View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

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  • Bernie Sanders.

    19 48.72%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 12.82%
  • Neither.

    15 38.46%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #2081

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    if hes a communist hes the first communist in history to lie about being a communist

    the best way to identify a communist: they will tell you
    Communist constantly hide the fact that they are communist.

  2. #2082
    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Communist constantly hide the fact that they are communist.
    like who?

    besides one that is about to be locked up for contempt of congress or a Luger to their head?
    Last edited by RedGuard; March 17, 2020 at 04:16 PM.

  3. #2083

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    There's been a few spies in history. But well...not sure they really count in this concept.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  4. #2084
    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    of course, but even the amateur ones often write 200 page memoirs on why they are Communist

    many converted after the fall of the Soviet Union, or only remain so "ironically". But I can't think of a serious politician that scaled back their communist ideology just to get votes, in fact its usually the other way around (pretend to be communist but actually be much more moderate) usually with communists you are either with them or you're not. Its one of the things I can at least admire about them.

    and in the case of Sanders he won as mayor and senator back when he was much more radical, so I don't really see the need he would have to tone down his views for the general public when the constituency he represents already find his views popular

  5. #2085
    RedGuard's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    I have a feeling Biden is gonna win all three states tonight and it will be over pretty much. If Bernie loses Illinois that doesn't bode well for the other states around there and it will mean besides Cali he has lost every state with 100+ delegates not counting New York

    he has no chance in Florida. Arizona may be an upset with the latino vote, but at this point that doesnt really matter. We already know latinos support sanders but the DNC doesn't care, they only seem to care about winning conservative blacks and people that have less than 20 years to live. Which are still the main voting blocks.

    This isn't the Obama coalition. This is the #resistance. They aren't coming out to vote for Biden. Which means if something were to happen to Biden in the meantime, and someone were to step into that role after the primary...well...



    Last edited by RedGuard; March 17, 2020 at 04:37 PM.

  6. #2086

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Biden's predicted to get a pretty big lead in the states that are voting tonight. That's going to extend his momentum to something that's pretty insurmountable if that happens. Especially if states keep postponing or if they outright cancel.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  7. #2087

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    like who?

    besides one that is about to be locked up for contempt of congress or a Luger to their head?
    Like the ones that enact communist policies once in power.
    Inb4 "real communism has never been tried" argument.

  8. #2088
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Communist constantly hide the fact that they are communist.
    Ahem, you really need to meet more communists. In my country at least, they talk about it non-stop. It is very very possible to learn that a person is a communist before you learn his name.
    "Hi, I would like to talk to you about the suffering of the proletariat. I am from X radical left \ sub-communist party"
    "Who the hell are you?"

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    and in the case of Sanders he won as mayor and senator back when he was much more radical, so I don't really see the need he would have to tone down his views for the general public when the constituency he represents already find his views popular
    From what I've seen, he hasn't changed his positions since then. He maaay have "matured" a bit, but certainly not enough for someone that aged 30 years since then. Sanders polls well with people below 45 because his political positions are like the political positions of the radical leftwing that has matured from 19 to 25. Not someone that was once upon a time a radical leftwing and has now moved towards the center.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Like the ones that enact communist policies once in power.
    There is a difference between "Communist policies" and "Policies some communist state adopted at some point". Also, people that enact some communist policies in their career are not necessarily communists.
    HH, it is this absolute "with us or against us" that makes it much harder to talk with you instead of talking TO you.
    There's black, there's white, there are tones of gray and there are commies.

    Sanders' plan to forcibly take the companies that were unlucky enough to be successful and reach the 100M$ threshold from the owners and give them to the greedy hands of the Unions is a communist policy.
    Medicare for all is not a communist policy, is a sensible policy.
    Taking away the guns is not a communist policy, it is in fact simply authoritarian policy (that I happen to agree with). A far right dictator would go for it too.

    PS. You will also notice that Sanders is very very open about his communist policies and his favorite views of communist regimes and his strong dislike for the billionaires etc.
    Frankly, Sanders doesn't hide that he's a communist (or communism-enthusiast because the argument of "if he was a commie, he would say so" holds water).
    Last edited by alhoon; March 17, 2020 at 11:28 PM.
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  9. #2089
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Biden's predicted to get a pretty big lead in the states that are voting tonight. That's going to extend his momentum to something that's pretty insurmountable if that happens. Especially if states keep postponing or if they outright cancel.
    I think it's pretty much done at this point.
    Biden needs to get just 45% of the remaining delegates in a two person race while having the momentum. Even if he doesn't get 1991, if he goes to the convention with 1800 and a strong lead over Sanders, of course he will be given the nomination, and rightfully so.
    Sanders needs to get 62% of the remaining delegates to get to the 1991 delegates because a broken convention = Biden wins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Sandino's movement also conducted numerous human rights violations against the indigenous people of Nicaragua. The Miskito people have never forgiven the Sandinistas and still hate them to this day. Sandinistas were also known for their mass executions and use of torture.

    You can't hide from facts. The Sandinistas are murderers.
    Both sides were horrible. I am not sure whether the Contras or the Sandinistas were worse and I don't care. Both sides should be met with contempt for their use of torture, the extensive use of paramilitaries to show terror in the hearts of the people under them and the mass executions.
    As I said, Sandino in the 20s was fighting what was practically an occupation by USA and a puppet regime of robber barons. The Sandinistas in the 80s, whether initially right or wrong (kinda right, they had the majority but it was a dictatorship) were brutal murderers.

    HOWEVER my point here with Cuba and Nicaragua was to point out that Sanders in the 80s was supporting brutal communist regimes. Not talk about these brutal communist regimes.

    And of course, My other point is: Under the Commie Sandinistas, Nicaragua had a lot of guns in civilian hands, because as it should be obvious restricting guns is not a leftwing approach nor it stops the onset of communism, in fact it makes it possible for communists to throw a revolution.
    Do you want to stop a communist revolution? Strict gun controls. Do you want to stop a fascist revolution? Strict gun controls. In fact, strict gun controls help to protect against a revolution... which is why the Founding Fathers of USA wanted people to have access to guns. So that they can start a revolution if needed.
    Last edited by alhoon; March 17, 2020 at 11:42 PM.
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  10. #2090
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Bernie got crushed, which sucks for us Bernie folk (and for anyone obeying the DNC instead of the CDC guidelines to avoid large crowds spreading Coronavirus). However, progressive Justice Democrat Marie Newsom running to replace a conservative Dem in the House at least won her race in Illinois. So there's that tiny victory for the Left.

    Meanwhile, Biden, if he has any political instincts left and wherewithal to actually compete against and fight the Republicans, will NOT allow them to outflank him on the Left to the point where they will peel away even Bernie Sanders voters, let alone swing voters and Independents who are financially struggling in the new Great Recession 2.0. The Republicans like Mitt Romney and Tom Cotton and Steve Mnuchin are all coming out in favor of a temporary version of Andrew Yang's UBI to help stabilize the economy and put money back into American's pockets so they can live and maintain some level of consumer spending to grease the wheels. Pelosi was apparently hesitant to add this to her own House bill that already had watered down protections for American workers in regards to paid sick leave in a time of a lethal pandemic on the scale of the 1918 Spanish Flu.

    With all of that in mind, the Democrats are playing with fire and the Republicans will take advantage of that come November.

    Trump could of course just lie about it, but he could hint at promoting Bernie's Medicare for All while pointing to the Democratic primary debates about how Joe Biden might cut Social Security for the elderly Boomers that form much of his base. Good God, I don't want to imagine Tom Cotton running for president and coming out in favor of the public option or even M4A in 2024; the Dems would lose hard since they'd lose to the nationalists and to the socialists who would form...the National Socialists.

    https://twitter.com/TheDCSentinel/st...47619042410496

  11. #2091

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Sanders' plan to forcibly take the companies that were unlucky enough to be successful and reach the 100M$ threshold from the owners and give them to the greedy hands of the Unions is a communist policy.
    This is stupidly false. Sanders' plan does not envision giving companies to Unions in any shape or form, nor if he did it wouldn't be a communist policy.
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  12. #2092
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    nor if he did it wouldn't be a communist policy.
    OK, you got me there, I am not sure it would count as communist policy since there is still capital even if it's controlled by the Union. A truly commie policy would be for the state to get those shares. Also I think you know that when I said "give companies to the Unions" I meant the 45% voting power and 20% of shares to workers. Yes, technically that's not giving the companies to the unions, that's giving part of the company to the unions. And yes, technically it's not 100% pure communism but a step towards it.
    Happy now?
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  13. #2093

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    OK, you got me there, I am not sure it would count as communist policy since there is still capital even if it's controlled by the Union. A truly commie policy would be for the state to get those shares. Also I think you know that when I said "give companies to the Unions" I meant the 45% voting power and 20% of shares to workers. Yes, technically that's not giving the companies to the unions, that's giving part of the company to the unions. And yes, technically it's not 100% pure communism but a step towards it.
    Happy now?
    Sigh... It's not giving any part of the company to any Union. Period. 45% of the board doesn't even have to be made up of workers. It's only that the 45% of the board will be elected by the workers. It's a step towards communism as much as public education is a step towards communism.
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  14. #2094
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    45% of the board doesn't even have to be made up of workers. It's only that the 45% of the board will be elected by the workers.
    What's the difference between the two? Do you think the Unions would elect someone that is [B]not[/B a Union leader for the couchy, well-paying, important positions on the board? I really don't think so. As such the 45% will be controlled by the Unions as they will be voting their leaders.
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  15. #2095

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    What's the difference between the two? Do you think the Unions would elect someone that is [B]not[/B a Union leader for the couchy, well-paying, important positions on the board? I really don't think so. As such the 45% will be controlled by the Unions as they will be voting their leaders.
    Not the Union. There is no union in this scheme. You can't continue this charade by merely ignoring facts that you don't like.
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  16. #2096

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Ahem, you really need to meet more communists. In my country at least, they talk about it non-stop. It is very very possible to learn that a person is a communist before you learn his name.
    "Hi, I would like to talk to you about the suffering of the proletariat. I am from X radical left \ sub-communist party"
    "Who the hell are you?"
    I'm talking about high-ranking politicians, not your average college kid.
    Also example of Sander's staffers kinda speaks for itself.
    There is a difference between "Communist policies" and "Policies some communist state adopted at some point". Also, people that enact some communist policies in their career are not necessarily communists.
    HH, it is this absolute "with us or against us" that makes it much harder to talk with you instead of talking TO you.
    There's black, there's white, there are tones of gray and there are commies.

    Sanders' plan to forcibly take the companies that were unlucky enough to be successful and reach the 100M$ threshold from the owners and give them to the greedy hands of the Unions is a communist policy.
    Medicare for all is not a communist policy, is a sensible policy.
    Taking away the guns is not a communist policy, it is in fact simply authoritarian policy (that I happen to agree with). A far right dictator would go for it too.

    PS. You will also notice that Sanders is very very open about his communist policies and his favorite views of communist regimes and his strong dislike for the billionaires etc.
    Frankly, Sanders doesn't hide that he's a communist (or communism-enthusiast because the argument of "if he was a commie, he would say so" holds water).
    I would be more concerned with other stuff Sanders would have tried to pass.
    As for his healthcare plan, it is simply fiscally unfeasible and other Democrats would be the first to block it.
    Like I said, I'd be more concerned with him attempting to disarm population or introduce speech laws, which is something Democrats would eagerly support him on.

  17. #2097
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Not the Union. There is no union in this scheme. You can't continue this charade by merely ignoring facts that you don't like.
    There is totally Unions in this scheme. The Union leaders would be the ones elected by the workers for the board.

    Yes, the few things in the description we have don't explicitly name Unions (nor they say it won't be Unions). But it would be the Unions running the show because the Unions represent the workers and the Union leaders are elected by the Unions. Remember that in those cases, before we go to the company elections for the board, there would have been union elections. And in such elections workers would have already voted. The Unions represent the workers.

    So, even in the case that those 45% won't automatically be chosen by the Unions and are chosen by the workers ... that means the Unions again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I'm talking about high-ranking politicians, not your average college kid.
    Well, Sanders was once your average college kid that 50 years later, with more or less the same ideas, happens to be a high ranking politician. Because we're in that stage where a college kid's ideas in a 75-years old guy's head threaten to become mainstream in the democratic party. I am not surprised a 30-years-old like AOC supports these things. I am surprised a 75-years-old supports these things.
    People are supposed to grow up...


    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Also example of Sander's staffers kinda speaks for itself.
    Hmmm? What do you mean? Does he have communists in the staff? I ... would not be surprised if he does. I would be surprised if he doesn't actually.
    If that's not what you mean, then please explain what do you mean.


    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Like I said, I'd be more concerned with him attempting to disarm population or introduce speech laws, which is something Democrats would eagerly support him on.
    Neither of those are communist policies. It is policies authoritarians on either side of the divide have taken.
    Sanders is more lukewarm towards those two issues than Biden I think.

    But whether I agree or disagree with gun control (I agree), if an American want to keep his or her guns... he or she should vote for a Republican governor. The rhetoric about guns etc etc by the presidential candidates is more or less wishful thinking as the states themselves decide on the issue. The PotUS can't do much about it.
    Congress perhaps (not sure) but it is actually mostly to the states. Trump can win with 75% and state33 can still opt to go for very strict gun controls and Trump can't do anything about it. Biden can win with 75% and state33 can still opt to go for lax gun controls and Biden can't do anything about it.

    And even if the democrats pass a federal law in the house, the Republicans in the senate will stop it.


    As for free speech: No, I don't think the majority of Democrats have any issue with it. Including Biden or Sanders.
    Some rank and file may screetch about prohibiting the N-word or making certain speech illegal but it won't happen as I haven't heard any serious politician go for it. Limiting free Speech is different than saying "you can't work for the government if you say X".
    Last edited by alhoon; March 18, 2020 at 11:33 AM.
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  18. #2098

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    There is totally Unions in this scheme. The Union leaders would be the ones elected by the workers for the board.

    Yes, the few things in the description we have don't explicitly name Unions (nor they say it won't be Unions). But it would be the Unions running the show because the Unions represent the workers and the Union leaders are elected by the Unions. Remember that in those cases, before we go to the company elections for the board, there would have been union elections. And in such elections workers would have already voted. The Unions represent the workers.

    So, even in the case that those 45% won't automatically be chosen by the Unions and are chosen by the workers ... that means the Unions again.
    I find myself needing to post this over and over again:



    You keep making stuff up based on your lack of knowledge on the matter as you keep admitting it. You show clear confusion on how unions work as well. Unions often encompass an entire industry. Your idiotic arguments would suggest that one union leader would represent workers across hundreds of companies. Even Sanders' own campaign doesn't envision 100% union membership in his presidency. He hopes to only double what is today, which is about 10%. Of course, I'm ignoring the ridiculousness of treating unions as the spawn of evil. They're not.
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  19. #2099
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Stop calling Sanders communist.
    Where the Coronavirus meets the State. Who plans, state officials or decentralized private individuals in the market?
    Ronald Reagan,
    government is not the solution to our problem.Government is the problem.
    And now,once again,
    France could nationalize big companies if necessary: finance
    I won’t hesitate to use all means available to protect big French companies.
    Ironic, isn't it? France is ready to protect big companies through nationalization. As we know, the United States has a long history of nationalizing in times of crisis.

    Download the PDF and read " A History of Nationalization in the United States: 1917-2009"
    https://thenextsystem.org/sites/defa...-Hanna-NSP.pdf



    According to Sanders,"nationalizating the power industry is not radical". Where Sanders meets Roosevelt, Nationalizing the Power Industry Isn't Radical | The New ...

    In his successful 1932 presidential bid, Franklin D. Roosevelt railed against the “monstrosity” of private utility holding companies and argued that people should have the right to take control of their privately owned power lines.
    He didn’t want all utilities under public ownership, to be sure, but “where a community—a city or county or a district—is not satisfied with the service rendered or the rates charged by the private utility,” Roosevelt said in one campaign speech, “it has the undeniable basic right, as one of its functions of Government, one of its functions of home rule, to set up, after a fair referendum to its voters has been had, its own governmentally owned and operated service.”
    Last edited by Ludicus; March 18, 2020 at 12:44 PM.
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  20. #2100
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    OK, you got me there, I am not sure it would count as communist policy since there is still capital even if it's controlled by the Union. A truly commie policy would be for the state to get those shares. Also I think you know that when I said "give companies to the Unions" I meant the 45% voting power and 20% of shares to workers. Yes, technically that's not giving the companies to the unions, that's giving part of the company to the unions. And yes, technically it's not 100% pure communism but a step towards it.
    Happy now?
    This consistently hysterical and quite frankly grotesque anti-union stance of yours is highly irresponsible, as I've said in a previous post, especially now that we are in the midst of a real pandemic infecting hundreds of thousands of people or more (given lack of testing) across the globe. It is the UNIONS in this case who are actually being responsible and shutting things down instead of helping to spread the damn virus. For instance, in the US, the United Auto Workers got a bunch of plants in Detroit to shut down even though management wanted to keep the factories running and potentially spreading the virus by having their workers clock in like nothing was out of the ordinary: Detroit automakers agree to UAW request to shutter U.S. plants

    A similar thing happened in Spain just recently: 'Cannot Go On Like This': Ordered to Work Despite Coronavirus Outbreak, Spanish Autoworkers Shut Down Mercedes Factory

    The fact that these companies, obviously motivated by profit and pleasing shareholders at the cost of everything else, do not have their own worker's best interests at heart from the very beginning or society at large for that matter means yes, there absolutely should be 45% elective union representation on corporate boards. Given the situation we're in right now, saying otherwise is a threat to national security if our goal is containment of the virus and ensuring the health and safety of industrial workers and society at large. Workers forced to come into work, especially those without paid sick leave like many in the US, become carriers and spreaders of the disease at a time when we need to blunt the curve. In the long run this is the fiscally responsible thing to do, to do everything in our power to shorten the amount of days or even months of this virus wreaking havoc, tanking the global economy.

    EDIT: I'd also like to point out that Alhoon's entire ideology is hilariously self-defeating, since a capitalist society with strong unions and a happier, contented working class labor force is the best antidote AGAINST communism, since communists only start to grow in numbers in dumb, oppressive societies that attempt to stifle workers, abuse them, and cause them to think the system needs to be changed with revolution. There would be nobody like Bernie Sanders in mainstream politics calling for major changes had the USA just joined the rest of the industrialized world in guaranteeing basic necessities like universal healthcare, a public good on par with having a public funded fire department or police department or military protecting you the laborer, homeowner and consumer from lethal danger and financial ruin.

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