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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #21
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Because he wants to incrementally end capitalism in the long run.
    Source? Because that's not what I'm seeing.

    Samuel Goldman, assistant professor of political science at George Washington University, states that Sanders' platform is not socialist and is better described as "welfarism" reminiscent of the 1950s that aims to regulate rather than to replace capitalism. Goldman notes that Sanders does not advocate public ownership of the means of production nor does he seek to abolish the profit system, both of which Goldman considers to be defining characteristics of socialism.[10]

    Lane Kenworthy, professor of sociology at the University of California at San Diego, has stated that Sanders is a social democrat and not a democratic socialist, and that the two ideologies are fundamentally different from each other. Kenworthy points out that social democracy does not aim to abolish capitalism, and argues that Sanders' use of the term "socialism" when he actually advocates "social democracy" is causing more confusion than it is adding value, and might unnecessarily have a negative impact on his presidential campaign. Mike Konczal, an economic policy expert at the Roosevelt Institute, also characterizes Sanders' positions as "social democracy" rather than "socialist", noting that social democracy means support for a mixed economy combining private enterprise with government spending, social insurance programs, Keynesian macroeconomic policies, and democratic participation in government and the workplace—all of which are a part of Sanders' platform.[11]

    Andrei Markovits, professor of political science at the University of Michigan, defines democratic socialism as "an attempt to create a property-free, socialist society" and something that does not exist in Denmark or anywhere else in the world, and argues that Sanders' explanation of the term is inaccurate.[12]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...Bernie_Sanders
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  2. #22
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    How is Bernie 'as far left as it goes economically'?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Because he wants to incrementally end capitalism in the long run.
    That ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Source? Because that's not what I'm seeing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...Bernie_Sanders
    He's the patron saint of Unions and his rhetoric (huge taxes for the rich, "too big too fail = too big to exist"), regulations for everything in the economy and more, career and voting in the past 30 years as well as his own words that he's a democratic socialist and not a social democrat as those fellows say about him make me believe that. He also supported the Sandinistas and other communists or far-leftwing states for the past 40 years.
    Yes, I believe Sanders would like to end capitalism. I can't be sure he declared it directly (which frankly he may had in the past) but he fits the bill.
    Sanders is too far left.
    Last edited by alhoon; April 26, 2019 at 08:14 PM.
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  3. #23
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Those reasons seem pretty vague but none of those things make him far left economically as you claimed, the mention of his supposed support for communist regimes is irrelevant as we're talking economics. There is an issue with the terminology as Andrei mentioned in the quote I posted because even though Bernie calls himself a democratic socialist his views seem closer to a social democrat, hence why he frequently praises Scandinavia rather than Cuba or Venezuela.

  4. #24
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    I would respectfully disagree. His rhetoric and plans put him in the far left economically. I don't think there's any politician with significant base more to the left of Sanders in USA when it comes to the economy. And unlike others that have recently started, his opinions seem consistent for the past 30 years. He is democratic because he doesn't try to force his opinions on others but is willing to compromise to an extend. His actual, core positions though are the leftmost you can find in the whole spectrum presented by politicians with any reasonable chance to get in a position of power.
    Sanders is the most pro-Union mainstream politician, wants worker-owned companies and nationalization, has said things like "nobody should earn more than 1M$" and suggested that he would be open on a 90% tax on the super-rich etc etc (a huge list of things he has said).
    He is far left, but he realizes the majority don't want that so he is willing to take it a step at a time. I.e. he's far left, not tyrannical.

    All in all, I can't find a single centrist or right-wing thing he ever proposed or supported. Everything he has suggested economy-wise is left and I can't find any other significant USA politician more to the left economically or as consistent in being left-only. As such, he actually defines the "left border" of the spectrum. He's represents the left margin that people compare to.
    That makes him far left.
    Last edited by alhoon; April 27, 2019 at 04:34 AM.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    I think most people here agree on Biden, but what about his possible running mate? Someone young and (a little) left leaning would be fitting imo.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Morifea View Post
    I think most people here agree on Biden, but what about his possible running mate? Someone young and (a little) left leaning would be fitting imo.
    While Biden is moderate, personally I don't agree that a 76 years old (that would be 78 when becoming POTUS) is a good choice. Biden's and Sander's time has passed.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    As I said above, problem with Sanders is well, him being a socialist. On the other hand, "moderate" Democrats are basically neocons who pretend to like gay people, while leading same policy as establishment GOP would (endless illegal wars in Middle East, hostility towards other countries like Iran and Russia, and acting as muscle/piggy bank for states like Israel and Saudi Arabia). So if your platform is being a pro-gay version of Bush Dubya, you need to win by image and posture, and this is where Biden is a as useful to Democrats as a kick in the balls: elections are won by optics, and Biden is a terrible pick in that regard. His creepy pervy uncle image will bite him in the ass regardless of whether allegations against him are true or not.

  8. #28

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by tgoodenow View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here. But what's your thoughts on tsarnaev voting?
    I mean sometimes the facepalming is best conveyed via gif. And there are some good WTF gifs out there for when these candidates do something so desperately stupid to try to get votes ahead of 20 other candidates. Hence a gif party every friday.
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  9. #29

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Aaaand Internet is already roasting Creepy Joe:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I honestly can't wait for all the memes mocking Biden and his supporters. This is building up to just as be as fun as Shillary Roast (aka 2016 presidential election).

  10. #30

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    I'm personally looking forward to the bloodbath.

    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  11. #31
    Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    This is probably the first election where I'm pretty much undecided, to be honest. A Biden victory would put a stop to Trumpism and liberate the GOP from its grasp, which would be great. I just don't know about his support for abortion, though, not to mention his anti-gun and anti-religious liberty stances. If it weren't for these three things, I'd probably be firmly in Biden's camp. But as things stand, if Trump goes down, guns, babies and Christian grandmas go down. It's a Sophie's choice.

  12. #32
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    In what way is Biden anti-religious? Sure he’s not a secularist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    For one, he'd almost certainly work to force religious organizations, businesses, parents and churches to go against their conscience and cater to abortionists and LGBT people.

  14. #34
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Is refusing service to someone because they are gay a religious right? Sure it’s just not a teeny tiny bit more to do with homophobia?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    In most cases it's not even about refusing to do business with gay people. These businesses typically don't have a problem with LGBT customers, they just don't want to endorse or participate in certain events that go against their beliefs, like a gay wedding, just as an artist could refuse to paint Hitler or what have you. This is their right under freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

  16. #36
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Pete Buttigieg is creating a split-screen moment for gay Republicans: The rising 2020 presidential contender speaks passionately about the military, God and efficient government. Some gay conservatives have spoken positively about Buttigieg — a moderate-sounding Midwesterner who married his husband last year — being a leap forward for gay Americans and politicians.
    But the South Bend, Ind., mayor’s public squabbles with Vice President Mike Pence are pushing some gay Republicans to fire back at Buttigieg to defend a leader of their party. The dust-up is riling up parts of the right and serving as a high-profile test of how the broader electorate might handle the nation's first prominent gay presidential candidate.
    “What’s intriguing about this particular candidate is that he’s running on really, you could say, the ‘gay conservative platform,’” said Richard Tafel, who helped launch the Log Cabin Republicans and authored “Party Crasher,” a book about being a gay conservative activist. “He’s talking about his military service. He’s talking about his faith. And he keeps saying we should make a moral argument. So on those things that also makes him somewhat attractive to gay conservatives.”
    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...s-2020-1291201

    I am also interested in this guy, but if he thinks we can win nationally by focusing on anything other that governing as President, then he like the boat load of Democratic party activists are missing what people outside the party will do to vote. Focus on religion, sexual orientation, marital status or what ever and risk losing support as well as gaining potential support. All such support is iffy when the job interview as about getting a job done and done well.

  17. #37

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    What about Mayor Pete? He seems pretty interesting politics-wise, although I think the greatest hindrance for him will be his awful last name (what is it with Maltese and their names?). Which, aside from looking terminally silly on paper and being awkward to pronounce, will inspire a million lame jokes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    In most cases it's not even about refusing to do business with gay people. These businesses typically don't have a problem with LGBT customers, they just don't want to endorse or participate in certain events that go against their beliefs, like a gay wedding, just as an artist could refuse to paint Hitler or what have you. This is their right under freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
    Word.

    Also, can we have a poll, or is it still too early for that?
    Last edited by athanaric; April 27, 2019 at 06:07 PM. Reason: dammit, got ninja'd by Norse Thing

  18. #38
    Derpy Hooves's Avatar Bombs for Muffins
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    How is Bernie 'as far left as it goes economically'?
    In terms of the American political perspective?
    He wants to give complete control over healthcare to the government. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Europe, they at least let you go for private healthcare. He doesn't want a private option.
    And which countries has he praised?
    Soviet Union
    Chavez/Maduro's Venezuela
    Nicaragua
    Castro's Cuba'


    Problem with Pete is a similar problem to Harris, Gillibrand, Warren and Booker: pandering. Anytime Sanders comes out with a position, there is a good chance the previously mentioned will support one form of it. Biden can't really do that given that he is running to continue Obama's legacy, not push Sanders' platform
    Last edited by Derpy Hooves; April 27, 2019 at 06:21 PM.



  19. #39
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post

    Also, can we have a poll, or is it still too early for that?
    Also a list of the candidates on the OP would be useful esp for newcomers to the thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    In most cases it's not even about refusing to do business with gay people. These businesses typically don't have a problem with LGBT customers, they just don't want to endorse or participate in certain events that go against their beliefs, like a gay wedding, just as an artist could refuse to paint Hitler or what have you. This is their right under freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
    Ah ok that sounds fine. Free speech is free speech.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Political violence wasn't started or popularized by Nazis, nor is there any association between the two. The fact that Antifa violently respond to far-right movements is a sign of a healthy and responsible polity, not authoritarian groupthink. Indeed, political violence is often the most effective and most responsible method to prevent normalization of abhorrent ideas.

  20. #40
    NorseThing's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpy Hooves View Post
    In terms of the American political perspective?
    He wants to give complete control over healthcare to the government. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Europe, they at least let you go for private healthcare. He doesn't want a private option.
    And which countries has he praised?
    Soviet Union
    Chavez/Maduro's Venezuela
    Nicaragua
    Castro's Cuba'


    Problem with Pete is a similar problem to Harris, Gillibrand, Warren and Booker: pandering. Anytime Sanders comes out with a position, there is a good chance the previously mentioned will support one form of it. Biden can't really do that given that he is running to continue Obama's legacy, not push Sanders' platform
    I am a bit sympathetic to Bernie. I do think his version of socialism is more on the lines of Euro or perhaps more Scandinavian than the leftist garbage he is being accused of. He likes to make money (book royalties) and I think he can appreciate a place for competition. Whether he is a suitable candidate to take the White House, I have my doubts. Too tied to the last election cycle. The Democratic party needs to put a great deal behind them and peerhaps that means to curb the 'Bern' enthusiasm. Besides, I am not too impressed with his record within the US Senate. Not too clear on his contributions on the committee work though so he may have some things going for him there that I am not aware of. I guess if I were a Democratic Party member, I would want him to stay put as a US Senator. Leave the Presidential race to new blood.

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