View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

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  • Bernie Sanders.

    14 48.28%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 17.24%
  • Neither.

    10 34.48%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #1621
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I like Warren, I really do (especially after she tore Bloomberg to shreds in that debate), but it's clear to me what her strategy is here...
    I like her too, Warren is second choice for Bernie supporters. But she is slipping in polls, and now goes after Bloomberg. Last poll, Polls - Emerson College Polling

    The mega-billionaire spends about 7 million/day on his campaign.
    UltraViolet Calls On DNC to Keep Bloomberg Off Debate Unless the Billionaire Releases Former Employees From NDAs
    "We already have a sexual predator in the White House in Donald Trump"

    The group reiterated its call Thursday after Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) lambasted Bloomberg over the dozens of sexual harassment allegations against him and his company and for refusing to release the women from NDAs at Wednesday night's presidential debate. UltraViolet originally circulated a petition ahead of the debate regarding the issue
    Where have i heard this before?
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 21, 2020 at 11:38 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  2. #1622

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Are they asking for special rules now? Personally I loved Bloomberg getting roasted to high hell. Especially for that. You'd think they'd see the good part of that.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  3. #1623
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    Hum i think generation z is more conservative then people realize. While Millennial generation is indeed more progressive.
    Does gen Z vote yet? I think just the veeeery oldest of them are of an age to vote.
    But yes, thankfully they're more conservative than the Millenials.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post

    Dear god that "debate" was awful. These are the best the left can come up with? Democrats need to retake their party from the radicals.
    Democrats are not leftwing. Sanders and Warren are but they don't represent the whole democrat party.
    DIE: Diversity, Inclusion, Equality (Pun on SJWs, I am not far-right)
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  4. #1624
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Sanders and Warren are but they don't represent the whole democrat party.
    ... for now. But the future is bright. A significant part of Democratic voters under 30 are left,and 42% of those under 45.
    On a side note- its slightly off topic, but I can't resist,
    President Trump blasts 'Parasite' - Los Angeles ...
    "Did you see it? The winner is…a movie from South Korea!"

    In response to the president’s criticism, Neon, the distributor of “Parasite,” fired back on Twitter at the president’s apparent aversion to subtitled movies: “Understandable, he can’t read.”
    The Neanderthal is unfit to be President of the United States.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  5. #1625

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight of Heaven View Post
    I would guess it depends on lots of things. Such is the nature of this things when we take a broader look.
    The general ray vision of generation z, is mostly progressive on social things, or Libertarian if you will, but with a conservative view in a personal spectrum also more liberal, economically. So yeah its a new brand altogether i suppose.
    Let me put it this way. Red states like the one I got my education in can't be arsed to put a dependable public transportation network in their biggest city. And Louisville is a pretty god damn big city. And I can't medically drive. So I hauled ass out of Kentucky to an at least purple state where they see these things as at least good public investments. Ironically they also saw slightly more progressive things like medical networks and such as also good investments and my medical care got a lot cheaper AND a lot better at the same god damn time.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  6. #1626
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    In 2016, when this record started to catch up to him, Sanders said, “When I talk about democratic socialism, I’m not talking about Venezuela, I’m not talking about Cuba.” As he said on Wednesday night, he’s talking about places like Denmark or, as he’s said at other times, Sweden or Norway.

    But just as Cuba and the Soviet Union were never the workers’ paradises Sanders sometimes suggested, those European countries aren’t the socialist nirvanas he claims either. As my American Enterprise Institute colleague James Pethokoukis has noted, “the egalitarian Nordic nations have as many billionaires, relatively, as the U.S. and more concentrated wealth, at least as measured by the share of wealth controlled by the top 10 percent.” The Nordic countries are also free-traders and have many of the pro-business policies that Sanders despises here at home.

    Sanders, who favors single-payer health care, routinely says we should follow the example of Scandinavian and other countries. He recently tweeted a list of 27 nations with universal health care. But National Review’s Ramesh Ponnuru pointed out that not one of the countries listed has single-payer health care.

    It’s true that the Nordic countries used to be closer to what Sanders has in mind. But that was decades ago — back when Bernie was heaping praise on Communist countries. Those governments recognized that such policies were bad for the economy as a whole, and for the people too. Sure, some European countries have more-generous welfare states and more-progressive taxation than we do. Most also have much worse unemployment and economic growth. But all of that is grist for a different argument from the one Sanders offers. He has an impressive record of seeing only what he wants to see rather than what is — at home and abroad.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/...-wants-to-see/
    A New York Times review of Mr. Sanders’s mayoral papers — including hundreds of speeches, handwritten notes, letters, political pamphlets and domestic and foreign newspaper clippings from a period spanning nearly a decade — revealed that from his earliest days in office Mr. Sanders aimed to execute his own foreign policy, repudiating Mr. Reagan’s approach of aggressively backing anti-Communist governments and resistance forces, while going further than many Democrats in supporting socialist leaders.

    In Washington, many Democrats resisted aspects of Mr. Reagan’s foreign policy agenda, but they mostly shied away from questioning his opposition to Communism on ideological terms, fearing the political implications of seeming soft on the Soviet Union.

    In Burlington, Mr. Sanders held no similar concerns.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/17/u...ton-mayor.html
    Sanders has always been an ambitious, unapologetic ideologue, and that’s what his supporters love about him. I could agree to disagree and support his candidacy in light of several positive domestic policy proposals. However, his foreign policy record, writing letters, traveling around as the mayor of BF Nowhere while attempting to undermine the United States abroad, is intolerable. His proposals for the future of US foreign policy, vague as they are, are no less horrific.

    His attempts to obfuscate the narratives surrounding his beliefs and key policy proposal(s) (social safety net = “socialism,” M4A is “like Denmark and Norway,” despite the fact M4A is definitively more ambitious, nebulous, and lavish than any comparable foreign system, etc) would be a potentially crippling liability in the pre-Trump era. I’m honestly surprised the right wing has clung to the “communist” strawman when the truth offers plenty of ammunition, against which Sanders has no easy defense.

    Sanders and Bloomberg are, to my knowledge, the only two Dem candidates in the race whose strange aversion to American values, as well as affinity for foreign despotism, would be on par with Trump’s. I suppose I could be considered a single issue voter (national security), which leaves me with no good options this election in terms of likely nominees.

  7. #1627

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    His attempts to obfuscate the narratives surrounding his beliefs and key policy proposal(s) (social safety net = “socialism,” M4A is “like Denmark and Norway,” despite the fact M4A is definitively more ambitious, nebulous, and lavish than any comparable foreign system, etc) would be a potentially crippling liability in the pre-Trump era. I’m honestly surprised the right wing has clung to the “communist” strawman when the truth offers plenty of ammunition, against which Sanders has no easy defense.
    The communist strawman is easier to say in one sentence in the 'political shiv' style that lets them put it out in commercials and, should he win the nomination, future debates. They need punchlines. Not technical college debate team arguments.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  8. #1628
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    From the news,
    Former Goldman Sachs chief: It'd be 'harder to vote for Bernie ...
    Former Goldman Sachs chief executive Lloyd Blankfein said he may vote for President Trump over Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) if the progressive firebrand wins the party’s 2020 presidential nomination.
    He has been frequently hammered by Wall Street critics, including Sanders, for Goldman’s involvement in the subprime mortgage bond trade that helped fuel the 2007-8 financial crisis.

    "I welcome the hatred of the crooks who destroyed our economy,” Sanders shot back in a Friday tweet.
    Edit,
    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    His proposals for the future of US foreign policy, vague as they are, are no less horrific.
    I see nothing "horrific" or "anti-American" -here
    Responsible Foreign Policy - Bernie Sanders

    Details

    The U.S. must lead the world in improving international cooperation in the fight against climate change, militarism, authoritarianism, and global inequality. When we are in the White House, we will:

    • Implement a foreign policy which focuses on democracy, human rights, diplomacy and peace, and economic fairness.
    • Allow Congress to reassert its Constitutional role in warmaking, so that no president can wage unauthorized and unconstitutional interventions overseas.
    • Follow the American people, who do not want endless war. American troops have been in Afghanistan for nearly 18 years, the longest war in American history. Our troops have been in Iraq since 2003, and in Syria since 2015, and many other places. It is long past time for Congress to reassert its Constitutional authority over the use of force to responsibly end these interventions and bring our troops home.
    • End U.S. support for the Saudi-led intervention in Yemen, which has created the world’s worst humanitarian catastrophe.
    • Rejoin the Iran nuclear agreement and talk to Iran on a range of other issues.
    • Work with pro-democracy forces around the world to build societies that work for and protect all people. In the United States, Europe, and elsewhere, democracy is under threat by forces of intolerance, corruption, and authoritarianism.

    Explained in more detail,Bernie Sanders Answers Our Foreign Policy Questions

    ----
    Edit,
    I heard that Luther King is a model of an American patriot. MLK day is a federal holiday.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    MLK was socialist, Legio-Italica. King put forward a vision of a society that provides equality for people of all races and backgrounds.



    Martin Luther King fifty years on - Le Monde diplomatique
    The political manipulation of his memory has been considerable. To justify the story of a reconciled nation, King the radical had to be replaced with a patriot and founding father, an exceptional American only an exceptional country could create. Here, this version goes, is a black man who dreamed of racial equality and achieved it through his confidence in his countrymen. There is no mention of racism, race or segregation on the base of the King statue that President Barack Obama unveiled in Washington in 2011. Visitors to the National Mall are encouraged to remember the 1963 ‘I have a dream’ speech delivered during the March on Washington, and to admire a mission accomplished.
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 21, 2020 at 04:05 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  9. #1629
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    The communist strawman is easier to say in one sentence in the 'political shiv' style that lets them put it out in commercials and, should he win the nomination, future debates. They need punchlines. Not technical college debate team arguments.
    I agree in the sense that when Sanders is going around telling people Uncle Sam is going to pay their medical bills now and forever, a lot of people won’t care about the details. For the same reason, I don’t see broad, vague red scare tactics having much of an effect amongst people who are leaning Democratic. If anything, it makes communism/socialism look “cool” to the uninformed, who then associate those concepts as synonymous with “free” healthcare or the existence of social welfare programs.

    On the other hand, the National Review made a decent effort to criticize Sanders on the substance; right wing bias notwithstanding. It can easily be done, whether it has an electoral effect against Sanders or Trump and the party of Moscow Mitch, or not. I would guess that alot of undecided voters might take issue with Sanders using his political power to bolster foreign despots in defiance of US policy, or perhaps with his desire to unilaterally disarm the US in favor of writing candid letters and stumping for leftist groups around the world. The difference between criticizing Sanders on these issues, vs because he’s a communist, if nothing else, is that Sanders is not a communist.

  10. #1630
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I agree in the sense that when Sanders is going around telling people Uncle Sam is going to pay their medical bills now and forever,
    Don't you think it's strange that of the 25 wealthiest nations, the richest country in the world is the only one that doesn't provide universal healthcare?
    ----------------------------
    Let's go back to MLK, four days before assassination.
    His last speech.Full speech, Remaining Awake Through a Great Revolution - Martin Luther

    Key points, excerpts,

    I would like to use as a subject from which to preach this morning: "Remaining Awake Through a Great Revolution".

    ...First, we are challenged to develop a world perspective. No individual can live alone, no nation can live alone, and anyone who feels that he can live alone is sleeping through a revolution. The world in which we live is geographically one. The challenge that we face today is to make it one in terms of brotherhood.

    ...Through our scientific and technological genius, we have made of this world a neighborhood and yet we have not had the ethical commitment to make of it a brotherhood... John Donne caught it years ago and placed it in graphic terms: "No man is an island entire of itself.Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main." And he goes on toward the end to say, "Any man’s death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind; therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee."

    We must see this, believe this, and live by it if we are to remain awake through a great revolution.

    There is another thing closely related to racism that I would like to mention as another challenge. We are challenged to rid our nation and the world of poverty.

    Like a monstrous octopus, poverty spreads its nagging, prehensile tentacles into hamlets and villages all over our world. Two-thirds of the people of the world go to bed hungry tonight.

    They are ill-housed; they are ill-nourished; they are shabbily clad. I’ve seen it in Latin America; I’ve seen it in Africa; I’ve seen this poverty in Asia.
    But I say to you this morning, my friends, there were those depressing moments. How can one avoid being depressed when he sees with his own eyes evidences of millions of people going to bed hungry at night?

    How can one avoid being depressed when he sees with his own eyes God’s children sleeping on the sidewalks at night?

    In Bombay more than a million people sleep on the sidewalks every night. In Calcutta more than six hundred thousand sleep on the sidewalks every night. They have no beds to sleep in; they have no houses to go in.
    How can one avoid being depressed when he discovers that out of India’s population of more than five hundred million people, some four hundred and eighty million make an annual income of less than ninety dollars a year. And most of them have never seen a doctor or a dentist.
    As I noticed these things, something within me cried out, "Can we in America stand idly by and not be concerned?" And an answer came: "Oh no!" Because the destiny of the United States is tied up with the destiny of India and every other nation...

    And I was in Newark and Harlem just this week.... I said, "How much do you pay for this apartment?" She said, "a hundred and twenty-five dollars." I looked, and I thought, and said to myself, "It isn’t worth sixty dollars." Poor people are forced to pay more for less. Living in conditions day in and day out where the whole area is constantly drained without being replenished. It becomes a kind of domestic colony.

    And the tragedy is, so often these forty million people are invisible because America is so affluent, so rich. Because our expressways carry us from the ghetto, we don’t see the poor.

    ...Indeed, Dives went to hell because he sought to be a conscientious objector in the war against poverty.

    And this can happen to America, the richest nation in the world—and nothing’s wrong with that—this is America’s opportunity to help bridge the gulf between the haves and the have-nots. The question is whether America will do it.

    There is nothing new about poverty. What is new is that we now have the techniques and the resources to get rid of poverty. The real question is whether we have the will.

    President Kennedy said on one occasion, "Mankind must put an end to war or war will put an end to mankind." The world must hear this. I pray God that America will hear this before it is too late, because today we’re fighting a war.

    I am convinced that it is one of the most unjust wars that has ever been fought in the history of the world. Our involvement in the war in Vietnam has torn up the Geneva Accord.
    It has strengthened the military-industrial complex; it has strengthened the forces of reaction in our nation. It has put us against the self-determination of a vast majority of the Vietnamese people, and put us in the position of protecting a corrupt regime that is stacked against the poor.

    This day we are spending five hundred thousand dollars to kill every Vietcong soldier.
    Every time we kill one we spend about five hundred thousand dollars while we spend only fifty-three dollars a year for every person characterized as poverty-stricken in the so-called poverty program, which is not even a good skirmish against poverty.

    There is not a single major ally of the United States of America that would dare send a troop to Vietnam, and so the only friends that we have now are a few client-nations like Taiwan, Thailand, South Korea, and a few others.

    It is no longer a choice, my friends, between violence and nonviolence. It is either nonviolence or nonexistence.

    And the alternative to disarmament, the alternative to a greater suspension of nuclear tests, the alternative to strengthening the United Nations and thereby disarming the whole world, may well be a civilization plunged into the abyss of annihilation, and our earthly habitat would be transformed into an inferno that even the mind of Dante could not imagine.

    Let me close by saying that we have difficult days ahead in the struggle for justice and peace, but I will not yield to a politic of despair.

    I’m going to maintain hope as we come to Washington in this campaign.

    The cards are stacked against us. This time we will really confront a Goliath.
    -----------------------------------

    In fact the cards were stacked against MLK,Democratic Socialist

    Last edited by Ludicus; February 21, 2020 at 05:01 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  11. #1631
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    I’m fine with universal healthcare. In terms of revamping the US system, I would prefer a public option or an NHS. M4A is an untested, understudied, sudden and drastic shift that exists as a concept primarily for ideological and political reasons, not because it is optimal from a policy standpoint vs any possible alternatives. Nevertheless, if M4A were the only point of contention, I would still vote for Sanders over Trump without question. It isn’t.

  12. #1632
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I’m fine with universal healthcare. In terms of revamping the US system, I would prefer a public option or an NHS.
    Good to hear
    Sanders is right: "Insurance and pharmaceutical companies don't want you to know this. The truth is that Medicare for All will save lives and billions of dollars. Now is the time to end their greed and make healthcare a right"Financing Medicare for All - Senator Bernie Sanders
    Excerpt,
    ....In other words, every major industrialized nation on earth has made healthcare a right, provideduniversal coverage to all, and achieved far better health outcomes in terms of life expectancy andinfant mortality rates – all while spending far less per capita than we do. Please do not tell us that 5the United States of America, the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, cannot do thesame.

    ...there needs to be vigorous debate as to the best way to finance our Medicare for All legislation.Unlike the Republican leadership in Congress which held no hearings on their disastrous bill which would have thrown 32 million people off of health insurance, we will continue to get the best ideas from economists, doctors, nurses, and ordinary Americans to guarantee health care as a fundamental right.
    ---
    "since moving to America, I don't think I've met anyone who doesn't have at least one insurance industry horror story"
    John Oliver slams "Medicare for All" critics in powerful monologue,




    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    if M4A were the only point of contention...It isn’t.
    This concern is unfounded.Sanders wants to build a better America, he doesn't want to put an end to American Power. He doesn't see/consider himself as a dictator: "Allow Congress to reassert its Constitutional role in warmaking, so that no president can wage unauthorized and unconstitutional interventions overseas"
    Let's not dramatize this.

    Now, have a good laugh,



    The next episode of "Our Cartoon President" Sunday at 8:30 p.m. on Showtime.
    Last edited by Ludicus; February 21, 2020 at 06:16 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  13. #1633

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    This concern is unfounded.Sanders wants to build a better America, he doesn't want to put an end to American Power. He doesn't see/consider himself as a dictator: "Allow Congress to reassert its Constitutional role in warmaking, so that no president can wage unauthorized and unconstitutional interventions overseas"
    Let's not dramatize this.
    Sure. Let's not dramatize this. Presidential power is literally 80 years of Congress signing their own Constitutional power over to the President bit by bit and piece by piece. How do you think we were able to wage economic war on China without the say so of Congress when tariffs are literally a congressional power? This all literally starts with the Reciprocal Tariff Act and goes downhill from there. But Bernie's not going to be able to hand these powers back unless Congress first wants to pass a law to take those powers back. Congress these days more wants to just get on a podium and rant. Not do their god damn job.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  14. #1634
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    How to respond to Russian election interference when you’re not a shamelessly corrupt piece of :

    Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., excoriated Russia on Friday after being briefed that the Kremlin is attempting to help his presidential campaign as part of an effort to interfere with the Democratic primary and the 2020 election.

    "The intelligence community has been very clear about it — whether Trump recognizes it not, or acknowledges it or not, they did interfere in 2016," Sanders told reporters. "The intelligence community is telling us they are interfering in this campaign right now in 2020. What I say to Mr. Putin: If elected president, trust me, you will not be interfering in American elections."

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/pol...ntial-n1140741
    One must surely wonder why the enemies of the United States do not want moderate Democrats to be president. It’s certainly one hell of an endorsement. Should be an easy win in a sane world. Campaign slogan: “Putin wants me to lose.” Landslide victory.

  15. #1635

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    How to respond to Russian election interference when you’re not a shamelessly corrupt piece of :


    One must surely wonder why the enemies of the United States do not want moderate Democrats to be president. It’s certainly one hell of an endorsement. Should be an easy win in a sane world. Campaign slogan: “Putin wants me to lose.” Landslide victory.
    It's funny, but honestly Putin does not care who wins, so long as it keeps the country divided. The bad thing is, Sanders is probably the one candidate who can unite it. On a more serious note, the current acting Director of National Intelligence is now Richard Grenell. Richard Grenell is the former Ambassador to Germany. He is also, reportedly, a Trump sycophant and has little experience in this vital field of national security. In my opinion, the Trump Administration seeks to strengthen its control over the executive branch, especially a department that has been so critical and damaging to the President. This is deeply concerning, especially since the President's interests have repeatedly come into conflict with the interests of the country. If we give Trump another term, he will further weaponize the executive branch to fuel his political ambitions.

  16. #1636
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    It's funny, but honestly Putin does not care who wins, so long as it keeps the country divided.
    Agreed. The sad irony is that most of the establishment voices insisting on putting Russia front and centre of the agenda (again and again) are inadvertently amplifying the Kremlin's divide and conquer strategy. If they can't win on policy or personality, they're going to dance to Putin's tune by smearing everyone they disagree with as being a traitor, a Russian asset or foreign agent.

    The bad thing is, Sanders is probably the one candidate who can unite it.
    Unless Sanders is able to get corporate liberal media on his side (unlikely) he'll struggle to unite anything. The powerful networks are deeply opposed to his platform to the point where I think they'd prefer a 2d. Trump term, if only for the ratings.

    On a more serious note, the current acting Director of National Intelligence is now Richard Grenell. Richard Grenell is the former Ambassador to Germany. He is also, reportedly, a Trump sycophant and has little experience in this vital field of national security. In my opinion, the Trump Administration seeks to strengthen its control over the executive branch, especially a department that has been so critical and damaging to the President. This is deeply concerning, especially since the President's interests have repeatedly come into conflict with the interests of the country. If we give Trump another term, he will further weaponize the executive branch to fuel his political ambitions.
    If made president, Sanders is going to run into the same trouble as Trump: an established deep state which will seek to undermine his policy objectives (particularly on national security) at every turn. Though why you're acting as if it's somehow wrong for a president to mobilise the WH to forward his political objectives is beyond me. US presidents aren't designed to be powerless figureheads who do as they're told by entrenched, entitled bureaucrats.
    Last edited by Cope; February 21, 2020 at 11:05 PM.

  17. #1637

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    If made president, Sanders is going to run into the same trouble as Trump: an established deep state which will seek to undermine his policy objectives (particularly on national security) at every turn. Though why you're acting as if it's somehow wrong for a president to mobilise the WH to forward his political objectives is beyond me. US presidents aren't designed to be powerless figureheads who do as they're told by entrenched, entitled bureaucrats.
    It will be interesting to contrast Sanders' presidency to Trump's, that's fore sure. It is wrong for the President to use the executive branch as his own personal toy. The President is there to act in the interests of the country, not his own ambitions. There is nothing wrong with replacing a DNI. There is something deeply wrong when the man being appointed is loyal to the President rather than the country. This is especially obvious when the man is being accused of having little experience in the area he's being put in charge of. Though to your point in principle, no, there is nothing wrong with a President trying to mobilize his office to fulfill his objectives. The issue here is Trump.

    Not to say that Trump hasn't done anything wrong. The blatant disregard for procedure, ethics, and common sense in the Roger Stone matter is an obvious example.

  18. #1638
    Cope's Avatar Have you no decency?
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    It will be interesting to contrast Sanders' presidency to Trump's, that's fore sure. It is wrong for the President to use the executive branch as his own personal toy. The President is there to act in the interests of the country, not his own ambitions.There is nothing wrong with replacing a DNI. There is something deeply wrong when the man being appointed is loyal to the President rather than the country.
    Your argument is predicated on a false binary which juxtaposes the president's concerns against the national interest.

    This is especially obvious when the man is being accused of having little experience in the area he's being put in charge of. Though to your point in principle, no, there is nothing wrong with a President trying to mobilize his office to fulfill his objectives. The issue here is Trump.
    Given the state of US foreign policy (and the role the intel. community has played in it) over the past 20 years, I'd say that the problem wasn't Trump at all.

    Not to say that Trump hasn't done anything wrong. The blatant disregard for procedure, ethics, and common sense in the Roger Stone matter is an obvious example.
    I can't take liberals seriously on this. Not after they lauded Obama for involving himself in the Trayvon Martin case which triggered spiralling race relations in the US.
    Last edited by Cope; February 22, 2020 at 01:36 AM.

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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Your argument is predicated on a false binary which juxtaposes the president's concerns against the national interest.
    I'm not. The interests of the nation are not the interests of Donald Trump the individual.

    Given the state of US foreign policy (and the roll the intel. community has played in it) over the past 20 years, I'd say that the problem wasn't Trump at all.
    This implies that Donald Trump's foreign policy has outperformed his predecessors. This is wishful thinking.

    I can't take liberals seriously on this. Not after they lauded Obama for involving himself in the Trayvon Martin case which triggered spiralling race relations in the US.
    I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Using the DoJ as a blunt tool to further the President's personal interests is egregious. Trump has been on a rampage ever since his acquittal.

  20. #1640
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Mountain View Post
    I'm not. The interests of the nation are not the interests of Donald Trump the individual.
    There is a crossover between the "interests of Donald Trump the individual" (ie. appointing people he can trust who're committed to his program) and the interests of the nation. The false binary is in assuming that Trump appointing "loyalists" (which is standard political practice around the world) necessarily contrasts with national security.

    This implies that Donald Trump's foreign policy has outperformed his predecessors. This is wishful thinking.
    No, it implies that the serious failures that the US has had with foreign and intel. policy are largely a consequence of deep state actors who've lead the public up the proverbial garden path on the a variety of issues ranging from Saddam's alleged WMD's to the US's mission in Afghanistan to the NSA's domestic spying campaign.

    I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Using the DoJ as a blunt tool to further the President's personal interests is egregious. Trump has been on a rampage ever since his acquittal.
    This is for another thread. I don't want to get into the way federal prosecutors abused their role for political purposes by demanding an excessive sentence in the Stone case.

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