View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

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  • Bernie Sanders.

    16 51.61%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 16.13%
  • Neither.

    10 32.26%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #1521
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    I'd rather have Sanders flip the table over instead of continuing the same trajectory of Democrats compromising with an increasingly radical right-wing Republican party.
    Amen. Sanders his point is about taking away financial burdens so people can actually focus on living instead of surviving. Fact is in most traditional Western countries socialists/ liberals/ humanists/ nationalists coexist in a democracy with capitalism.
    The USA? USA is the anomaly.A major traditional difference is that the USA is the only country in the world that doesn't understand that socialism keeps liberal capitalism in check. Some people need to grow up.
    As a European it's always a good laugh to see that conservative Americans still see socialists as boogeymen.Come on, it's the USA that dragged the entire world into the financial crisis in 2008.
    Netflix, extended interview.
    The best comment: "Why is a comedian asking intelligent questions; and letting the candidate actual answer the question in detail. Isn't this the role of reporters on mainstream media?"



    --
    Sanders now leading in electability,

    NH CNN Poll: "Who do you think has the best chance of winning in November?"
    Sanders 29% (+9 Since Jan 23)
    Biden 25% (-16)
    Buttigieg 14% (+6)
    Warren 6% (-1)
    Bloomberg 3% (+1)
    Klobuchar 2% (-)
    Gabbard 2% (-)
    Yang 2% (+1)



    Last edited by Ludicus; February 10, 2020 at 12:20 PM.
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  2. #1522
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Sanders has largely become the ideological yardstick by which the other candidates are forced to either measure up or distinguish against. I don’t know how much further the party is supposed to go when the man who markets himself as the most progressive candidate in the race has already shifted the overton window of Democrat party politics toward his end of the spectrum.
    The presidential candidates lurching to the left to prevent Sanders outflanking them is a case of too little too late (probably). The Dems. have had years to find a prominent, popular, non-senile moderate who was willing to extol the virtues of regulated market economics and the necessity of robust social protections (which includes Medicare for All). If the party end up escaping with Buttigieg, it will be out of luck rather than judgement and it won't solve any of the underlying discontent.

    The failure of the GOP to do anything but briefly clutch pearls every time Trump does whatever he wants, including in Syria, is evidence enough of the party’s slavish conformity to Trump’s whims; this despite efforts to reassure the public that they have the situation under control.
    > Trying to disprove my point about Dem. polemic by citing Dem. polemic.

    At least many of the leading comments are surprisingly reassuring.

    Democrat voters want a moderate candidate.
    We will find out what the Dem. electorate wants in due course. The preferences of battle ground state voters is separate issue.

    There’s no one candidate for the moderate vote to coalesce around.
    As above, that's largely a result of the Dem. establishment's inability to find a prominent, popular moderate to act as the party's standard bearer. Biden's resurrection (much like Clinton's) is looking increasingly like a fail. If he flops tomorrow, he'll probably be done.

    Maybe Sanders has enough momentum to run away with the nomination in the meantime, maybe he doesn’t and his supporters stay home in the general. Half of Sanders supporters plan to support any other nominee if their candidate doesn’t win, compared to 80-90 % of supporters of other frontrunners.
    In which case, and in accordance with your point about contested states, we should expect 80-90% of the mostly moderate Dems. in said contested states to vote for Sanders in the general (meaning that he has the best chance of beating the flan man).

    I don’t know what kind of coalition can be formed with people who are more interested in a particular candidate than in uniting behind a platform supported by the majority of Americans.
    One which is predicated on collective TDS (hence the endless bawling).

    Buttigieg seems confident he can defend his prior experience as a matter of quality over quantity. As I said, with Biden and Warren sinking, I don’t personally consider it lacking in comparison to Sanders or Trump. Neither do I see the utility of debating what “the usual standards” are as a way to say Buttigieg is unqualified.
    You're the one who wants a return to "normalcy". From the point of view of qualifications that means someone who's had congressional or governorship experience and/or who's held a senior position in the military. Buttigieg doesn't even have a background in law (a common prior profession for presidents) and would be the youngest leader in US history. Whether or not he "seems confident" that he can defend his record (or lack thereof) doesn't mean that he's actually running on a "qualified resume". Even Harris had better credentials.

    Sanders is the standard bearer of identity politics in the race among any supposed front runners, touting his level of support among racial minorities, and attacking other candidates as elitist and ideologically fraudulent.
    Then presumably you agree with me that the Dems. ought to do something to rein in the ideological excesses of many colleges which promote the sort of far left/liberals views which you're complaining about (it's no coincidence that Sanders has strong support among students).

    College educated Democrats tend to prefer other candidates to Sanders who are perceived as more moderate, in 2016 as well as 2020.
    You'll note I said young (<29 yrs.) and college educated, not just college educated (Sanders is miles ahead among current students). Of course the middle aged, professional middle classes (a.k.a. the "I'm all right Jack" brigade) are going to support a status quo candidates like Klobuchar or Buttigieg.

    American politics is especially obsessed with authenticity.
    I admit that I only skim read the source, but I didn't see any attempt by the authors to compare the extent to which authenticity affects US politics differently to international politics. It is observably true that the "battle for authenticity" is a key area in other countries too (anyone who is informed about British politics can see the parallels between Corbyn and Sanders and Brexit, Boris and Trump for instance.)

    The phenomenon predates and transcends any current prevalence in popular disaffection with political institutions.
    I did not claim that the allure of authentic leadership is a modern development. I also did not claim that its appeal is contingent on the existence of "popular disaffection with political institutions". What I said was that "popular disaffection with political institutions" is a key factor in explaining its current potency in the political marketplace.

    Buttigieg considers the public option to be a natural vehicle by which M4A can be implemented.
    Buttigieg can consider what he likes; the fact is that he doesn't support universal healthcare. Sanders' people know that, irrespective of what he says, a Buttigieg victory would put national coverage back, minimally, by eight years (and probably much more).

    He’s proposed free college for all below a set income cap. He pledged to pull troops out of Afghanistan, and to reallocate military spending away from “endless wars.” The latter positions are in line with the public consensus, which supports a public option more broadly than M4A, believes military spending to be at the right level, and is split on free college. Recent polling of Democrats indicates opposition to the free college for the wealthy, and a belief that people should be able to keep their private insurance if desired. Sanders supporters certainly don’t like Buttigieg for ideological reasons. However, in terms of policy goals, being more in line with public consensus on major issues would preclude dismissing him as the proverbial billionaire’s Manchurian candidate.
    You seem to be proving my point that Buttigieg is a PR candidate whose policy positions are derived from polling data rather than any sort of conviction, understanding of the issues or meaningful vision for America.

    Again, overturning Citizens United as part of campaign finance reform is at the core of the Democrat Party platform. There’s also a sizable campaign finance reform bill from the House that’s been collecting dust in the Senate for nearly a year now. The DNC can run their debates however they want.
    The DNC introduced the unique donor conditions to ensure that all the candidates on the stage had recognizable grassroots support (a mechanism designed to limit the impact of big money donations). These conditions were then waived to facilitate a neocon. oligarch who has zero ground game but who's recently donated ~$1m. to the DNC. No one has claimed that this poorly disguised quid pro quo was illegal, but there's no point talking the talk if you aren't going to walk the walk.

    Sanders supporters rank Buttigieg alongside Bloomberg as an alternate choice, despite the fact Buttigieg is often closer to Sanders on policy than is Bloomberg, especially on taxation, education, and healthcare.
    According to the chart, I could say the same about Buttigieg supporters. They "rank Sanders alongside Bloomberg as an alternative choice, despite the fact Sanders is often closer to Buttigieg on policy than is Bloomberg, especially on taxation, education and healthcare."
    Last edited by Cope; February 10, 2020 at 04:10 PM.

  3. #1523

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    So who's it going to be Bloomberg or Sanders?

    Both are political suicide for the Democrats. Sanders external because he will get destroyed in the national election, and Bloomberg because he will tear apart the Democratic party with the pissed off Sandanistas.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  4. #1524
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Sanders has a pretty good shot at the national if the polling data is accurate. Obviously things could change between now and Nov. but I wouldn't just assume that he'll lose. That's an establishment Dem talking point designed to discourage people from voting for Sanders in the primaries.
    Last edited by Cope; February 10, 2020 at 10:04 PM.

  5. #1525

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Sanders has a pretty good shot at the national if the polling data is accurate. Obviously things could change between now and Nov. but I wouldn't just assume that he'll lose. That's an establishment Dem talking point designed to discourage people to vote for Sanders in the primaries.
    I have to hold out hope that the electorate isn't at this level of foolishness yet.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  6. #1526
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    I have to hold out hope that the electorate isn't at this level of foolishness yet.
    I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you: the people who'll be most disappointed by a Sanders presidency are his ideological devotees.

  7. #1527
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    The presidential candidates lurching to the left to prevent Sanders outflanking them is a case of too little too late (probably). The Dems. have had years to find a prominent, popular, non-senile moderate who was willing to extol the virtues of regulated market economics and the necessity of robust social protections (which includes Medicare for All). If the party end up escaping with Buttigieg, it will be out of luck rather than judgement and it won't solve any of the underlying discontent.
    The Democrats as a party have made progressive policies a cornerstone of the party platform; never mind meeting progressives “half way on a variety of policy issues.” The center has always been around for Sanders to compromise with. He chose not to. That’s his brand. He doesn’t even register as a Democrat except to run for president.
    > Trying to disprove my point about Dem. polemic by citing Dem. polemic.

    At least many of the leading comments are surprisingly reassuring.
    I cited a self-described “Trump appointee” who is “not of the left.” The RNC has been trying to pull Trump to their version of the center for 4 years. Instead, the tail wags the dog. The failure of the GOP to do anything but briefly clutch pearls every time Trump does whatever he wants, including in Syria, is evidence enough of the party’s slavish conformity to Trump’s whims.
    We will find out what the Dem. electorate wants in due course. The preferences of battle ground state voters is separate issue.

    As above, that's largely a result of the Dem. establishment's inability to find a prominent, popular moderate to act as the party's standard bearer. Biden's resurrection (much like Clinton's) is looking increasingly like a fail. If he flops tomorrow, he'll probably be done.

    In which case, and in accordance with your point about contested states, we should expect 80-90% of the mostly moderate Dems. in said contested states to vote for Sanders in the general (meaning that he has the best chance of beating the flan man).
    The polls have any Democrat frontrunner tied with or slightly leading Trump. I see no reason why the Democrats should embrace their Tea Party just to fight fire with fire or prevent a revolt among Sanders supporters, who already consider the DNC an ideological enemy as it is. If it were a primary between Sanders and not Sanders, he would lose.

    It would suck if we’re stuck picking between “socialism” and Trumpism because of a vocal minority and a split vote that resulted in essentially a third party candidate winning the Democratic nomination. As I said, Democrats want a moderate candidate, but they can’t pick just one. Maybe Sanders has enough momentum to run away with the nomination in the meantime, maybe he doesn’t. His supporters’ relative unwillingness to support the party’s nominee merely underscores their unreliability as a base.
    You're the one who wants a return to "normalcy". From the point of view of qualifications that means someone who's had congressional or governorship experience and/or who's held a senior position in the military. Buttigieg doesn't even have a background in law (a common prior profession for presidents) and would be the youngest leader in US history. Whether or not he "seems confident" that he can defend his record (or lack thereof) doesn't mean that he's actually running on a "qualified resume". Even Harris had better credentials.
    Indeed I do want a return to normalcy. My thoughts on Buttigieg’s qualified resume are a function of the candidates left in the race, how likely they are to win, and their respective policy positions in relation to said normalcy. It wouldn’t be relevant to who I might want to be president if I could pick anyone, or whatever one wants to say the usual standards are in order to say Buttigieg is unqualified.
    Then presumably you agree with me that the Dems. ought to do something to rein in the ideological excesses of many colleges which promote the sort of far left/liberals views which you're complaining about (it's no coincidence that Sanders has strong support among students).

    You'll note I said young (<29 yrs.) and college educated, not just college educated (Sanders is miles ahead among current students). Of course the middle aged, professional middle classes (a.k.a. the "I'm all right Jack" brigade) are going to support a status quo candidates like Klobuchar or Buttigieg.
    Based on the above assumption that older people want to maintain the status quo, it makes sense that younger people would want to change it.
    I admit that I only skim read the source, but I didn't see any attempt by the authors to compare the extent to which authenticity affects US politics differently to international politics. It is observably true that the "battle for authenticity" is a key area in other countries too (anyone who is informed about British politics can see the parallels between Corbyn and Sanders and Brexit, Boris and Trump for instance.)

    I did not claim that the allure of authentic leadership is a modern development. I also did not claim that its appeal is contingent on the existence of "popular disaffection with political institutions". What I said was that "popular disaffection with political institutions" is a key factor in explaining its current potency in the political marketplace.
    From the article:
    Given its socially constructed and thus elusive nature, authenticity itself can never be authentic, but must always be performed, staged, fabricated, crafted, or otherwise imagined [....] As a socially constructed myth, authenticity is produced through discourses that valorize certain qualities and assign or attribute them to cultural objects and symbols as a means of creating distinction, whether of status, prestige, or value.

    Along with urban entertainment, the staging of authenticity is particularly pronounced in US politics. National electoral campaigns stage local “town hall” meetings as excessively orchestrated affairs that attempt to recall an idyllic American past, while presidential visits to public schools, factories, poor neighborhoods, and flooded cities often serve as little more than opportunities to be photographed in working-class settings with ordinary citizens.

    https://works.bepress.com/david_grazian/12/download/
    What I said was that populist “authenticity” as a required political qualification is a uniquely American disease, from what I’ve seen, and it’s the problem, not the solution. I don’t presume to know all the ways similar phenomena have manifested in other countries.
    Buttigieg can consider what he likes; the fact is that he doesn't support universal healthcare. Sanders' people know that, irrespective of what he says, a Buttigieg victory would put national coverage back, minimally, by eight years (and probably much more).
    Universal healthcare is at the core of the Democrat Party platform at this point. The question is how to implement it. Nothing about a public option, or “Medicare for all who want it,” implies “setting back” universal healthcare vs Sanders’ M4A.
    You seem to be proving my point that Buttigieg is a PR candidate whose policy positions are derived from polling data rather than any sort of conviction, understanding of the issues or meaningful vision for America.
    Representing the views of the voters =/= a lack of conviction or meaningful vision. What you’re alluding to here has more to do with perceived political “authenticity.”
    The DNC introduced the unique donor conditions to ensure that all the candidates on the stage had recognizable grassroots support (a mechanism designed to limit the impact of big money donations). These conditions were then waived to facilitate a neocon. oligarch who has zero ground game but whose recently donated ~$1m. to the DNC. No one has claimed that this poorly disguised quid pro quo was illegal, but there's no point talking the talk if you aren't going to walk the walk.
    Again, overturning Citizens United as part of campaign finance reform is at the core of the Democrat Party platform. There’s also a sizable campaign finance reform bill from the House that’s been collecting dust in the Senate for nearly a year now. I don’t understand the utility of scrutinizing DNC debate rules as a way to say Democrats aren’t “walking the walk” on campaign finance reform.
    According to the chart, I could say the same about Buttigieg supporters. They "rank Sanders alongside Bloomberg as an alternative choice, despite the fact Sanders is often closer to Buttigieg on policy than is Bloomberg, especially on taxation, education and healthcare."
    According to the chart, it doesn’t really make sense that Sanders supporters would rank Buttigieg with Bloomberg if “they just don't like his policies.” Sanders supporters certainly don’t like Buttigieg for ideological reasons, like being “morally tainted” by corporate donations. I’ve no problem imagining that people who rank Buttigieg as first choice, and rank Bernie near Bloomberg, may do so just because they don’t like Sanders.

  8. #1528

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you: the people who'll be most disappointed by a Sanders presidency are his ideological devotees.
    Sanders would guarantee a republican house and senate by 2022 but still the damage would be great. Imagine him for example in charge of the military? I don't think the democrats have him properly handled, otherwise they wouldn't be so terrified of hm being the nominee.
    "When I die, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like Fidel Castro, not screaming in terror, like his victims."

    My shameful truth.

  9. #1529

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by reavertm View Post
    Which has not been confirmed they didn't.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9313481.html

    Recalled after Pete's campaign called DNC, just minutes before scheduled release, long after its been conducted after alleged omission of Pete's name when reading candidates' names (like people didn't know he was running, admittedly there are plenty of democratic candidates this time around). Doesn't sound a bit, just tiny bit sketchy?
    Oh, and coin-tossing during caucus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xhNSH5Pns4. Not sketchy at all. I'm sorry, that's Banana States of America.
    If they'd confirmed they'd polled correctly they'd just go "frak off Pete, we're publishing it, too bad for you".

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    Sanders would guarantee a republican house and senate by 2022 but still the damage would be great. Imagine him for example in charge of the military? I don't think the democrats have him properly handled, otherwise they wouldn't be so terrified of hm being the nominee.
    I'm not the most worried in the world. The sheer culture shock that racks through his brain if he gets the nomination and starts getting briefings and has a clue what really goes on in the world?
    Last edited by Gaidin; February 11, 2020 at 03:29 PM.
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  10. #1530

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Would be funny if Sanders is elected, and then Russians "accidentally" leak KGB archives on him being their agent.

  11. #1531

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Would be funny if Sanders is elected, and then Russians "accidentally" leak KGB archives on him being their agent.
    What, because he was a mayor of a sister city? Come up with a better conspiracy at least. This is less plausible than the pee tape.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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  12. #1532

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Im gonna switch my party affiliation to vote for Bernie; I'm sure many Republicans in open primaries will turn out for him

  13. #1533
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Food for thought.
    As we know already, in America, the popular vote doesn't count. Sanders beats Buttigieg by 6,000 votes in Iowa. Buttigieg gets an extra 2 delegates. Bernie beats Buttigieg by 4,000 votes in NH, they split delegates. Rural Iowa and NH areas keep Buttigieg ahead of Sanders.
    The US Today praises the current system."Rural Americans would be serfs if we abolished the Electoral College. Should rural and small-town Americans be reduced to serfdom?"
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; February 12, 2020 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Irrelevant.
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  14. #1534

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Sanders is infinitely more electable outside of the Midwest. The centrist vote is too divided at this point. Sanders has the edge. His voting base is also more diverse this time around.

  15. #1535
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    Sanders is infinitely more electable outside of the Midwest. The centrist vote is too divided at this point. Sanders has the edge. His voting base is also more diverse this time around.
    We'll see how he does in South Carolina. That'll be the real test for Bernie.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/buttigieg...150125978.html

    So far the only candidate polling well in South Carolina is Biden.
    Last edited by Vanoi; February 12, 2020 at 09:37 AM.

  16. #1536
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    On the one hand, a lot of democrat voters say they’re undecided still. On the other, the moderate wing failed to coalesce around a candidate, despite considerable support for Buttigieg as a sort of compromise candidate, I suppose; even in nearly all white states, IA and NH. No Democrat in the last 4 decades has won those two primaries and lost the nomination. Even if it can be said Buttigieg barely won IA, like Clinton in 2016, she had the moderate vote all to herself. Given Bernie’s advantage among minorities and people without college degrees, I’d wager the race is his to lose at this point, even if it goes all the way to the convention.

  17. #1537

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    A close 2nd in South Carolina is, in my opinion, a net win for Sanders. We're only two states deep, but Biden's performance has bee a terrible blow. He has to win by significant margins in South Carolina and Nevada at least to make up for these defeats. Buttgieg has followed a good strategy, but I honestly can't see him going past March.

  18. #1538
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    A close 2nd in South Carolina is, in my opinion, a net win for Sanders. We're only two states deep, but Biden's performance has bee a terrible blow. He has to win by significant margins in South Carolina and Nevada at least to make up for these defeats. Buttgieg has followed a good strategy, but I honestly can't see him going past March.
    Yea and according to the article its Biden polling the best. Even Pete got the endorsement of a local black representative. I don't see Bernie even making third.

  19. #1539

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    5/38 is telling me his lead has shrunk considerably. But, we'll see. I'm not particularly high on Biden right now given his messaging, nevermind how he performed.

  20. #1540

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Wait till the DNC machine revs up for the candidate they decide on in large states like California and New York. They're going to throw the kitchen sink full of endorsements, speakers, money, events, etc. at whoever they anoint. Obama will come out of hiding and endorse Joe and rally the ticket behind him or Buttigeg or Klobacher or Bloomberg. Republican establishment endorsements didn't do anything to stop Trump because they are loathed by the base. The DNC establishment is very much embraced by the base and is going to drive turnout for whoever they anoint. If Biden does poorly in SC they will force him out of the race.

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