USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

[PointOfViewGun]

Or, so you think, because my posts explained very well why Sanders is a commie and showed us you had no valid argument to the contrary.

It's not a matter of my opinion. You are unable to ground your assertion on basic tenets of communism. In no way does Sanders advocate total transfer of property from individuals to the state. What you do is slander.

[Heathen Hammer]

Nobody thinks that.

Based on what? The current schism between incompetent socialists and corrupt and crooked globalist neolibs is rather well-known and obvious to public. it seems that Democratic party is in major a crisis because its leadership is too corrupt and unable to perform basic functions or decision-making.
If I were a chief strategist in DNC, I'd just cut the losses and start thinking of 2024.

[Ludicus]

It's not a matter of my opinion. You are unable to ground your assertion on basic tenets of communism. In no way does Sanders advocate total transfer of property from individuals to the state. What you do is slander.

Indeed. In my dictionary,defamation.Communism bears no relationship to democratic socialism. Democratic socialists don't hate capitalism.The market economy is a system that has a lot of merit, but needs to be fixed. The rising inequality needs to be fixed.


I'm out of time today, but I will come back to this tomorrow.

...corrupt and crooked...

Sanders is crystal clear,

Drug companies hate us. Insurance companies hate us. The fossil fuel industry hates us. The military industrial complex hates us. The 1% hates us. You know why? Because we're going to take on their greed and corruption. And we're going to win.

--
Clarity and coherence. Addressing the empty chairs. Follow the link https://streamable.com/4etcu

[Heathen Hammer]

There is no such thing as "democratic socialism", as socialists tend to crush democracy every time they get a modicum of political power.
Let's call them what they are - communists. Not that I have any sympathies to globalist neoliberal scum like Bloomberg or that Booty guy whose name nobody cares to remember.
It is a good thing that Democratic Party is torn between these two vile ideologies of socialism and globalist neoliberalism.

[Ludicus]

There is no such thing as "democratic socialism", as socialists tend to crush democracy every time they get a modicum of political power.

You are wrong.

[Heathen Hammer]

You are wrong.

I am right, as far as plenty of examples throughout history is concerned. "Democratic socialism" is just propaganda re-branding for socialism and communism, both ideologies being anachronistic utopian cults that were thought up for 1850s industrial Europe and have no application in modern day and age.

[Aexodus]

If democratic socialists don’t want to overturn capitalism Ludicus, why does John McDonnel advocate that very thing, and almost every socialist I’ve heard says they want ‘system change’.

[Ludicus]

almost every socialist I’ve heard says they want ‘system change’.

Not the capitalist system, not the democratic system. Listen to Piketty. Video, previous post. As I said before, I'm out of time today, but I will come back to this tomorrow.
Meanwhile,in English,

I am right, as far as plenty of examples throughout history is concerned

You are genuinely wrong, HH.Look at Europe. Quoting myself, #1236

why are people called communist when they clearly aren't? Denmark is the most recent example of Social Democratic success in Europe. Frans Timmermans is a top leading Socialist in the EU. Sweden? well, there's no other European country where social democrats have been so successful for so long. The situation in Austria has been characterized by repeated grand coalitions between the Social Democrats and the conservatives.
Portugal is the Europe's beacon of social democracy since 2015.And guess what, Portugal's finance Minister is the Eurogroup President. Is Portugal a communist country? really?
Spain has a socialist government. European nations run universal health services; France is the longtime leader in universal healthcare.

You are probably too young to know that my Party was at forefront of fighting against fascism- and against the communists, after the Carnation Revolution.
Good reading: "Communism in History and Theory: the European experience". I don't even need to read books, I know from firsthand experience what I'm talking about. We defeated the communist threat, several decades ago. Precisely here, on this avenue, on 19 July 1975...


(It says: "It's necessary to respect popular will". That's the reason why I want Trump defeated at the ballot box)

...after an historical (more than 3 hours) and heated, tense TV debate between the leader of the PS Party and the Communist Party. Sadly, there are no English subtitles. Our Spanish residents are able to understand Portuguese. http://bit.ly/2iw5Ozt

In fact, Portuguese Citizens' Support forDemocracy: 40 Years after

The Carnation Revolution that took place inPortugal 40 years ago, on 25 April 1974, did not just mean the end of theEstado Novo (New State) authoritarian regime; it initiated the ‘thirdwave’ of democratisation, which, in turn, triggered an exponential growth indemocracies throughout the world.

And there you go.

[Heathen Hammer]

You are genuinely wrong, HH.Look at Europe.

Denmark and other such countries are social democracies, where larger public sector is explained by relatively low population density and large amount of resources, obviously these countries are still very capitalist.
Such system is clearly inapplicable in context of US due to demographic and geographic differences.
If you want to look at socialism, then look atg Warsaw Pact countries, USSR, East Asian and South American socialist regimes - they all failed economically.
So "democratic socialism" is same old socialism and communism, just with a slightly different name, but essence is the same - anachronistic economic theory from 1800s industrial Europe that bears no practical relevancy to fiscally sane demographic.

[Aexodus]

@Ludicus social democrats and socialists are two different things.

[Ludicus]

"democratic socialism" is same old socialism and communism, just with a slightly different name, but essence is the same

We also have a lot of right wingers who think in the same way as you do. However, a strong left and the memory of fascism keep the country relatively free of far-right forces and the neoliberal program of our right wing parties (CDS and PSD) is no longer acceptable for the majority of voters. In fact,today people have a clearer sense of what they do and do not want.

Denmark and other such countries are social democracies where...larger public sector is explained by relatively low population density and large amount of resources,

We don't have a large amount of resources. Under a neoliberal government,in 2103, the country's jobless rate hit a startling 18% of the working population.The unemployment rate in Portugal dropped to 6.1 percent in the third quarter of 2019 from 6.3 percent in the previous three-month period and below last year's 6.7 percent,one of the largest reductions in any OECD country over the past decade.The steady, solid recovery of the Portuguese economy under the leftist government (PS) is, in fact, grounded in lasting structural changes in skills, investment, export orientation, and in the labour market.We have reformed our social security and education, training systems and we also reformed the labour market and the financial sector. Mario Centeno, the Eurogroup President, says" Many of my economist friends call it the "darling of Europe".

Such system is clearly inapplicable in context of US due to demographic and geographic differences.

I don't think so.Read Piketty.

look atg Warsaw Pact countries, USSR,

Why should I? A socialism of misery in communist countries isn't my cup of tea. Read above.

[Heathen Hammer]

UPDATE: Apparently Sleepy/Creepy Joe went Full Alzheimer and is now stating that video games teach children how to kill people. Poor senile guy probably thought its 2003 right now and that such narratives are actually still taken seriously by soccer moms or people that think WWE is real. That's what happens when you let corporate donors who are out of touch with reality to decide on things like that.

[irontaino]

UPDATE: Apparently Sleepy/Creepy Joe went Full Alzheimer and is now stating that video games teach children how to kill people. Poor senile guy probably thought its 2003 right now and that such narratives are actually still taken seriously by soccer moms or people that think WWE is real.

Don't forget about Don the Con and the Republican party, remember this gem?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

That's what happens when you let corporate donors who are out of touch with reality to decide on things like that.

Always ironic coming from a Trump supporter.

[alhoon]

It's not a matter of my opinion. You are unable to ground your assertion on basic tenets of communism. In no way does Sanders advocate total transfer of property from individuals to the state. What you do is slander.

You don't have to advocate a total transfer of property from individuals to state to be a communist.
You have to just believe that's the better thing to do is to have public ownership of the means of production and classless, stateless society. Sanders does believe that but he doesn't advocate that too hard because he is also respectful of what the majority consider the best. He is a communist, in fact more hardcore communist that the communist party of Greece. He is just a communist that is willing to work within a democratic framework and tolerate other viewpoints even if he believes that nationalization of the means of production is the way to go.

And here is the communist's plan to do it: https://www.peoplesworld.org/article...of-production/
"... continued his campaign to win widespread union support for next year’s Democratic nomination by saying he will propose workers take ownership of individual plants and businesses, removing them from the hands of the bosses and financiers who back them.
...
“We can move to an economy where workers feel they’re not just a cog in the machine—one where they have power over their jobs and can make decisions,” Sanders told The Washington Post."

That's communism.

His way to do it? Not a bloody coup but:

" One Sanders plan would create “worker wealth funds” which corporations would be required to contribute into, and which would both pay dividends to the workers and buy shares in those firms to give workers ultimate voting control. " <=== would gradually give workers the whole company with money from the company's profits.
"His other proposal would mandate workers sit on corporate boards in all circumstances—regardless of how much stock they hold. "

Those two plans are pure insanity and clear-cut communist plans.
People that open a business with their money, would have to contribute part of their revenue to workers so that the workers would buy out the company eventually. You start with a company and gradually lose it to greasy-hand workers... that sit on the corporate board just because.
I am sure those plans would surely bring tons of investors...

[Cope]

Always ironic coming from a Trump supporter.

Except of course, Trump's 2016 campaign was funded almost exclusively by himself and unsolicited individual donations.

[Morifea]

Except of course, Trump's 2016 campaign was funded almost exclusively by himself and unsolicited individual donations.

Nope. Try better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald...paign_finances

[Mithradates]

Not the capitalist system, not the democratic system.

democratic socialism vs social democracy

The difference between the two is that social democrats support practical reforms to capitalism as an end in itself whereas democratic socialists ultimately want to go beyond mere social democratic reforms and advocate systematic transformation of the economy from capitalism to socialism.

[Cope]

Nope. Try better.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald...paign_finances

Try better what? Where does that say that Trump was a regular recipient of corporate donations?

[PointOfViewGun]

There is no such thing as "democratic socialism", as socialists tend to crush democracy every time they get a modicum of political power.
Let's call them what they are - communists. Not that I have any sympathies to globalist neoliberal scum like Bloomberg or that Booty guy whose name nobody cares to remember.
It is a good thing that Democratic Party is torn between these two vile ideologies of socialism and globalist neoliberalism.

I am right, as far as plenty of examples throughout history is concerned. "Democratic socialism" is just propaganda re-branding for socialism and communism, both ideologies being anachronistic utopian cults that were thought up for 1850s industrial Europe and have no application in modern day and age.

Can you give an example of a person advocating for democratic socialism who also advocates for transfer of ownership of property from the individual to the state?

You don't have to advocate a total transfer of property from individuals to state to be a communist.
You have to just believe that's the better thing to do is to have public ownership of the means of production and classless, stateless society. Sanders does believe that but he doesn't advocate that too hard because he is also respectful of what the majority consider the best. He is a communist, in fact more hardcore communist that the communist party of Greece. He is just a communist that is willing to work within a democratic framework and tolerate other viewpoints even if he believes that nationalization of the means of production is the way to go.

And here is the communist's plan to do it: https://www.peoplesworld.org/article...of-production/
"... continued his campaign to win widespread union support for next year’s Democratic nomination by saying he will propose workers take ownership of individual plants and businesses, removing them from the hands of the bosses and financiers who back them.
...
“We can move to an economy where workers feel they’re not just a cog in the machine—one where they have power over their jobs and can make decisions,” Sanders told The Washington Post."

That's communism.

His way to do it? Not a bloody coup but:

" One Sanders plan would create “worker wealth funds” which corporations would be required to contribute into, and which would both pay dividends to the workers and buy shares in those firms to give workers ultimate voting control. " <=== would gradually give workers the whole company with money from the company's profits.
"His other proposal would mandate workers sit on corporate boards in all circumstances—regardless of how much stock they hold. "

Those two plans are pure insanity and clear-cut communist plans.
People that open a business with their money, would have to contribute part of their revenue to workers so that the workers would buy out the company eventually. You start with a company and gradually lose it to greasy-hand workers... that sit on the corporate board just because.
I am sure those plans would surely bring tons of investors...

Yes, you do have to. It's the definition of communism. To be a communist you need to advocate the idea of transfer any and all property ownership from the individual to the state. You are trying to hallow out out definitions of labels to use those labels freely. One of essential pillars of communism is that the state owns everything, not the workers. Partial factory ownership is a common occurrence in Europe. It provides better job security for workers. Having a worker representative in the board is nothing radical. Warren proposed it as well. Countries such as Austria, Denmark, Croatia, France, Germany, Hungary and some other European countries already have it mandated. Worker wealth fund is not some scheme that gradually buys out a company. There is a limit to how much such a fund can buy parts of the company. It's merely scheme to share the wealth of a company when its successful. It forces the owners and CEOs to share the success of the company with its workers instead of continuing to pay them the same lousy salaries.

Neither has anything to do with communism. These are direct responses to greedy owners that refused to share the same increase in wealth that they have been enjoying thanks to the hard work of their employees.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

alhoon, you are turning this into an other "i did not know agreements had to be ratified to be valid" moment. You're trying to jumble up quite popular proposals with communism by openly defying what communism actually means. They are not even fully socialist ideas. Do you know what these labels actually mean?

[Morifea]

Try better what? Where does that say that Trump was a regular recipient of corporate donations?

You`re right, it seems like I confused something.... to early at the morning.