View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

Voters
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  • Bernie Sanders.

    16 51.61%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 16.13%
  • Neither.

    10 32.26%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #1481

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post

    He chose not to sell his soul.

    <snip>

    Ideologically speaking, there is a right wing (Biden, backed by billionaires) a moderate right wing (Buttigieg, backed by billionaires) and the left wing (Sanders/Warren)
    You should find out where the oh so pure Warren got her warchest before listing her anywhere.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  2. #1482
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    You should find out where the oh so pure Warren got her warchest before listing her anywhere.
    I said "He", not "She".
    Warren? oh I see,October, 15,Elizabeth Warren swears off major donations from Facebook
    ...And she wants the other Democrats to do so as well
    Elizabeth Warren’s presidential campaign announced on Tuesday that it will no longer take large donations from executives working at big tech companies like Facebook and Google.
    In a Medium post, Warren pledged to refuse any contributions totaling over $200 from executives of big tech companies, banks, private equity firms, and hedge funds. More specifically, her new contribution rules apply to Alphabet, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Lyft, and Uber, among others. Personal donations are capped at $2,800 when contributing to individual campaigns.
    According to The Wall Street Journal, this policy applies to past contributions as well. The campaign will compare the names of individual contributors with leadership teams listed on corporate websites.
    ----
    For Republicans, the revenge is a dish best served cold Joe Biden Could Be Impeached Over Ukraine If He Wins: GOP ...
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  3. #1483

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    I said "He", not "She".
    Warren? oh I see,October, 15,Elizabeth Warren swears off major donations from Facebook


    ----
    For Republicans, the revenge is a dish best served cold Joe Biden Could Be Impeached Over Ukraine If He Wins: GOP ...
    Right after she moved her big donor senate warchest up to the Presidential race. Warren ain’t that clean.

    So you know. Listing her anywhere is a tad ironic on your part.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  4. #1484
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I could, and in fact have, made the equal and opposite argument - that the left has always been around for the center to compromise with. The truth is (and this is where Sanders' people have a point) that leading Dems like Clinton, Obama and Biden are, on many issues, as right wing as many of their conservative counterparts outside of the US. They're also correct that moneyed interests have far more influence over politics than they ought to.
    The assertion was that the DNC should have embraced Sanders to pull him to the center, and presumably, to capitalize on his populist support base. If Sanders had any interest in being the center of the Democrat party, he wouldn’t have spent his career explicitly distinguishing himself from the Democrat party.
    Contrary to popular belief, Trump has consistently appeased the Republican establishment on policy. Cutting taxes, deregulating the market, attempting to reverse the ACA, appointing con. judges, increasing defense spending, ending the Iran deal, opposing abortion (even if he can't do anything about it), opposing addition federal firearms restrictions, limiting certain entitlements, not bending to climate activism and restricting immigration are all exactly what I'd expect from a Republican president. Off the top of my head, the only area where he's successfully deviated from the default is on renegotiating NAFTA and US-China trading relations and cancelling TPP. He tried to avoid direct involvement against Assad and failed. He tried to withdraw from Syria and was comprehensively slapped down by his neocon allies.
    There are umpteen ways in which Trump is the polar opposite of the principles the GOP claims to uphold. From the cynical standpoint of political calculus, however, he delivers. That is part of the reason why the GOP slavishly defends him, even while he treats them like a battered wife, to the point where they wouldn’t even entertain the pretense of having witnesses at the impeachment trial, mostly to avoid his wrath. The other reason is, by the same token, that they can’t afford not to protect him, because he is the party now. Hence the tail wagging the dog. Piss him off, and you get primaried, because Trump enjoys increasingly loyal support from a shrinking Republican base. Nobody liked Bush, everybody liked Obama, so rather than move away from their more unpopular policies and rebrand, the GOP went full tard to survive.

    The Democratic Party, on the other hand, enjoys the majority of public support on key issues. Obama was one of the most popular presidents in modern history. Hillary won the popular vote. Where’s the payoff in embracing a guy who doesn’t even want to be in the party? Let Bernie take his supporters and run on the DSA ticket if he thinks his “grassroots campaign” doesn’t need the national infrastructure and credibility of the filthy corporate DNC. Only half of his supporters plan to support the nominee if he doesn’t win anyway.
    Being a junior military officer and mayor of a small town for a bit isn't "qualified" by the usual standards. Holding - or having held - senior political (Senator/Congressman/Governor) or military office(s) is the normal expectation.
    Buttigieg has the closest thing to the usual standards of any supposed frontrunner other than Biden or Warren. Hence being third choice in a field of second choices in a world where an openly corrupt failson is POTUS. He has a better resume IMO than a Senator from Vermont whose primary qualifications are being ideologically consistent and surviving a heart attack. At a bare minimum, I’ll trust a scandal-free soldier who went to Harvard and Oxford on a merit scholarship to act in the best interests of the nation, more than I would either a career protestor, or the guy who spent the last 4 years telling us how much more he trusts a KGB officer than the people who dedicated their lives in service to the Republic.
    Buttigieg is the PR candidate: he's young, clean cut, ex-military, sans scandal, bland, talks exclusively in managerial rhetoric and ticks a diversity box. He's what you might call the Dem establishment's presidential window dressing. And, if his campaign is anything to go by, he'll almost certainly be Washington's yes-man if he wins the White House.
    ....which, without the kind of leadership that lives in the nation’s past, is exactly what the country needs: a return to normalcy that lasts at least long enough for the extremists on either side of the aisle to politically starve absent the ability to feed off the other’s power or position in the public sphere.
    Authenticity is a key attribute of successful leadership because (for obvious reasons) it's an indicator of affinity and trustworthiness. Not that I've heard any Sanders' voters complaining about Buttigieg for being "boring" though. They just don't like his policies or his connections with corporate/billionaire donors.
    “Authenticity,” whether that means ideological purity, or the proverbial ability to “sit down and have a beer with someone,” exists only as far as political marketing and virtue signaling can take it. It’s an especially American fantasy born as a side effect of the belief in our unique and inherent virtue as a people.

    Sanders supporters certainly don’t like Buttigieg for ideological reasons, like being “morally tainted” by corporate donations. Overturning Citizens United as part of campaign finance reform is at the core of the Democrat party platform at this point. If the reason that only 3% of Sander supporters name Buttigieg their second choice is because he supports transitioning to M4A via a public option, then they’re welcome to oppose something that enjoys the broader of public support.

  5. #1485

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    I find it quite ironic, how DNC in Iowa redistributed chunk of Sander's votes, just like he would with capital.

  6. #1486
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar I am your sovereign now
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Latest news from Iowa: with 96% of the vote counted, Bernie Sanders is now only 0.1% behind Buttigieg in terms of the vote and tied for 11 delegates. The county that has yet to be fully accounted for has been reported as being strongly pro-Bernie, so he is most likely going to win Iowa days later. Putting conspiracy theories about the app failure designed by a shady company literally called "Shadow" aside, the whole point of winning Iowa is to gain media attention and a boost for one's campaign going into other states. The debacle in Iowa has certainly helped Buttigieg who statistically isn't favored in other states as he was the apparent winner for days. If Bernie actually is the winner here, he was kinda robbed of that early momentum. I won't say anything further without further evidence that something nefarious actually happened, although it certainly smells like it.

    As for this conversation about the differences between Buttigieg and Sanders, the latter would almost certainly be considered the progressive candidate had he been running against Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton in the 2008 primary, especially with his advocacy for the public option being included in the ACA that got canned thanks to Joe Lieberman's efforts in the Senate back in 2009-2010. However, while candidates like Warren and Steyer certainly advocate for progressive policies in tackling climate change, Sanders is clearly the most progressive in the field right now on big issues like healthcare. People in the US are finally waking up to the fact that Canadians and British people don't go bankrupt from medical bills, or pay 500 billion dollars for one goddamn ambulance ride to the hospital, sometimes even with insurance. Our healthcare system is a nightmare, even with "Obamacare" and that is a huge reason why Sanders is surging.

    As for polling, the next state New Hampshire is clearly going to be won by Bernie as well: https://www.commondreams.org/news/20...-new-hampshire

    Sanders having 32+ percent is enormous when the other second place tying candidates Biden and Warren only hover around 13+ percent, with Buttigieg and Klobuchar at 12+ percent. Certain media outlets can try to spin it as much as they like but a candidate who wins both Iowa and New Hampshire is usually unstoppable later on. In fact, historically, I don't think there has been a Democratic primary candidate who has lost overall after winning both Iowa and New Hampshire in these early rounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    I find it quite ironic, how DNC in Iowa redistributed chunk of Sander's votes, just like he would with capital.
    Haha, very funny. Yeah, I heard about that "correction" they had to make in Black Hawk County where oops! Some of Bernie's delegates "accidentally" went to Deval Patrick and Tom Steyer, but were fixed when the county released their own data ahead of the IDP. Funny how that happens!

    As for Sanders redistributing capital, he basically wants to do that slightly more than present Democrats and Republicans but certainly far less so than a truly social democratic country like Sweden. Even Republicans "redistribute" wealth if you think about where our tax dollars are currently going and what they are funding. For instance, our military doesn't pay for itself. Although that would be cool if it actually did generate capital in a self-sustaining way somehow. Also, while they have tried several times to cut Social Security and Medicare for the elderly, even Republicans can't touch these time-honored golden gooses of the legislature, a legacy stretching back to FDR's New Deal. It's no wonder that "Medicare for All" as championed by Sanders is now supported by a clear majority of Americans: https://www.kff.org/health-reform/po...-january-2020/

  7. #1487

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    You're right in that regard R_V. The Iowa thing is really just for national attention. It lets voters know who is hot at the moment and who isn't. Regardless of whether Sanders or Buttgieg wins, they both got what they wanted out of it. Buttgieg got the massive boost in publicity he wanted and Sanders has pretty much proven himself as a frontrunner, if not the frontrunner. I'm pretty sure he's going to end up being the Dem. nominee.

  8. #1488
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Sanders having 32+ percent is enormous when the other second place tying candidates Biden and Warren only hover around 13+ percent, with Buttigieg and Klobuchar at 12+ percent. Certain media outlets can try to spin it as much as they like but a candidate who wins both Iowa and New Hampshire is usually unstoppable later on. In fact, historically, I don't think there has been a Democratic primary candidate who has lost overall after winning both Iowa and New Hampshire in these early rounds.
    Although SC could be a wild card. Will a tie in Iowa and a clear with NH be enough to convince the black vote that its Bernie's day, and that Biden's race has been run. Will it go to one of the moderates.
    I think Bernie has the Left progressive side probably locked up. Biden poor showing means he is not the lead for the moderate/centrist wing but whom? I think Klobuchar has the problem of Hillery loosing and too many will shy away from a women. Pete is too small town and seems to easy to drop centrist drivel that sounds good not as bad as Biden but still annoying. Which god(or goddess or gods) I hope not Bloomberg to grasp that mantel if he spends enough. When you talk to dems the fear is electibilty. HC's lose I think dooms a women, and a lot people are going to be spooked by the fear of the power of the socialism tag - but at the same time loosing the Bernie bros on the far left if they are total dicks could be just as costly.
    Last edited by conon394; February 06, 2020 at 11:49 AM.
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    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #1489
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Sanders supporters certainly don’t like Buttigieg for ideological reasons, like being “morally tainted” by corporate donations.
    Let's not exaggerate. Buttigieg is a good guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    a Senator from Vermont whose primary qualifications are being ideologically consistent and surviving a heart attack.
    ... and honesty, solidarity, endurance, generosity and friendship- four secrets of a long life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    If Sanders had any interest in being the center of the Democrat party, he wouldn’t have spent his career explicitly distinguishing himself from the Democrat party.
    ...explicitly trying to change for the better the Democratic Party.Sadly, the opposite happens.The "Politburo" isn't happy: DNC members discuss rules change to stop Sanders The Politico

    In conversations on the sidelines of a DNC executive committee meeting and in telephone calls and texts in recent days, about a half-dozen members have discussed the possibility of a policy reversal to ensure that so-called superdelegates can vote on the first ballot at the party’s national convention. Such a move would increase the influence of DNC members...
    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    I'm pretty sure he's going to end up being the Dem. nominee.
    Read above, my friend.

    -----
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Right after she moved her big donor senate warchest up to the Presidential race. Warren ain’t that clean.

    So you know. Listing her anywhere is a tad ironic on your part.
    Anyway, Warren supports progressive policies. Hillary insists she is a progressive, now that's ironic.US election: Hillary Clinton insists she is a progressive - BBC ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Latest news from Iowa: with 96% of the vote counted, Bernie Sanders is now only 0.1% behind Buttigieg in terms of the vote and tied for 11 delegates. The county that has yet to be fully accounted for has been reported as being strongly pro-Bernie, so he is most likely going to win Iowa days later.
    Good news

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    As for Sanders redistributing capital, he basically wants to do that slightly more than present Democrats and Republicans but certainly far less so than a truly social democratic country like Sweden.
    Indeed. For now... "...time advances.We decide if society advances with with". Right " https://twitter.com/i/status/1221968255184703489


    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    It's no wonder that "Medicare for All" as championed by Sanders is now supported by a clear majority of Americans: https://www.kff.org/health-reform/po...-january-2020/
    Americans never cease to amaze me-in a positive way.

    while candidates like Warren and Steyer
    Steiner is a generous soul, I like him.
    ---
    While considering health care policies, healthcare- for those interested: Medscape Medical News-Medical Groups Criticize Trump Bid to Limit Federal Medicaid Funding

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    WASHINGTON — Physician and consumer organizations criticized a Trump administration proposal they described as an initial step toward limiting Medicaid spending through a block-grant approach.
    The Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) on Thursday unveiled an effort to allow states to test new approaches to covering the working poor. CMS pitched its idea as a bid to allow state officials more flexibility for administering the giant health program, which covers about 65 million Americans.
    But major medical organizations described it as an attempt to erode gains made in recent years in helping working Americans secure healthcare.

    Six physician groups on Thursday issued a joint statement firmly opposing CMS' plan. These were the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP), the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, the American College of Physicians, the American Osteopathic Association, and the American Psychiatric Association.
    "The CMS guidance issued today fundamentally alters the Medicaid program in a way that disproportionately burdens states, threatens the public safety net and makes it more difficult for our patients to get the care they need," said the groups in their statement.

    The CMS Plan

    In a letter on Thursday, CMS spelled out guidance to state Medicaid directors on how to apply for permission to conduct demonstration tests of the redesigning of benefits for adults who are younger than 65 and are not disabled. In exchange for accepting new limits on Medicaid funding, CMS might allow states more flexibility in redesigning benefits.
    CMS described its aim as a bid to bolster "the sustainability of government health care spending through use of an annual budget neutrality limit."

    "Demonstrations approved utilizing this approach will offer states far greater flexibility and discretion than is available under ordinarily-applicable Medicaid rules as well as the freedom to manage their programs within certain parameters and expectations without the need for complex amendments or advance federal approval of certain changes," CMS said in the letter.
    In its letter to Medicaid directors, CMS pitched the idea of allowing more limited drug formularies as a way to improve states' bargaining clout on pharmaceutical prices.
    The CMS proposal, dubbed Healthy Adult Opportunity, is targeted largely toward people who gained Medicaid coverage through President Barack Obama's signature domestic law, the Affordable Care Act (ACA) of 2010.

    In a Thursday speech, CMS Administrator Seema Verma noted that about 15 million people have qualified for Medicaid since 2014 through provisions of the ACA. This law provides states with federal money to enable states to raise income thresholds and thus allow more people to qualify for Medicaid.
    "The program was not originally designed for this group," Verma said in a statement.

    CMS said Healthy Adult Opportunity would not directly affect others covered by the state-federal program, such as children, pregnant women, senior citizens, and people with disabilities. In CMS' view, these groups could see improvements in care "that result from states reinvesting savings to improve and sustain Medicaid for everyone."


    In a press release, CMS pitched this initiative as an attempt to clear administrative red tape that can thwart experimentation with healthcare policy. The agency said it intends to use a "streamlined application template" for proposing changes, such as the waiving of retroactive coverage periods and the instituting of premiums and cost sharing.
    States will "have the opportunity to customize the benefit package for those covered and make needed program adjustments," CMS said in the letter. "This will be in real-time without lengthy federal bureaucratic negotiations or interference."

    "Drastic Changes" to Safety Net

    AAFP and other signers to the joint statement saw another motive for CMS' proposals.
    "Block grants and per capita caps have a singular purpose: to reduce federal funding to states," the groups wrote in the letter. "These drastic changes to Medicaid threaten to force states to choose between cost-saving measures like eliminating benefits, implementing waitlists, reducing eligibility, or cutting payments to physicians and other clinicians when federal funds run out."
    CMS has framed its proposal so as to pave the way for a series of demonstration projects to test a new approach to funding Medicaid. AAFP and the five other groups pointed out that there already is a clear example of how capping Medicaid payments works.

    "As we've seen in Puerto Rico, a block grant model leaves states and localities much more vulnerable to unpredictable events like natural disasters when more people need to enroll in the program," AAFP and the other groups said. They urged CMS to rescind the new guidance on Medicaid.

    The American Medical Association (AMA) on Thursday said it opposed the idea of caps on federal Medicaid funding, such as block grants. These would decrease the number of Americans with health insurance and "undermine Medicaid's role as an indispensable safety net," said Patrice A. Harris, MD, president of the AMA, in a statement.

    Also opposed to the CMS proposal were such diverse groups as the American Society of Clinical Oncology (ASCO), AARP, the consumer group Families USA, and the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC). AAMC CEO David J. Skorton, MD, said the CMS initiative "would give states the option to receive federal Medicaid funding in what essentially are block grants.
    "This guidance would limit the federal government's congressionally mandated responsibility to the Medicaid program and could result in reductions in coverage, access, and quality care for the millions of vulnerable patients who rely on this critical program," Skorton said in a statement.
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 06, 2020 at 12:03 PM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  10. #1490

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Medicare as a public option is a better option in my opinion. It can be slowly expanded over the years. There's already a lot of data and a lot of reform we can do in regards to medicare, medicaid... It's just that touching either of those programs is a political risk. Medicare for all is a much bigger risk.

  11. #1491
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Forgive me if I’m being ignorant, but would abolishing any private option not be step past what the UK for example has. Here you have the option of the NHS or going private.
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  12. #1492

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Who wants to abolish all private healthcare?
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; February 06, 2020 at 01:03 PM.
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  13. #1493
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    “Yes, we should essentially eliminate private health insurance,” Sanders told The Post. “Private insurance as it exists today is nothing more than a confusing morass designed to make people jump through hoops before they can actually get the care they need.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...ate-insurance/
    No one has examined the full economic impact of such plans on jobs, wages, investors, doctors and hospitals — or the health insurance companies themselves. Such an undertaking would be difficult, given the vagueness of key parts of the proposals being discussed and the wide-ranging possible effects.
    There are few international analogues to the Medicare for all proposals, but Canada, which provides similar doctor and hospital benefits for its residents, probably comes closest. Even there, people buy private insurance for benefits that are not covered by the government program, like prescription drugs and dental care.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/23/h...e-sanders.html
    Though both proposed changes to the nation’s health care system have majority support, a public option that would compete with private health insurance plans continues to garner more support than the more sweeping change presented in a Medicare-for-all plan

    https://www.kff.org/health-reform/po...-january-2020/
    The same has been true for over ten years. Obamacare was a compromise with the GOP against the public option. The idea of a public option may be ideological heresy for the Sanders wing, but the American people have been consistent, nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2009 Polls
    “Now I’m going to read you some different ways to increase the number of Americans covered by health insurance. As I read each one, please tell me whether you would favor it or oppose it […]

    “Creating a public health insurance option similar to Medicare to compete with private health insurance plans.”

    Favor: 68% (40% strongly favor)
    Oppose: 28% (17% strongly oppose)

    “Creating a public health insurance option to compete with private health insurance plans.”

    Favor: 65% (32% strongly favor)
    Oppose: 29% (17% strongly oppose)

    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/public-support-for-public-option

  14. #1494
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Fresh news.The saga goes on.Tom Perez, a few minutes ago,
    Enough is enough. In light of the problems that have emerged in the implementation of the delegate selection plan and in order to assure public confidence in the results, I am calling on the Iowa Democratic Party to immediately begin a recanvass.
    So, The Iowa Democratic Party responded, saying it is prepared if "any presidential campaign" makes a request.


    -----
    According to the Census Bureau, Income inequality in the U.S. is at an all-time high
    ...The disparity grew despite a surging national economy that has seen low unemployment and more than 10 years of consecutive GDP growth.The most troubling thing about the new report, says William M. Rodgers III, a professor of public policy and chief economist at the Heldrich Center at Rutgers University, is that it "clearly illustrates the inability of the current economic expansion, the longest on record, to lessen inequality."
    --
    The Rich Can't Get Richer Forever, Can They? | The New Yorker

    In 1831, Alexis de Tocqueville, at the age of twenty-five, was sent by France’s Ministry of Justice to study the American penal system. He spent ten months in the United States, dutifully visiting prisons and meeting hundreds of people, including President Andrew Jackson and his predecessor, John Quincy Adams. On his return to France, he wrote a book about his observations, “Democracy in America,” the first volume of which was published in 1835. Many of the observations have weathered well (he noted, for instance, how American individualism coexisted with conformism). Others have not. For example, Tocqueville, who was the youngest son of a count, was deeply impressed by how equal the economic conditions in the United States were.
    It was, at the time, an accurate assessment. The United States was the world’s most egalitarian society. Wages in the young nation were higher than in Europe, and land in the West was abundant and cheap. There were rich people, but they weren’t super-rich, like European aristocrats.

    The prevailing ideology of the country favored equality (though, to be sure, only for whites); Americans were proud that there was a relatively small gap between rich and poor. “Can any condition of society be more desirable than this?” Thomas Jefferson bragged to a friend.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  15. #1495

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Did any bill Sanders proposed or the Medicare for All proposal of his campaign actually eliminate all private healthcare?
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  16. #1496
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Did any bill Sanders proposed or the Medicare for All proposal of his campaign actually eliminate all private healthcare?
    Absolutely not. Private healthcare insurances exist in Europe- and Canada.No one really wants to ban all private insurance. Not even Sanders
    -
    --

    Meanwhile,Sanders declares "very strong victory". I quote,
    Speaking in Manchester, New Hampshire, Sanders declared a "very strong victory" in the Iowa caucuses.
    "Even though the vote tabulations have been extremely slow, we are now at a point with some 97 percent of the precincts reporting where our campaign is winning the popular initial vote by some 6,000 votes," Sanders said. "In other words, some 6,000 more Iowans came out on caucus night to support our candidacy than the candidacy of anyone else. And when 6,000 more people come out for you in an election than your nearest opponent, we here in Northern New England call that a victory."
    Sanders said he should have given this speech three days ago, but the Iowa Democratic Party failed to count the voters "in a timely fashion."
    "That screwup has been extremely unfair to the people of Iowa," he said. "It has been unfair to the candidates, all of the candidates and all of their supporters."
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  17. #1497
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Sanders
    Let us all be very clear about this. If you support Medicare for All, you have to be willing to end the greed of the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries. That means boldly transforming our dysfunctional system by ending the use of private health insurance, except to cover non-essential care like cosmetic surgeries. And it means guaranteeing health care to everyone through Medicare with no premiums, no deductibles and no copays. It is imperative that we remain steadfast in our commitment to guarantee health care as a human right and no longer allow private corporations to make billions of dollars in profits off Americans’ health care.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/amer...ry?id=64029556

  18. #1498

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    So, even in that speech Sanders is pointing out that Medicare for All doesn't abolish all private healthcare. No one really wants to get rid of private healthcare in its entirety. As extreme as Sander's position may be, its a starting point for negotiations.
    The Armenian Issue
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  19. #1499
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Breaking news. Trump supporters swarmed the Iowa caucus phone lines to delay the results

    Lets hope it does not work again.
    ---
    From my previous link,
    Sanders' plan may allow private insurers to cover things the government doesn't, but under Sanders' plan, the government would also cover a ton. "It would cover hospital visits, primary care, medical devices, lab services, maternity care, and prescription drugs as well as vision and dental benefits," Sarah Kliff pointed out at Vox. "The plan is significantly more generous than the single-payer plans run by America's peer countries. The Canadian health-care system, for example, does not cover vision or dental care, prescription drugs, rehabilitative services, or home health services."
    In other words, while Sanders' plan doesn’t ban supplementary coverage from private insurers, it does offer such generous coverage by the government that there's not much room left for private coverage to fill any gaps. This is the logic upon which both conservative critics — and supposedly nonpartisan mainstream reporters and pundits — hang the logic that Sanders' plan would "ban" private coverage.
    In more detail,Understanding the Medicare For All Act of 2019 - PNHP
    PERI economic analysis:
    https://www.peri.umass.edu…

    Download the PDF
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 06, 2020 at 03:09 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  20. #1500
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Sanders wants to end the use of private health insurance, except to cover non-essential care like cosmetic surgeries, with no premiums, no deductibles and no copays. There are few, if any, international equivalents to this. Under the NHS, my understanding is there are a range of copays for things like dental care, eye care, prescriptions, medical braces, etc. There is also a private health insurance market in the UK that is allowed to cover a wide range of things, not just cosmetic care. So, would M4A be a step past the UK system? In many ways, yes.

    When factoring in tax increases and ending the use of private health insurance while allowing you to “keep your doctor” (Americans have heard that platitude before), KFF reports that support for M4A drops to an even split in support.
    KFF polling finds more Democrats and Democratic-leaning independents would prefer voting for a candidate who wants to build on the ACA in order to expand coverage and reduce costs rather than replace the ACA with a national Medicare-for-all plan (Figure 12). Additionally, KFF polling has found broader public support for more incremental changes to expand the public health insurance program in this country including proposals that expand the role of public programs like Medicare and Medicaid (Figure 13). And while partisans are divided on a Medicare-for-all national health plan, there is robust support among Democrats, and even support among four in ten Republicans, for a government run health plan, sometimes called a public option (Figure 14).
    While there are numerous policy options available to finance the costs of Medicare for All, there does not appear to be any plausible path to finance it with tax increases on just wealthy individuals and businesses.

    It is unlikely that policymakers could agree to enact anywhere close to $11 trillion in tax increases only on the wealthy and corporations, let alone the $30 trillion needed to fund Medicare for All. As a result, funding Medicare for All will almost certainly require broad-based taxes that apply to the middle class, either directly or indirectly (for example through an employer payroll tax or consumption tax).

    https://www.crfb.org/blogs/would-med...class-tax-hike

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