration. Again his speech becomes fundamental, appeals to all those who believe that the immigrants would take something away from them, jobs and security, for example. Many Trump voters, then. "The immigrants did not do that to you, the big corporations did it to you, the top one percent did that to you." De Blasio appears here in the best sense as a progressive worker leader. Hardly anyone expected so much fighter heart from him.

    Julián Castro

    When Castro got into the Democratic presidential race he may have known that the White House project would not be easy for him. He is the only Latino to apply for president. His starting conditions are not so bad. He was mayor of San Antonio, one of the largest cities in the USA. And he was Minister of Housing in the government of President Barack Obama, so he knows all too well the social upheavals in his country. However, he has remained quite pale and rarely reached more than one percent approval in the polls. In the debate, however, he showed himself emotionally, snappily and aggressively at just the right moments. Especially when it comes to immigration. For some days a disturbing photo is in circulation. It shows Óscar Alberto Martínez Ramírez and his 23-month-old daughter Angie Valeria. Both lie side by side floating in the water with their faces down on the banks of the Rio Grande. They drowned in the river that separates Mexico from the United States. Castro is addressed to the picture. It's "heartbreaking," he says. For a moment his breath stops. That something like this can happen "should piss us off".

    Castro calls for a change in the law that downgrades an illegal border crossing from a crime to an administrative offense. With his Texas compatriot O'Rourke he delivers a fight about because O'Rourkr does not agree. O'Rourke, who locates himself more on the progressive side of the Democrats, was overtaken by Castro left.

    Castro makes it clear this evening that on the progressive side with him, there is a credible candidate for all those, for which Sanders and Warren are too old and too white.

    The biggest loser:

    Beto O'Rourke

    Hardly any candidacy has been expected like that of O'Rourke. Last year, he had lost the race for a senatorial seat for Texas so close that the Democrats still celebrated him as the big winner. He mutated into a superstar for many Democrats just because he ended up not too far behind Republican Ted Cruz. He made the Democrats hope that a republican fortress such as Texas could possibly take over.

    Apparently, O'Rourke had also very much hoped that he could transfer his momentum from the Texas election into the fight for the presidential candidacy of the Democrats. That did not happen that way. In polls, he cites the sad field of those who do not get over three percent approval. This evening in Miami will not change that much. He got bogged down when it came to immigration issues and showed a fuzzy attitude to the future of health insurance in the US. Of his competitors, he had to take hefty punchs. Apart from giving parts of his first answer in the debate in Spanish, his appearance is not remembered.

    https://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/...p-tv-1.4501393
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  17. #257
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    For whom sanders and warren are “too white”?

    Decriminalising illegal crossing is one way to lose the election in 2020. You want Trump to paint you as the open borders party? Castro’s policy would give him all he needed.
    Patronised by Pontifex Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  18. #258

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Tulsi Gabbard apparently did well in the first round of debates, which is great because she's one of the few who's not completely evil or crazy.
    She seems to be the voice of sanity among other morally schizophrenic candidates that trip over themselves to prove which one is the most fringe liberal.

  19. #259

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MacCarthy View Post
    I liked her and the representative from Ohio Ryan?
    Funny he basically called the rest of them out as coastal, Ivy league elitists. And spot of that if the Dems want to win in 2020, they need to court the Mid-West with blue collar values not welfare promises.
    Yeah pretty much.

    You had the usual identity politics :wub:, somebody on Twitter summarized:
    -Beto: ''look I can speak Spanish''
    -Booker: ''I can't believe you did that trick before me''
    -De Blasio: ''I have a black son''
    -Booker: ''I'm actually black''
    -Warren (thinking) : ''don't say it, don't say it'' -referring to her fraudolent Native American heritage.

    Then you finally have someone who cares about the country and shines. Duh.

  20. #260

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Ya Julian Castro was a big winner alright, I mean his demand for tax payer funded abortions for transgender MtF will surely go over well in the rust belt.

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