USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

[Lord Thesaurian]

*Yawns*
You cited government officials that directly benefit from public believing in what they said and, as usual, with 0 hard evidence for their claims. Its like saying that tobacco is good for you, because tobacco company PR team said so.

The public servants working for US intelligence agencies make about as much money as they could in the private sector working most corporate desk jobs. They gather and present evidence for a living, which means on any given day they consult at least n+1 more sources than I’ve ever seen from you on this forum. But please, don’t let reality stop you from sharing your singular yet boundless wisdom.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Heathen Hammer]

The public servants working for US intelligence agencies make about as much money as they could in the private sector working most corporate desk jobs. They gather and present evidence for a living, which means on any given day they consult at least n+1 more sources than I’ve ever seen from you on this forum. But please, don’t let reality stop you from sharing your singular yet boundless wisdom.

Yet, your only evidence is claims made by government officials that literally benefit from more government funding for "spreading democracy". You are making extraordinary claims and are not even bothering to provide any real evidence, aside from unsubstantiated claims from objectively biased groups. Its like saying that Nuremberg Laws are good because NSDAP official said so.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Yet, your only evidence is claims made by government officials that literally benefit from more government funding for "spreading democracy". You are making extraordinary claims and are not even bothering to provide any real evidence, aside from unsubstantiated claims from objectively biased groups. Its like saying that Nuremberg Laws are good because NSDAP official said so.

I have done no such thing. As usual, you hurl conspiratorial accusations while presenting zero evidence or sources of your own.

[Morifea]

You don't know how direct democracy works? Referendums and such. Definitely prevents elected officials from going rogue and abandoning their electorate once they are in the office.
Also taxation IS, in fact, theft, whether you like it or not.

The normal Thief doesn`t make sure that you`ll get Infastructure, Schools, Healthcare (at least in civilized countries) for the money he just robbed from you.

I`m really keen to see, how the populos votes about my beloved "Progressionsvorbehalt" or how to make sure that hidden assets are taxed correctly... or god forbid, how to pursue tax-criminals.

In res high taxes: Doesn`t it seem strange, that the "Good ol times" Trump, his followers or most GOP`s (I refrain from calling them Republicans, they don`t care for the Republic anymore) are glorifying were those times with the highest taxes in the History of the USA?

[caratacus]

Joe Biden resorting to calling a senior Iowa farmer and Democrat supporter, a liar and fat shamming him, when the subject of his son's role in Ukraine is brought up. I think this shows the true worth of many of those who hold positions of high office. The way the audience applauded the abuse and condescending tone he uses, many smiling shows the mentality of those who vote for them. Turnips every one of them!

[Heathen Hammer]

I have done no such thing. As usual, you hurl conspiratorial accusations while presenting zero evidence or sources of your own.

You were the one claiming that US is somehow threatened by other countries, and your only source is government official from a branch that would be funded if public would believe him.

The normal Thief doesn`t make sure that you`ll get Infastructure, Schools, Healthcare (at least in civilized countries) for the money he just robbed from you.

Except that instead those money are spent by trillions on endless wars in Middle East and handouts to useless parasitical "allies" like Israel or Saudi Arabia.

I`m really keen to see, how the populos votes about my beloved "Progressionsvorbehalt" or how to make sure that hidden assets are taxed correctly... or god forbid, how to pursue tax-criminals.

In res high taxes: Doesn`t it seem strange, that the "Good ol times" Trump, his followers or most GOP`s (I refrain from calling them Republicans, they don`t care for the Republic anymore) are glorifying were those times with the highest taxes in the History of the USA?

Which "good times" did Trump glorify?

[Lord Thesaurian]

You were the one claiming that US is somehow threatened by other countries, and your only source is government official from a branch that would be funded if public would believe him.

The public servants working for US intelligence agencies make about as much money as they could in the private sector working most corporate desk jobs. They gather and present evidence for a living, which means on any given day they consult at least n+1 more sources than I’ve ever seen from you on this forum. But please, don’t let reality stop you from sharing your singular yet boundless wisdom.

[Heathen Hammer]

The public servants working for US intelligence agencies make about as much money as they could in the private sector working most corporate desk jobs. They gather and present evidence for a living, which means on any given day they consult at least n+1 more sources than I’ve ever seen from you on this forum. But please, don’t let reality stop you from sharing your singular yet boundless wisdom.

Yet, your only evidence is claims made by government officials that literally benefit from more government funding for "spreading democracy". You are making extraordinary claims and are not even bothering to provide any real evidence, aside from unsubstantiated claims from objectively biased groups. Its like saying that Nuremberg Laws are good because NSDAP official said so.

See, I can play that game too. You are still trying to convince everyone that US is threatened by foreign boogeymen by citing from same source that repeatedly lied to the public for purpose of justifying wars and wasting taxpayer money on military-industrial complex.

[Lord Thesaurian]

See, I can play that game too. You are still trying to convince everyone that US is threatened by foreign boogeymen by citing from same source that repeatedly lied to the public for purpose of justifying wars and wasting taxpayer money on military-industrial complex.

The only one playing games here is you. Projecting your own lies and refusal to provide a shred of evidence onto others doesn’t affect anyone’s credibility but your own. Ranting about parasites and Nazis doesn’t help either.

[Ludicus]

he way the audience applauded the abuse and condescending tone he uses, many smiling shows the mentality of those who vote for them

Come on, presumably the same kind of voters who support Trump.It can't be worse, that's impossible.
As someone aspiring to be the president, Biden loses his temper very quickly. "You are a damn liar"..." Let's take an IQ test"..."You're too old to vote for me"
Really.

[Ferdiad]

Biden is riding on his VP status, if he was running as he did before as just a senator he'd just be in the single digits and his constant gaffes would sink his campaign.

[Ludicus]

. Ending the Monroe Doctrine that has been fundamental to US security for two centuries.

Sorry, Legio, the prescription of the Monroe doctrine for expansion was interpreted as a defensive reflexe against the European colonialism, but it turned out to be the exact opposite. Monroe doctrine has been fundamental for the US imperialist expansion, not for the US security. In Asia the US expansionist policy conducted what Frank Ninkovich has described as "hitchhiking imperialism" following the British patterns. To "open" Japan to American influence the US/Perry used a gunboat policy.To get access to China,the abusive and neocolonialist Open Door Policy was created during the Age of Imperialism, at the end of the Spanish American War.
The war with Spain had brought American troops to the Philippines; in China and other parts of Asia, the US commercial penetration was accompanied by the frequent use of expeditionary forces. Between 1870 and 1900 American missionaries flooded China to promote the "evangelization of the World" with the US government support.American interest in Asia also led a insular empire in the Pacific with Hawaii at its core, and missionary turned planters. Let's not forget the military inventions in the Caribbean basin ( I'm counting 7 countries at least), the US created an empire in Cuba. After the defeat of Spain Cuba was placed under American military government. There were plans in the 1820s for the definitive annexation of Cuba, but the Teller Amendment to the declaration of war against Spain, inspired by a strong sense of racism, prohibited the incorporation of Cuba.
I could go on, but it's too late. To conclude, as William Appleman Williams put it in 1980, "Empire become so intrinsically our American way of life that we rationalized and suppressed the nature of our means in the euphoria of our enjoyments of the ends"

All in the name of the Monroe Doctrine.
---
Sanders rightly says,

The US was wrong to try to invade Cuba; the US was wrong trying to support people to overthrow the Nicaraguan government; the US was wrong trying to overthrow, in 1954, the democratically elected government of Guatemala. Throughout the history of our relationship with Latin America we've operated under the so-called Monroe Doctrine, and that said the US had the right do anything that they wanted to do in Latin America. So I actually went to Nicaragua and I very shortly opposed the Reagan administration's efforts to overthrow that government. And I strongly opposed Henry Kissinger and the overthrow of the government of Salvador Allende in Chile. I think the US should be working with governments around the world, not get involved in regime change. And all of these actions in Latin America brought forth a lot of very strong anti-American sentiments.

[Prodromos]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/06/bide...is-likely.html

New interview with Biden. He seems to agree with a lot of Trump's economic policy (particularly on China), but they differ sharply on foreign policy.

I'm old enough to remember when Democrats were the ones coddling America's enemies. It's embarrassing that a Democrat has a better grasp of foreign policy than the Republican president.

Joe Biden: I know Putin. I’ve had private time with Putin. I’ve looked in his eyes, as they say. This is a guy who had one overarching desire: to break up NATO and to have America pull away from Europe, the Euro Atlantic alliance. Because that’s the one thing he cannot penetrate if it’s strong.

But if you have 28 nations all going their own way, he becomes significantly more powerful. And what happens when you live next door to the bear and you don’t have anybody protecting you and doesn’t have that shotgun out to make sure the bear doesn’t get you? Then, in fact, you begin to make accommodations.

John Harwood: And why do you think President Trump wants to help him?

Joe Biden: I don’t think the president of the United States today has any notion of geopolitical concerns. I remember he said, seriously, a couple of months into his administration, “You know this job’s harder than running a real estate empire.” He knows nothing about foreign policy. He knows nothing about nuclear deterrent. He knows nothing. I actually, privately, encouraged a number of generals, senior state department people, foreign policy experts to stay in the administration. Don’t leave. Look what’s happened.

John Harwood: But is your judgment, then, that it’s ignorance, that he doesn’t understand geopolitics, as opposed to he is purposely helping Russia and Putin because he’s compromised in some way?

Joe Biden: All I know is the results are the same. I can’t read his mind. He has done things that seem to me to be completely contrary to reality. When he stands before in the whole world at a G-20 meeting and says that I believe Vladimir Putin did not interfere in our elections and these 18 intelligence agencies that work for us, in fact, do. They think he did, but I think they’re wrong. What is that about?

John Harwood: That’s the question.

Joe Biden: I don’t know. But the result is the same. It has drastically weakened our standing around the world. Poll came out not long ago, Gallup and Pew showing that we ranked just below China in respect and just above Russia. What’s going on? Look, when we are not leading, we’ve led the world by the example, not just of our power, but the power of our example.

There’s three things I’ve learned. I’ve learned Vladimir Putin doesn’t want me to be president. That’s why he’s spending a lot of money on these bots trying to tell any lies about me. I’ve learned that Kim Jong Un thinks I am a rabid dog, should be beaten to death with a stick, and he gets a love letter from Trump. And I learned that Donald Trump doesn’t want me to be the nominee.

This president is the most unusual politician I’ve ever worked with. And he doesn’t seem to have any sense of who we are. He’s ripping the soul out of this country. He really is. I sometimes sit back and wonder, “Whoa, I don’t know whether ...” - well, I shouldn’t speculate because I don’t know, to be honest.

[Lord Thesaurian]

@Ludicus
The US cannot tolerate hostile powers within striking distance of her territory if she intends to safeguard her citizenry from eminent danger. That is the purpose of the Monroe Doctrine then, now, and in the future. Ending the Monroe Doctrine doesn’t mean ceding the initiative to the countries of Latin and South America. It means ceding the initiative to America’s enemies. Just as the US was willing to risk WW3 to get Soviet nukes out of Cuba, the US cannot tolerate foreign meddling in the New World today either. US leaders became complacent in the decades after the Cold War, and are already suffering the setbacks resulting from that mistake:

Expansion of Russian and Chinese Hegemony in Latin America

The United States is Losing Latin America to China Overall, China’s economic expansion into Latin America has been extremely favorable for Beijing. Investments in infrastructure either enable greater economic activity that favor Chinese interests, and/or thrust Latin American countries into debt traps, effectively turning them into economic vassals. Either way, China benefits. Over the long term though, this is a dangerous proposition: local populations in these countries could grow disgruntled at what they see as a new imperialism originating from the East. This is not lost upon Chinese policymakers. With keen foresight, they supplement their economic statecraft with diplomatic initiatives and unconventional security measures. These, too, are visible in Latin America. CHINA’S MILITARY and security activities in Latin America are understandably subtler than their economic initiatives—anything too bold, like stationing military units in the region, would set off alarm bells in Washington and other capitals. Rather, Beijing has focused on importing something into Latin America that is far less provocative but is no less worrisome: its internal security model. Latin American rulers holding this sort of sway over their respective domestic populations suits Beijing’s purposes quite well, as it makes it easier for governments to crush political dissent—particularly any that is aimed towards Chinese economic interests. If that isn’t enough, and if certain facilities require more protection than the usual, China may decide to up the ante by stationing its own forces within these countries. China’s own 2015 defense strategy white paper notes that, “in response to the new requirement coming from the country’s growing strategic interests, the armed forces will actively participate in both regional and international security cooperation and effectively secure China’s overseas interests.” https://nationalinterest.org/feature...ca-china-73906 In addition to supporting the buildup of Venezuela’s military, Russia also participated in combined air maneuvers in October 2018 and sent two of its own Tu-160 “White Swan” strategic bombers to Caracas in December 2018. While it is not uncommon for countries to conduct military exercises together, uncertainty regarding the weapon capabilities of the bombers caused serious security concerns in the U.S. and signaled Russia’s ability to inflict damage on American soil. In January 2019, while the majority of the world acknowledged the illegitimacy of Maduro’s presidency and pledged its support to Juan Guaido as interim president, Moscow represented one of only eight governments that continued to support the Maduro regime. Kremlin-linked military contractors from the Wagner group deployed to Venezuela in order to support Maduro—a clear representation of how Russia’s influence in Venezuela poses a threat to American interests in the Latin American region. Within the past weeks, financial issues have prompted Rostec, a Russian state defense contractor, to withdraw staff charged with training Venezuelan soldiers and advising arms deals. Although interactions between Russia and Cuba declined following the collapse of the Soviet Union, leadership from both countries have engaged more frequently within the last decade. Signaling of military relations commenced in November 2008 when Russian warships visited Havana for the first time since the end of the Cold War. By 2012, Cuba’s reliance on Russia for arms and military research had grown, resulting in a contract that guaranteed Russia’s provision of research and technical support for Tu-204-100E/Tu-204CE planes. In May 2012, discussions began concerning the delivery of modernized Tu-204CM passenger medium-haul aircraft, and then in June, Cuba purchased six An-158 aircraft. Three of the aircraft were to be delivered in 2012, and the rest were to be sent in 2013 on a financial lease. Current Cuban President Miguel Díaz-Canel participated in military discussions in October 2018, and returned from Russia with a contract of U.S.$260 million to improve various aspects of Cuba’s infrastructure. In addition, he secured a line of credit amounting to U.S.$50 million for the purchase of Russian military weapons and spare parts. In the same month, Colonel General Vladimir Shamanov announced that Russia intended to increase its military presence in Cuba with Havana’s permission. In November, Putin and Díaz-Canel further vowed to expandpolitical, economic, and military ties. The renewed commitment to strengthening relations seemed to occur in response to the U.S.’s consideration of withdrawing from the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces (INF) treaty. Moscow’s desire to better military relations with Cuba at a time of deteriorating U.S. relations casts a shadow over the future of regional dynamics in the Western Hemisphere. Between 2012 and 2015, Moscow established a military training center located in the Nicaraguan Army mechanized infantry brigade and began construction for a regional counter-drug law enforcement training center. Both centers are tasked with training Nicaraguan soldiers, but the latter also intends to provide specialized trainingto law enforcement in participating neighboring countries. Further, in 2014, Putin negotiated for the use of Nicaragua’s military bases, ports, and airports. Overall, Russia’s presence in Nicaragua has mainly focused on increasing cooperation. Russia stands to benefit much more from this partnership should its objectives involve establishing greater influence in Central America and promoting anti-Western rhetoric and values. Following the Cold War, Russia withdrew from its near abroad and the Western Hemisphere in order to focus on instituting more fruitful domestic policies. However, within the last two decades, Russia has re-emerged in Latin America, specifically operating in unstable, anti-American countries associated with communist or socialist ideals. The increase in Russian military activity in Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela has not drawn significant attention (except in the recent case of Venezuela) despite the many threats posed by its presence and influence. These relationships should warrant greater concern, especially due to Moscow’s past of utilizing unconventional warfare tactics that both defy international norms and directly challenge U.S. interests. https://www.fpri.org/article/2019/06...latin-america/

It is easy to see the upside to Sanders’ tankie foreign policy in a vacuum where US power is akin to a law of nature. I too wish we could live in a multipolar world where everyone just sort of gets along somehow. In reality, Sanders’ doctrine of self-flagellation may win good karma to balance America’s past mis-steps and excesses, but it will not serve the national interests of the US, which is the basic duty of any POTUS. More importantly for the people Latin America, it means throwing off the devil they know in exchange for new masters who don’t have to worry about appearances.

The only truly multipolar world that is possible under the modern geopolitical reality is one which is enforced by an unrivaled global power. Right now, the only power remotely interested in maintaining anything like a multipolar world order is the US, and it is that white hat reputation that has granted America immense soft power in the first place. Does the US need to do a better job living up to the ideals we claim to profess? Absolutely. Is that possible in a world where America is weak, either deliberately or otherwise? Absolutely not.

[caratacus]

Come on, presumably the same kind of voters who support Trump.It can't be worse, that's impossible.
As someone aspiring to be the president, Biden loses his temper very quickly. "You are a damn liar"..." Let's take an IQ test"..."You're too old to vote for me"
Really.

No he didn't loose his temper at all. He is a smug conceited member of the political establishment who bullied this retired farmer because he dared to probe a touchy subject. He didn't respect the guy calling him "Fat" instead of Sir and choose to lambaste him and say he is uninformed rather than clarify the facts. The reaction of the Democratic voters in that audience says it all though, why a guy like that is where he is. Look at the children's faces in the background, they react with the amazement and shock in their faces, that is all too absent in the faces of their parents. At least Trump supporters voted in the last election because they wanted genuine change in Washington politics. Whether they got it though is another matter.

[Heathen Hammer]

The only one playing games here is you. Projecting your own lies and refusal to provide a shred of evidence onto others doesn’t affect anyone’s credibility but your own. Ranting about parasites and Nazis doesn’t help either.

You are the one who made a claim with 0 objective evidence (some CIA parasite spook ranting about how everyone is out to get him doesn't count as such) and are now projecting it on those that called you out via ad hominem attacks. Sad!

[Ludicus]

@Ludicus
The US cannot tolerate hostile powers within striking distance of her territory if she intends to safeguard her citizenry from eminent danger. That is the purpose of the Monroe Doctrine then, now, and in the future.

Well, I know what you mean. During the Cuban missile crisis, Kennedy did the right thing, Soviet Union and the US came dangerously close to war. Kennedy, 1962,

Last month I said we weren’t going to allow Soviet missiles and nuclear weapons in Cuba. Last month I should have said we don’t care. But when we said we’re not going to, and they the Soviets go ahead and do it, and then we do nothing, then I think our risks increase

But today, the Monroe doctrine provides the perfect excuse to annex, invade, and create client states around the world, in the opposite side of the world. And to put it frankly, the modern dictator needs only to become a client-state to Russia, China or the US. Saudi Arabia isn't a model of democracy, and it's not the only one.I know, "Real" politics.
----

The only truly multipolar world that is possible under the modern geopolitical reality is one which is enforced by an unrivaled global power.

This has happening since a long time ago. I have read Modelski and his Long Cycles Theory, Organski and the Power transition theory.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

According to George Modelski (1987, p. 40), the global system has witnessed five long cycles: 1494-1580; 1580-1688; 1688-1792; 1792-1914; and 1914-2030. Portugal dominated most of the 16th century (1516-1560), the United Provinces most of the 17th century (1609-1660), the United Kingdom (UK) most of the 18th century (1714-1763) as well as most of the 19th century (1815-1873) throughout two cycles in a row, and the United States (US) the era following the Second World War till the end of the 20th century (1945-2000).

Each cycle is about 60-90 years, and we know that in the year +- 2040, a great war might erupt which could expand globally. China is now the main challenger, and both cooperative and confrontational futures are possible. There is a hope, Modelski also emphasized what he called the "progressive process of learning" . For us - Europe- it's desirable a transition of power without global war- that means a great agreement between the two great powers and Europe, and the EU will have to support the US-China cooperation, not the confrontation. One thing is certain, from 2040 onwards, China and the US will become partners in international affairs.

Please read.
Long Cycles: A Bridge between Past and Futures Professor ...
(DOC) Global leadership: the ultimate role for the United ...

Sanders wants dialogue, a great entente, not confrontation.
Legio, my good friend, if you don't agree with him totally, vote for Bloomberg. The billionaire is 17 times richer than Trump. (j/k)
Sanders on foreign Policy-China, JCPOA, North Korea, Russia/Ukraine, Afghanistan, U.S.-Saudi relationship, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Venezuela, Africa,CPTPP, climate crisis, the UN- Bernie Sanders Answers Our Foreign Policy Questions

[Lord Thesaurian]

You are the one who made a claim with 0 objective evidence (some CIA parasite spook ranting about how everyone is out to get him doesn't count as such) and are now projecting it on those that called you out via ad hominem attacks. Sad!

The only one ranting about conspiracies and projecting false assertions onto others with no evidence is you.

Well, I know what you mean. During the Cuban missile crisis, Kennedy did the right thing, Soviet Union and the US came dangerously close to war. Kennedy, 1962,


But today, the Monroe doctrine provides the perfect excuse to annex, invade, and create client states around the world, in the opposite side of the world. And to put it frankly, the modern dictator needs only to become a client-state to Russia, China or the US. Saudi Arabia isn't a model of democracy, and it's not the only one.I know, "Real" politics.
----

This has happening since a long time ago. I have read Modelski and his Long Cycles Theory, Organski and the Power transition theory.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

According to George Modelski (1987, p. 40), the global system has witnessed five long cycles: 1494-1580; 1580-1688; 1688-1792; 1792-1914; and 1914-2030. Portugal dominated most of the 16th century (1516-1560), the United Provinces most of the 17th century (1609-1660), the United Kingdom (UK) most of the 18th century (1714-1763) as well as most of the 19th century (1815-1873) throughout two cycles in a row, and the United States (US) the era following the Second World War till the end of the 20th century (1945-2000).

Each cycle is about 60-90 years, and we know that in the year +- 2040, a great war might erupt which could expand globally. China is now the main challenger, and both cooperative and confrontational futures are possible. There is a hope, Modelski also emphasized what he called the "progressive process of learning" . For us - Europe- it's desirable a transition of power without global war- that means a great agreement between the two great powers and Europe, and the EU will have to support the US-China cooperation, not the confrontation. One thing is certain, from 2040 onwards, China and the US will become partners in international affairs.

Please read.
Long Cycles: A Bridge between Past and Futures Professor ...
(DOC) Global leadership: the ultimate role for the United ...

Sanders wants dialogue, a great entente, not confrontation.
Legio, my good friend, if you don't agree with him totally, vote for Bloomberg. The billionaire is 17 times richer than Trump. (j/k)
Sanders on foreign Policy-China, JCPOA, North Korea, Russia/Ukraine, Afghanistan, U.S.-Saudi relationship, Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Venezuela, Africa,CPTPP, climate crisis, the UN- Bernie Sanders Answers Our Foreign Policy Questions

Thank you for the good reads, my friend. As we often do, I’ll agree to disagree. Constructive dialogue between nations is great. US-China dialogue has acknowledged the dangers of a thucydides trap for example, and it’s positive to see both sides are at least generally aware of the risks. De-escalating the US’ Cold War model of regime change and dominance around the world can be a positive step all around if executed properly. I simply do not trust Sanders to do so while protecting American interests as POTUS, given his worldview and comments on foreign policy.

[Heathen Hammer]

The only one ranting about conspiracies and projecting false assertions onto others with no evidence is you.

> No, you!
Doesn't count as an argument. We are yet to see any evidence to your anti-American Sino-Russian conspiracy, as claims from anonymous "intelligence officials" aren't credible for above-mentioned reasons that you refused to address. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and we are yet to see you provide any.

[Lord Thesaurian]

> No, you!
Doesn't count as an argument. We are yet to see any evidence to your anti-American Sino-Russian conspiracy, as claims from anonymous "intelligence officials" aren't credible for above-mentioned reasons that you refused to address. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and we are yet to see you provide any.

More claims and assertions from you, same refusal to provide any evidence for them at all, let alone “credible” evidence.