View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

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  • Bernie Sanders.

    16 51.61%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 16.13%
  • Neither.

    10 32.26%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #1401

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    Oh, he doesnt know the exact number, (the highest I heard was 97.5 trillion haha) but by now, at least he knows its magnitude, and how it is unaffordable. Thats why he wont talk about it. So Sanders team provides options to funds, to cover... what expense? Oh yeah, the expense they refuse to talk about.

    But be my guest, so how much would Bernies utopia cost?
    So, no relation to what you actually quoted? OK then. I'll take this attempt as nothing more than a weak attempt to disparage Sanders' policies... Sanders is certainly right about one thing. You can not know the exact future cost of universal healthcare. You can only estimate it and there are some studies around that. It's like asking for an exact number for the cost of a particular war to be waged. Sanders' approach is also not one of adding a benefit to the country but making a right a reality. He's not proposing a space elevator.
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  2. #1402
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You can not know the exact future cost of universal healthcare. You can only estimate it and there are some studies around that. Sanders' approach is also not one of adding a benefit to the country but making a right a reality
    Indeed. One more thing.
    As expected, Health expenditure as a percentage of GDP by country 2018
    Among OECD member countries, the United States had the highest percentage of gross domestic product spent on health care in 2018 - or latest year available. The U.S. spent nearly 17 percent of its GDP on health care services. Switzerland, France, and Germany followed the U.S. with distinctly smaller percentages. What makes the difference compared to other developed countries is the significantly higher private spending in the United States, while public health spending is on line with other developed countries.
    ----
    It occurred to me that it's not just the insulin, glucose monitors, etc. As an example. In the US - Estimating public and patient savings from basic research
    Anti-VEGF drugs, their injection, and OCT imaging are covered under Medicare Part B, which requires beneficiaries to copay 20% of the Medicare-approved amount in the absence of supplementary Medigap insurance.41, 42 On a fixed-injection schedule, patients on ranibizumab, bevacizumab, and aflibercept would have an average copay of $3693, $342, and $1568, respectively, per year for their anti-VEGF therapy from 2008 to 2015 (Table).
    Forget the "saving" thing (Estimating public and patient savings).It's not wrong, but it distracts the public from the crux of the issue. If left untreated, this disease ultimately leads to central blindness. It seems to me that US patients - needing injections 6/8 a year with an average copay of $3693, $342, and $1568, respectively, per year (for an unknown number of years, it's a chronic disease) and sometimes in both eyes, many cannot afford the drugs. Am I wrong?
    In the US the price tag is around $1950 for Eylea and $2020 for Lucentis per month). Here it's around 550 euros. Why? Price setting and price regulation in health care - Lessons for advancing Universal Health Coverage OECD.org

    So, the NHS pays. Cancer treatment (and AMD,diabetic maculopathy, vascular occlusions, etc) raises a major challenge to European healthcare systems. It's a huge burden, no one denies it.In Europe and everywhere. Anyway, in a public hospital, you pay nothing.There are private hospitals for those who are happy with their private insurance plans.But every citizen- with or without private insurance-is entitled to free hospital treatment.
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  3. #1403
    Mithradates's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    So, no relation to what you actually quoted? OK then.
    I quoted many things, which of my quotes are you referring to? (I dont expect you to answer this haha)

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I'll take this attempt as nothing more than a weak attempt to disparage Sanders' policies... Sanders is certainly right about one thing. You can not know the exact future cost of universal healthcare. You can only estimate it and there are some studies around that. It's like asking for an exact number for the cost of a particular war to be waged. Sanders' approach is also not one of adding a benefit to the country but making a right a reality. He's not proposing a space elevator.
    Theres no need for an exact number, its more like asking "how much would that cost? 10 dollars? 10 million dollars? or maybe 100 trillion dollars?" Are those studies from Bernie ot his stuff? Of yourse not.

    So, how much would Bernies utopia cost? I bet you could totally answer that, you just not gonna, right?

  4. #1404
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    It's not an utopia, in the richest country of the world.On average, other countries spend about half as much per person on health than the U.S. spends.Only 40% of Americans have enough saved to cover a $1,000 emergency expense.Many European countries follow the U.S. in healthcare spending, but the big difference is most of that cost in the U.S. relies on costly private health insurance plans - see previous post: Health expenditure as a percentage of GDP by country 2018

    Join the civilized world.



    .....


    So, the DNC change the rules in the middle of the game to accommodate Bloomberg,
    'Definition of a Rigged System,' Says Sanders Campaign.
    -----
    Democrats drop donor requirement for debates


    We are thrilled that voters could soon have the chance to see Mike Bloomberg on the debate stage, hear his vision for the country, and see why he is the strongest candidate to defeat Donald Trump and bring our country together,” said Bloomberg campaign manager Kevin Sheekey
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  5. #1405
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Universal Healthcare will definitely result in higher state expenditure, it will likely and probabiy should require higher taxation, but if the UK, Germany, and France can afford it, then so can America.

    We can quibble about whether it is the best policy to undertake, but it’s taking others for fools if you suggest the American taxpayer can’t afford it. America isn’t exactly a backwater country.
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  6. #1406
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    ... but it’s taking others for fools if you suggest the American taxpayer can’t afford it.
    Then I take it you agree with me...
    ...unless you have misunderstood me. I did express myself well,
    It seems to me that US patients - needing injections 6/8 a year with an average copay of $3693, $342, and $1568, respectively, per year (for an unknown number of years, it's a chronic disease) and sometimes in both eyes, many cannot afford the drugs.
    The entire process is set up so that a patient cannot skip their 20% insurance or copay when applicable.
    -----
    Trump Grows Concerned About Sanders as 2020 Opponent
    Donald Trump’s reelection campaign sent an email to millions of subscribers that came with a dire warning in the subject line: “Socialist Invasion: Bernie Sanders and AOC Barnstorm Iowa.”
    The note began: “Forget Joe Rogan. An endorsement from AOC is actually problematic.”

    Trump has long been nervous about Sanders, as he explained in a private conversation with Lev Parnas, a central character in the impeachment saga, and others in 2018, audio of which has been leaked.



    -----

    Bernie Sanders' real obstacle is not Trump. It's the Democratic establishment - The Guardian
    The fact that Sanders can succeed without the party machine enrages those who sacrificed their idealism to play the game
    Last edited by Ludicus; January 31, 2020 at 05:10 PM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  7. #1407

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithradates View Post
    I quoted many things, which of my quotes are you referring to? (I dont expect you to answer this haha)
    Theres no need for an exact number, its more like asking "how much would that cost? 10 dollars? 10 million dollars? or maybe 100 trillion dollars?" Are those studies from Bernie ot his stuff? Of yourse not.
    So, how much would Bernies utopia cost? I bet you could totally answer that, you just not gonna, right?
    I'm referring to the quote you posted in post#1394. You never managed to establish the relation to that.

    One analysis puts it at 32 trillion dollars. Another one puts it 24.7 trillion dollars. Most studies are not exhaustive as such a study would be so damn hard to do. You have to take into account a lot of things. Much of it is based on human decisions which makes it impossible to estimate. Can you quantify the effects of the savings by the households that will be created because of a Medicare for All plan? Not really.

    The real problem is that you're calling this an utopia. It's like public education. Is that utopic too?
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  8. #1408

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    The only person who could have implemented it would be Tulsi, since at least her program involves ending endless wars overseas, thus saving trillions. Since Bernie is a no-hope candidate, there is no need to look into his program, while the other ones are tepid neoliberals who wouldn't be able to do anything about healthcare without a major tax hike.

  9. #1409
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Trillions? The total cost of the war in Afghanistan since 2001 isnt even a trillion dollars. Tusli's plan wouldn't remotely save trillions of dollars.

  10. #1410

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    It definitely would be removing US bases from overseas and cutting down military budget to the necessary amount required to control US borders and territorial waters. Not to mention preventing more wars that Warren, Bloomberg or Biden would start.

  11. #1411
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    It definitely would be removing US bases from overseas and cutting down military budget to the necessary amount required to control US borders and territorial waters. Not to mention preventing more wars that Warren, Bloomberg or Biden would start.
    Uhhh no wrong again. US defense expenditure per year doesn't even reach a trillion dollars. That includes the cost of running bases around the world. You could cut the entire US defense budget and leave every war and base in the world. It still doesn't reach a trillion dollars. Let alone trillions enough to pay for Medicare for all.
    Last edited by Vanoi; February 02, 2020 at 09:47 AM.

  12. #1412
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Uhhh no wrong again. US defense expenditure per year doesn't even reach a trillion dollars. That includes the cost of running bases around the world. You could cut the entire US defense budget and leave every war and base in the world. It still doesn't reach a trillion dollars. Let alone trillions enough to pay for Medicare for all.
    They key question is how much additional money would Medicare For All cost once you've factored in all current healthcare expenditure.

  13. #1413
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    They key question is how much additional money would Medicare For All cost once you've factored in all current healthcare expenditure.
    Still trillions. Medicare for all is going to cost a lot. Only way to help offset the money needed for the program is actual reform of healthcare costs in the US.

  14. #1414

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Uhhh no wrong again. US defense expenditure per year doesn't even reach a trillion dollars. That includes the cost of running bases around the world. You could cut the entire US defense budget and leave every war and base in the world. It still doesn't reach a trillion dollars. Let alone trillions enough to pay for Medicare for all.
    And do you have a source of that estimation?
    Iraq war alone did cost more then a trillion alone, not counting indirect and delayed costs, which also are stolen from taxpayers pocket. Heck, if it wasn't for "exportations of democracy" in the Middle East, Americans could have had a functional healthcare system AND invest so much more into fields that actually help, like scientific research and space exploration.

  15. #1415
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    It should not be the case that significantly more is spent in the US (as a proportion of GDP) on healthcare than in countries which have both universal coverage for all citizens and higher life expediencies.

  16. #1416
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    And do you have a source of that estimation?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mili...est_for_FY2018

    The entire US defense budget is 698 billion dollars. That covers all costs from running bases, current on-going operations and any money being spent on anything military as my source indicates.



    Iraq war alone did cost more then a trillion alone, not counting indirect and delayed costs, which also are stolen from taxpayers pocket. Heck, if it wasn't for "exportations of democracy" in the Middle East, Americans could have had a functional healthcare system AND invest so much more into fields that actually help, like scientific research and space exploration.
    The Iraq War did cost a lot of money. Keyword being did. You can't save trillions that have already been spent. You can only save the money it would cost annually to be there.

  17. #1417

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    The Iraq War did cost a lot of money. Keyword being did. You can't save trillions that have already been spent. You can only save the money it would cost annually to be there.
    The Iraq War was also hidden from the budget, unlike, say, World War II.
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  18. #1418

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mili...est_for_FY2018

    The entire US defense budget is 698 billion dollars. That covers all costs from running bases, current on-going operations and any money being spent on anything military as my source indicates.
    Yeah, that's not counting money spent on wars, etc. So basically it is only a fraction of what US is spending.

    The Iraq War did cost a lot of money. Keyword being did. You can't save trillions that have already been spent. You can only save the money it would cost annually to be there.
    So steps need to be taken to prevent the next one, best path here to remove US presence from Middle East. Problems for Israelis and Saudis shouldn't concern American taxpayers. Furthermore, steps need to be taken to prevent military-industrial complex from having any political power like it does now.

  19. #1419
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Yeah, that's not counting money spent on wars, etc. So basically it is only a fraction of what US is spending.
    Nope.

    On September 28, 2018, Trump signed the Department of Defense appropriations bill. The approved 2019 Department of Defense discretionary budget is $686.1 billion.[31] It has also been described as "$617 billion for the base budget and another $69 billion for war funding."[32]
    That was in the first part of the source. Like the second or third paragraph. But hey don't read my source. It only makes you look dumb.

    So steps need to be taken to prevent the next one, best path here to remove US presence from Middle East. Problems for Israelis and Saudis shouldn't concern American taxpayers. Furthermore, steps need to be taken to prevent military-industrial complex from having any political power like it does now.
    So you agree Tulsi's plan wouldn't work?
    Last edited by Vanoi; February 02, 2020 at 02:09 PM.

  20. #1420

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...nders-n1128476

    Rumors John Kerry is going to join the race to ignite the civil war in the Democrat party. The Democrat centrists don’t want to get Corbyned by Bernie Sanders

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