View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

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  • Bernie Sanders.

    16 51.61%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 16.13%
  • Neither.

    10 32.26%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #1641
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    How to respond to Russian election interference when you’re not a shamelessly corrupt piece of :


    One must surely wonder why the enemies of the United States do not want moderate Democrats to be president. It’s certainly one hell of an endorsement. Should be an easy win in a sane world. Campaign slogan: “Putin wants me to lose.” Landslide victory.
    As Ludicus said, Putin wins if USA is busy with USA. Empires fall from within. Take it from a Greek that has seen his country dominate the world and lose that power thrice.

    Sanders will certainly not unite the USA. Sanders is too far to the left and he is unwilling to compromise his beliefs after so many years. Add to that the partisan loyalty Republican movers and shakers have over the party. With Sanders as Trump's opponent, there will be so much bile from the Republicans that a Sanders' presidency would be mired with "he's not my president" etc.
    If it was bad with Obama it would be x2 as bad after "the stolen election" screams against the "communist president".

    Putin wins if the elections are Trump vs Sanders whomever wins.
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  2. #1642

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    There is a crossover between the "interests of Donald Trump the individual" (ie. appointing people he can trust who're committed to his program) and the interests of the nation. The false binary is in assuming that Trump appointing "loyalists" (which is standard political practice around the world) necessarily contrasts with national security.
    Sure, there is a crossover, and there are clear instances when the two are separate. There have been many instances where Trump has acted against the interests of the country. Appointing yet another Trump sycophant who does not appear to be qualified for the job, is yet another instance that I can point to and find Trump's judgement not just questionable, but insidious.

    No, it implies that the serious failures that the US has had with foreign and intel. policy are largely a consequence of deep state actors who've lead the public up the proverbial garden path on the a variety of issues ranging from Saddam's alleged WMD's to the US's mission in Afghanistan to the NSA's domestic spying campaign.
    Serious failures of US foreign policy are due to a number of actors and institutions, not just the intelligence community. In short, the conduct of U.S. foreign policy is due to ideological beliefs and attitudes that's shared among the entire country, not simply the existing bureaucracy within the White House. Hence why Trump's policies draw criticism from a wide range of academic, political, and trade circles.

    This is for another thread. I don't want to get into the way federal prosecutors abused their role for political purposes by demanding an excessive sentence in the Stone case.
    You're free to open another thread and build the case for this, but the burden of proof is on you.

  3. #1643
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Sure, there is a crossover, and there are clear instances when the two are separate. There have been many instances where Trump has acted against the interests of the country. Appointing yet another Trump sycophant who does not appear to be qualified for the job, is yet another instance that I can point to and find Trump's judgement not just questionable, but insidious.

    Serious failures of US foreign policy are due to a number of actors and institutions, not just the intelligence community. In short, the conduct of U.S. foreign policy is due to ideological beliefs and attitudes that's shared among the entire country, not simply the existing bureaucracy within the White House. Hence why Trump's policies draw criticism from a wide range of academic, political, and trade circles.

    You're free to open another thread and build the case for this, but the burden of proof is on you.
    The main point of the Stone case is not that Stone is innocent; it’s that the establishment pursued an unusually harsh (politically punitive) punishment against a Trump ally while ignoring (as usual) the flagrant abuses of Washington insiders. That’s what the president is really upset about it.

    The fact is, from the smallest PD to the Secretary of State, the establishment looks after its own. That’s why Clinton will never be tried over the emails, Benghazi or her Foundation. It’s why there’ll be no accountability over the WMD lies, why James Clapper won’t face justice for his perjury, why Biden’s Ukrainian conflict will be ignored, why Strzok and Page won’t be taken to task over their politicization of a national investigation, why the FISA abuses will be swept under the rug and why Wasserman Schultz has already got off scot-free for trying to rig the DNC primaries in 2016. And that’s before we get into a conversation about the likes of Comey, Brennan, the Steele dossier and the endless lies told about Trump’s alleged “collusion” with Russia.

    And of course, no matter what Trump does to try and get justice or truth, he’ll be accused of abusing his power. If he takes an active role in the DoJ then he’s using it “as a blunt tool to further his interests”; if he tries to investigate allegations of corruption of his own accord he’s accused of attempting a “political hit job” and impeached; if he voices opinions on Twitter he’s “intimidating witnesses” or tearing down due process; if he seeks to appoint his own WH staff and ambassadors, he’s met with a tirade of furious boot lickers crying about treason or “insidious” motives as if people like Yovanovitch and Vindman have a God given right to their positions.

    So there comes a point where you realize that there’s no point trying appease the swamp. There isn’t a move the president can make that won’t be met by the screaming of America’s entitled, humiliated Washington and media elite. The only remedy is for Trump to ignore the hysteria, get on with job of filling his WH as he sees fit (as is his constitutional right) and hope his people come through for him in November.
    Last edited by Cope; February 22, 2020 at 09:46 AM.

  4. #1644

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The main point of the Stone case (like so many other high political profile cases) is not that Stone is innocent; it’s that the establishment pursued an unusually harsh (politically punitive) punishment against a Trump ally while ignoring (as usual) the flagrant abuses of Washington insiders. That’s what the president is really upset about it.
    The bolded part is for you to prove, the underlined part is just pure speculation with an unhealthy dose of buying into the President's . The only thing Trump is upset about, is looking bad. The President's discourse in public, on camera, and his frequent Twitter outbursts dispel any notion that the President is sincerely attempting to improve the country.

    The fact is, from the smallest PD to the Secretary of State, the establishment looks after its own. That’s why Clinton will never be tried over the emails, Benghazi or her Foundation. It’s why there’ll be no accountability over the WMD lies, why James Clapper won’t face justice for his perjury, why Biden’s Ukrainian conflict will be ignored, why Strzok and Page won’t be taken to task over their politicization of a national investigation and why the FISA abuses will be swept under the rug. And that’s before we get into a conversation about the likes of Comey, Brennan, the Steele dossier and the endless lies told about Trump’s alleged “collusion” with Russia.

    And of course, no matter what Trump does to try and get justice or truth, he’ll be accused of abusing his power. If he takes an active role in the DoJ then he’s using it “as a blunt tool to further his interests”; if he tries to investigate allegations of corruption of his own accord he’s accused of attempting a “political hit job” and impeached; if he voices opinions on Twitter he’s “intimidating witnesses” or tearing down due process; if he seeks to appoint his own WH staff and ambassadors, he’s met with a tirade of furious boot lickers crying about treason or “insidious” motives as if people like Yovanovitch and Vindman have a God given right to their positions.

    So there comes a point where you realize that there’s no point trying appease the swamp. There isn’t a move the president can make that won’t be met by the screaming of America’s entitled, humiliated Washington elite. The only remedy is for Trump to ignore the hysteria, get on with job of filling his WH as he sees fit and (as is his constitutional right) hope his people come through for him in November.
    Clinton is never going to go "down" because neither her nor her entire family has actually done anything so egregious as to be "taken down" over. Her Republican opponents have hounded the Benghazi thing for months, and with the control of both Congressional chambers and the White House, had an unobstructed access to everything necessary to incriminate herself and her family. Yet they haven't, most likely because they can't find anything. On the other hand, Trump's misconduct and abuse of power is an almost daily revelation at this point.

    Trump is more than welcome to use the DoJ to pursue actual crimes and to put this whole Russia thing to an end. If he is so confident that this whole thing is merely a ploy by the Democrats to ruin his re-election chances, then he had almost an entire presidency to cooperate fully with an investigation and to show that he is completely innocent. Yet somehow, almost every single person Trump associates himself with, is being indicted or charged with something. People like Yovanovitch and Vindman and thousands of other federal employees have all managed to do their jobs under different administrations, and have had glowing appraisals of their performance. It's only when the orange buffoon has started breaking all precedent and looking into his political opponents, that things started getting dicey. Not to mention the absolutely obvious retaliatory measure Trump has taken immediately after his acquittal.

    Trump has no interest in draining the swamp. What's disturbing here, is how thorough and charitable your defense of the Trump administration is despite your previous objections to be labeled as a Trump supporter. You can stick your head in the sand if you want, but either a year from now or another four, we're all gonna find out the magnitude of Trump's incompetence, maliciousness, and treasonous behavior.

  5. #1645
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    As Ludicus said, Putin wins if USA is busy with USA. Empires fall from within. Take it from a Greek that has seen his country dominate the world and lose that power thrice.

    Sanders will certainly not unite the USA. Sanders is too far to the left and he is unwilling to compromise his beliefs after so many years. Add to that the partisan loyalty Republican movers and shakers have over the party. With Sanders as Trump's opponent, there will be so much bile from the Republicans that a Sanders' presidency would be mired with "he's not my president" etc.
    If it was bad with Obama it would be x2 as bad after "the stolen election" screams against the "communist president".

    Putin wins if the elections are Trump vs Sanders whomever wins.
    Agreed, but I would wager the difference between Trump and Sanders, if nothing else, is that Sanders would not be friendly to Putin the way Trump is. Trump sells US foreign policy to any foreign leader who can successfully flatter/extort/buy him off. Sanders wants to disarm the US for ideological reasons. Both are a dream come true for our enemies.

    The Sanders campaign openly floated the idea of closing US bases and withdrawing troops from Europe and Asia, just as Trump uses them as a bargaining chip in order to extort cash from US allies. The Kremlin and Politburo would be elated to have either of them in office, though I suspect the reason the Kremlin backs Trump more heavily is because he’s corrupt, incompetent, and eager to accept/profit from their support.

    The Founders saw the example of Athens and tried to design our Republic to avoid mob rule via populist demagogues, and yet, that is exactly where we find ourselves in 2020, with no viable alternative candidates. I wonder whether Athens really voted herself to death the way we have, though. Ashes to ashes, I suppose.

  6. #1646

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Let me put it this way. Red states like the one I got my education in can't be arsed to put a dependable public transportation network in their biggest city. And Louisville is a pretty god damn big city. And I can't medically drive. So I hauled ass out of Kentucky to an at least purple state where they see these things as at least good public investments. Ironically they also saw slightly more progressive things like medical networks and such as also good investments and my medical care got a lot cheaper AND a lot better at the same god damn time.
    Hey im European, you dont need to convince me about the benefits of a National health care system. Generally i find the typical American critique of it, very weak. Like paying for the health of others?! as if people dont already do that with the insurances busyness.

    Although as someone who lived always in a country with NHS, dont expect all your problems to be solved, on paper is great, but it depends on the context. And in the end of the day, generally you are mostly better of in the private sector. With a few rare exceptions.
    Last week two people died in ER in two different hospitals, while waiting to be seen by a doctor they never got the chance to. One waited for 4 hours, and the other for 6 hours, which imo is unacceptable of any Health system.
    Im currently dependent on its use weekly because of a chronic health issue, although the places ( clinics) im serviced, are actually Public/private/partnerships, basically is a concession to a private enterprise, while being funded by the state. But the Quality of service, and comfort, is much better then if it was just a public facility. Not to mention the Government saves money with this, because it doesn't have the conditions and means to serve people in the first place, not without a bigger investment that is. Which usually they cant afford.
    Last edited by Knight of Heaven; February 22, 2020 at 08:33 AM.

  7. #1647
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    This is for another thread. I don't want to get into the way federal prosecutors abused their role for political purposes by demanding an excessive sentence in the Stone case.
    Do offer one then. I am hard pressed to see how the original sentence guideline was excessive for a man found guilty on seven counts, and who certainly was not using the local public defender.
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  8. #1648
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Do offer one then. I am hard pressed to see how the original sentence guideline was excessive for a man found guilty on seven counts, and who certainly was not using the local public defender.
    The judge agreed that the prosecutor's demands were excessive. Stone was sentenced to 40 months, a third of the time that was sought.

  9. #1649

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    This is for another thread. I don't want to get into the way federal prosecutors abused their role for political purposes by demanding an excessive sentence in the Stone case.
    It isn't really given election time. They merely followed the policy that Jeff Sessions policy of harsher sentence recommendations that William Barr never changed. It seems that when his friend Roger Stone is under the gavel he's suddenly more interested in the Eric Holder "case-by-case" policy that brought about slightly more lenient recommendations.

    Though in Trump's case for Stone, he was screaming about the fact that the case happened at all. Nevermind the fact that it was a Republican controlled Intelligence Committee that complained about him lying in the first place. Thanks Nunes!
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  10. #1650
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    It isn't really given election time. They merely followed the policy that Jeff Sessions policy of harsher sentence recommendations that William Barr never changed. It seems that when his friend Roger Stone is under the gavel he's suddenly more interested in the Eric Holder "case-by-case" policy that brought about slightly more lenient recommendations.
    As I've just mentioned, the judge agreed that the prosecution's recommendation was excessive.

    Though in Trump's case for Stone, he was screaming about the fact that the case happened at all.
    It's true that Trump was upset about the case going to trial in the first place, though part of his frustration was/is with flagrant manner in which Washington insiders (just like Wall St. executives) are able to evade justice.

  11. #1651

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    It's true that Trump was upset about the case going to trial in the first place, though part of his frustration was/is with flagrant manner in which Washington insiders (just like Wall St. executives) are able to evade justice.
    I guess Stone shouldn't have lied to Trump's Republican allies?
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  12. #1652
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    I guess Stone shouldn't have lied to Trump's Republican allies?
    As I stated, I'm not contesting Stone's guilt only the double standards.
    Last edited by Cope; February 22, 2020 at 11:07 AM.

  13. #1653

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    As I stated, I'm not contesting Stone's guilt only the double standards.
    Dude. They spent 3 to 11 years trying to pin the tail on the donkey depending on which democrat and/or fired executive you want to look at but could never make anything stick. They either suck at their job or there's nothing there to find. How much more time you want them to take?
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  14. #1654
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Dude. They spent 3 to 11 years trying to pin the tail on the donkey depending on which democrat and/or fired executive you want to look at but could never make anything stick. They either suck at their job or there's nothing there to find. How much more time you want them to take?
    Or, as I claimed here, the ruling class/elites are excellent at protecting insiders.

  15. #1655

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Or, as I claimed here, the ruling class/elites are excellent at protecting insiders.
    Contrary to popular opinion over 324 million Americans manage to go to work their entire lives without even getting indicted. Nevermind needing the protection as insiders.
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  16. #1656
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I wonder whether Athens really voted herself to death the way we have, though. Ashes to ashes, I suppose.
    Nah, Athens towards the end was using $$$ to fund expensive adventures in foreign lands that benefited the few at the expense of the many, clouding the water with patriotic cries, the promise of future profits (or a lustrous career) for the opportunists, bread & circuses for the easily distracted, presenting those other lands as a potential threat for the paranoid etc.
    Oh, wait...
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  17. #1657
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Nah, Athens towards the end was using $$$ to fund expensive adventures in foreign lands that benefited the few at the expense of the many, clouding the water with patriotic cries, the promise of future profits (or a lustrous career) for the opportunists, bread & circuses for the easily distracted, presenting those other lands as a potential threat for the paranoid etc.
    Oh, wait...
    Heh. First as a tragedy, then as a farce.

  18. #1658
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Nah, Athens towards the end was using $$$ to fund expensive adventures in foreign lands that benefited the few at the expense of the many, clouding the water with patriotic cries, the promise of future profits (or a lustrous career) for the opportunists, bread & circuses for the easily distracted, presenting those other lands as a potential threat for the paranoid etc.
    Oh, wait...
    Hang on, I seem to remember that the neoliberal "moderates" of the European Union had a hand in destroying Greece too.

  19. #1659
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Hang on, I seem to remember that the neoliberal "moderates" of the European Union had a hand in destroying Greece too.
    I don’t think we can brush over the Greek Prime Minister; giving the country a referendum on a an austerity programme + bailout, then agreeing to an even harsher one after the country voted 61% against.
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  20. #1660
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    And in the end of the day, generally you are mostly better of in the private sector. With a few rare exceptions.
    It depends. I know inside out the private and public health sector. Get a relatively long hospitalization (four or more days in a private hospital) a cancer, a severe disease, surgeries, costly, expensive treatments and you will see the difference. Private hospitals are for profit hospitals.Health insurance don't pay you costly, long time treatments. Furthermore, it must be said, a significant percentage of private hospital funding is provided by your government. Ask the Hospital da Luz, Lusiadas, CUF, where the money comes from. It comes from the health subsystems parallel to the NHS (SNS) - ADSE, IASFA,ADM,SAD-PSP,SAD-GNR. The private sector can barely survive without them. Estado paga mais de metade das despesas dos hospitais
    On a side note,the current number of PPP (public-private partnerships) has been recently reduced. Relatório Especial n.º 9/2018: Parcerias Público-Privadas na UE
    See paragraph V.
    In English. Public Private Partnerships in the EU - European Court of ...
    Potential benefits of PPPs were often not achieved, as they suffered delays, cost increases and were under-used, and resulted in 1.5 billion euro ineffective spending
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    Not to mention the Government saves money with this,
    Not exactly, read above.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    Last week two people died in ER in two different hospitals, while waiting to be seen by a doctor they never got the chance to.
    True, but it rarely happens.Manchester triage failed, that's what happened.
    Waiting time:
    Red code: zero minutes
    Orange code: 10 minutes
    Yellow code : one hour
    Green code : two hours
    Blue code: until four hours.
    -----
    The mean time is about 1 hour and half.It depends on peak flu activity. But you can use the app MySNS Tempos – SNS
    It shows you the Manchester scale. You can choose another hospital.
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 22, 2020 at 01:34 PM.
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