View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

Voters
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  • Bernie Sanders.

    19 48.72%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 12.82%
  • Neither.

    15 38.46%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #941
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Oh come on! It's not baseless. It's based on his words and actions and extrapolating from his states beliefs. Whether you find it worthless or not, is up to you. But it is not baseless.
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  2. #942

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    The off-election just FLIPPED the Virginia Senate!

    https://wtop.com/local-politics-elec...-to-the-polls/

    This state has been undeniably locally red for all it has been federally purple for the past 50 years. Look man. All I gotta say. Gerrymander all you want. But you elect someone too damn extreme, and red's gonna vote blue. We see this now this year. Just in time for census. Facts are stubborn things.
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  3. #943

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Meh, I'll wait until after Dem primaries, when fringe far-left promises will come back to haunt whoever gets the nomination. Good luck with promises of free healthcare to illegal aliens and gun confiscations in general elections.

  4. #944

    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Oh come on! It's not baseless. It's based on his words and actions and extrapolating from his states beliefs. Whether you find it worthless or not, is up to you. But it is not baseless.
    You are literally making stuff up. You're flaming your own thread. It's this kind of mentality that degenerates the political environment.
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  5. #945
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    In fact, Bernie's socio-economical solutions are more systemic, more far reaching. But both are good candidates, and this is a moment the left has been waiting for a long time. There is an ideological divide within the Democratic Party, and that's good news for democracy.
    Nancy Pelosi declares "I'm not a big fan of Medicare for All". And Biden accuses Warren of having "elitist policy view"... really, Biden?

    Elizabeth Warren,
    "The suggestion that we have become a country where those living in poverty fight each other for a handful of crumbs tossed off the tables of the very wealthy is fundamentally wrong. This is about our values, and our values tell us that we don't build a future by first deciding who among our most vulnerable will be left to starve".

    Bernie Sanders,
    "We say to the private health insurance companies: whether you like it or not, the United States will join every other major country on earth and guarantee healthcare to all people as a right"

    Ocasio-Cortez,
    "Medicare for All is the best healthcare plan for working and middle class Americans... corporate choice plans virtually guarantee profits for insurers, not healthcare for Americans".
    ------
    ------
    Love Mountain, in fact America is the only large rich country without universal health coverage provision. Almost 70 years ago, these words were adopted in the Constitution of the World Health Care organization
    "The enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health is one of the fundamental rights of every human being without distinction of race, religion, political belief, economic or social condition”.




    Bernie Sanders is right when says that Homelessness a 'Symptom of Greed' by the Rich, Not a Crime by the Poor

    "...the greatest shortage of affordable housing for the lowest income earners, while the wealthiest have it all".

    On a side note, in this small country, in numerical terms, between 2015 and the end of 2017, there was a 50% reduction in the number of homeless people actually sleeping on the street. The President keeps pressing the Government to put an end to homelessness. Portugal should end homelessness by 2023

    Every single year, this man spends some nights with homeless people.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    And he rightly says "no one is happy or could be happy pretending there is no poverty around them".
    ----
    To conclude- I wish both of them (Sanders/Warren) the best luck in the upcoming Presidential election.
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 07, 2019 at 01:12 PM. Reason: typo
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  6. #946
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    The ideological divide could end up dooming the Democrats if they don't learn to unify.

  7. #947
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Oh come on! It's not baseless. It's based on his words and actions and extrapolating from his states beliefs. Whether you find it worthless or not, is up to you. But it is not baseless.
    The OED definition of "baseless" is :

    Not having an underlying basis or foundation, groundless; unjustifiable.
    ...and you posted...
    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    No source.
    So your accusation is baseless.

    Sanders is a social welfare advocate. So was Bismarck, he wasn't a socialist either.

    Sanders may be to the Left of US politics but that demographic is crowded into a fairly narrow strip of right wing capitalism. Stepping out of the Wall Street/Billionaire minion club doesn't make him Karl Marx.
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  8. #948
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Well, Wall Street isn't happy, Mike Bloomberg signals he would run if Biden struggles against Warren

    Oh dear.
    Edit, let's face the facts.Biden is a weak candidate. Biden claims he doesn't want Obama's endorsement. Reality check: Obama doesn't want to endorse Biden.
    Obama Repeatedly Tried to Get Biden Not to Run for President | GQ
    Per the Times:
    The two men spoke at least a half dozen times before Mr. Biden decided to run, and Mr. Obama took pains to cast his doubts about the campaign in personal terms."You don’t have to do this, Joe, you really don’t," Mr. Obama told Mr. Biden earlier this year"
    Michelle Obama said "Barack and I are going to support whoever wins the primary". Obviously...

    New Joe Biden Campaign Ad Features a Heavy Does of Obama ...

    With his lead in the polls shrinking, the former vice president is summoning the spirit of his old boss. We should step back and say something we don’t often say enough as a party or as a nation: Barack Obama is an extraordinary man,” Biden says.
    Ah, "we don't often say enough"....OK. Biden is doing the best he can, repeating ad nausea "Obama is an extraordinary man".
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 07, 2019 at 03:01 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  9. #949
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You are literally making stuff up. You're flaming your own thread. It's this kind of mentality that degenerates the political environment.
    But I am not making stuff up. I said where I base my accusations, what is the "underlying basis and Foundation" of my opinion that Sanders is a commy: His support for the Sandinistas and other communist regimes, his expressed words in the 80s and things he advocates as correct. When someone in USA says "I believe the factories can be owned by the employees", vilifies greed etc etc it is not baseless to assume they are frankly against private property.

    My grandfather (communist, in the actual communist party of Greece and being hunted as a communist from the 40s till the late 70s by the rightwing state) was saying and supporting exactly the same things as Sanders. My sister's parents in law (communists, in the actual communist party of Greece) are saying exactly the same things as Sanders and actually don't even go as far as to suggest factories owned by the workers, they just think that the state can and actually should own the factories etc and the workers should choose their own bosses or at the very least, through their participation in elections to control who would be in charge of choosing their boss.

    And they tell me that re-education camps and forced movements of population is a thing of the past and that the modern communists would not do that.


    You may disagree with the basis of my opinion since it's based on what I have heard him saying and what I have heard communists saying, but it is not baseless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The OED definition of "baseless" is :


    ...and you posted...

    So your accusation is baseless.
    That I have no source doesn't mean I don't have any foundation for my argument. It means the foundation and basis of my argument are based on my personal observations and opinions.

    Sanders is a communist but he knows that other people are not communists so she fights for social welfare at least. If you sit with Sanders and ask him "Do you personally think and believe it would be better if the state owned the means of production? If the unions had the power to install the bosses in the factories? If the workers and the whole community were seeing the fruit of their labor instead of the bosses and owners taking the lion's share?" I am sure he would say "yes, I believe that".
    And that + social welfare + support for high taxes + support for centralized economy makes him a communist.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  10. #950

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    The ideological divide could end up dooming the Democrats if they don't learn to unify.
    They're only flipping districts that are traditionally Republican right now. Yea...there's a BIGGGG ideological divide here right now. I just don't think it's the Dems...
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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  11. #951

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    And how is it a problem? Just like Republicans, there are different people among Democrat supporters, many of which oppose endless wars that majority of candidates tend to support.

    She could give voice to people concerned with war crimes committed by the previous 2 administration and overall aggressive foreign policies. At the end of the day, being opposed to endless wars would make Trump a lesser evil compared to someone like Biden.
    Tulsi Gabbard's anti-war stance could help her stand out from the crowd of Democrats without making her seem to radical. And being the only major candidate that I can see that actually has war experience, she knows what she is talking about.

    Judging from my conservative friends, who have called Warren a similar to Hillary, but without the charm, I think Gabbard's might do well against Trump, better than Hillary. Her progressive stance on issues is a given, no candidate will stand a chance of getting the Democratic nomination if they aren't for gun control, and the like. That is the reality. Still, gun control advocacy from her, with her military experience, I think would be more acceptable than from someone like Warren.

    There are a number of Republicans who were not thrilled about Trump's candidacy, and Trump won more as a vote against Hillary than a vote for Trump. I am not sure that many of them aren't still rather oppose to Trump, but since Trump is currently the President and thus de facto head of the party by the fact, they are keeping criticism to themselves. If they were given a more acceptable choice than Warren or Sanders would some of them jump ship? I don't know.

    Also a lot of voters voted for Trump because he was different from the traditional politician from both parties. Gabbard's relatively obscurity could work in her favor, since she won't carry a lot of political baggage that someone like Warren has. If she is smart, she could use that in her favor, portraying herself as someone outside the traditional Washington scene that many Americans hate. Although, realistically, I don't see Gabbard having any reall chance at the nomination, she doesn't have the name recognition to attract the money that US politics requires these days. '

    Finally, being a practicing Hindu could work against her, but I am not sure if these days it really matters that much. Being a Catholic did not stop Kennedy from being elected, among the Democrats it really won't hurt her, but among the independent voters she will need in an election, I don't know. Probably among the Evangelical Christians her religion could be a factor, but since these are pretty much locked into the Republican party these days, and only a minority, that really isn't a factor, since any Democrat is unlikely to get their votes anyways.

  12. #952

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Well, Wall Street isn't happy, Mike Bloomberg signals he would run if Biden struggles against Warren

    Oh dear.
    Edit, let's face the facts.Biden is a weak candidate. Biden claims he doesn't want Obama's endorsement. Reality check: Obama doesn't want to endorse Biden.
    Obama Repeatedly Tried to Get Biden Not to Run for President | GQ
    Per the Times:
    Obama could get away with being to the Left of center, he was likable and well spoken, but other Democrats would struggle I think if they ran on the same platform.

    Being against Wall Street is not necessarily a bad thing, at least among the voters. Although the Left and much of the media tries to portray Trump as being a stooge of Wall Street, Trump is actually going against the wished of Walls Street in a lot of cases, which is what the people who elected him want. Trump's trade conflict with China is completely against the wishes of Wall Street, and even Warren I doubt would have the real courage to go against Wall Street in those areas, despite all the talk. Trump won "Rust Belt" states like Michigan because the Democrats, including Hillary, ignored their plight for all the Democrat talk.

    Warren might talk against Wall Street, but it it will be only Republican Wall Street she will really move against, and as Michael Bloomberg shows, there are a lot of Democrats in Wall Street, and the Democrats will someone find exceptions for them. It is Trump, for all his criticism, who is flatly going against the interest of Wall Street. It is Wall Street which is universally opposed to Trump getting tough with China. There has been a huge exodus of manufacturing jobs from the US, and only Trump has taken any action against that, Democrats are all talk when it comes to that, which is why Hillary lost the Rust Belt state. Truth is, both parties, Democrats and Republicans, are very supportive of the policies and agenda of Wall Street. When it came to bailing out the banks during the Housing Bubble collapse, Democrats were every bit as supportive in bailing out the banks and financial institutes responsible for the mess as their Republican counterparts.

    (I am not saying that Trump actions were the right ones, but he at least acknowledge an issue Wall Street that doesn't care about, and Democrats only paid lip service to. Wall Street has made it clear that US manufacturing could go to zero as far as they are concerned, and Democrats have paid only lip service to the decline, same for Republicans.)

  13. #953
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    But I am not making stuff up. I said where I base my accusations, what is the "underlying basis and Foundation" of my opinion that Sanders is a commy: His support for the Sandinistas and other communist regimes, his expressed words in the 80s and things he advocates as correct. When someone in USA says "I believe the factories can be owned by the employees", vilifies greed etc etc it is not baseless to assume they are frankly against private property.

    My grandfather (communist, in the actual communist party of Greece and being hunted as a communist from the 40s till the late 70s by the rightwing state) was saying and supporting exactly the same things as Sanders. My sister's parents in law (communists, in the actual communist party of Greece) are saying exactly the same things as Sanders and actually don't even go as far as to suggest factories owned by the workers, they just think that the state can and actually should own the factories etc and the workers should choose their own bosses or at the very least, through their participation in elections to control who would be in charge of choosing their boss.

    And they tell me that re-education camps and forced movements of population is a thing of the past and that the modern communists would not do that.


    You may disagree with the basis of my opinion since it's based on what I have heard him saying and what I have heard communists saying, but it is not baseless.



    That I have no source doesn't mean I don't have any foundation for my argument. It means the foundation and basis of my argument are based on my personal observations and opinions.

    Sanders is a communist but he knows that other people are not communists so she fights for social welfare at least. If you sit with Sanders and ask him "Do you personally think and believe it would be better if the state owned the means of production? If the unions had the power to install the bosses in the factories? If the workers and the whole community were seeing the fruit of their labor instead of the bosses and owners taking the lion's share?" I am sure he would say "yes, I believe that".
    And that + social welfare + support for high taxes + support for centralized economy makes him a communist.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politi...Bernie_Sanders apologies for citing wiki but this page cites actual sources.

    Your opinions are a no foundation from an argument given you think social welfare is a defining attribute of Communism. Its not.

    Sander's own woolly definitions get you part of the way, he insists on calling himself a "Democratic Socialist" but the actual socialists disown him.

    Sanders a social democrat, and one who specifically cites Nordic models of Social democracy as his inspiration.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  14. #954

    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    But I am not making stuff up. I said where I base my accusations, what is the "underlying basis and Foundation" of my opinion that Sanders is a commy: His support for the Sandinistas and other communist regimes, his expressed words in the 80s and things he advocates as correct. When someone in USA says "I believe the factories can be owned by the employees", vilifies greed etc etc it is not baseless to assume they are frankly against private property.
    My grandfather (communist, in the actual communist party of Greece and being hunted as a communist from the 40s till the late 70s by the rightwing state) was saying and supporting exactly the same things as Sanders. My sister's parents in law (communists, in the actual communist party of Greece) are saying exactly the same things as Sanders and actually don't even go as far as to suggest factories owned by the workers, they just think that the state can and actually should own the factories etc and the workers should choose their own bosses or at the very least, through their participation in elections to control who would be in charge of choosing their boss.
    And they tell me that re-education camps and forced movements of population is a thing of the past and that the modern communists would not do that.
    You may disagree with the basis of my opinion since it's based on what I have heard him saying and what I have heard communists saying, but it is not baseless.
    Sigh... There is absolutely no base for your position. Your opinion on what he thinks is not a base. You are simply making it up that Sanders wants to transfer any and all property from private hands to the state. There is absolutely no base for that. As Cyclops said, Sanders is a democratic socialist. It's the norm in Europe for many places. Nobody calls those people communists.
    The Armenian Issue

  15. #955
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    They're only flipping districts that are traditionally Republican right now. Yea...there's a BIGGGG ideological divide here right now. I just don't think it's the Dems...
    Thats cool but there's obviously a divide between the policies of more Moderate Democrats and the Progressives. I mean AOC is going to fund progressive candidates against moderate democrats in safe Dem districts. No ideological divide right?

  16. #956
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Warren might talk against Wall Street, but it it will beonly Republican Wall Street she will really move against
    I don't think so. Billionaires are billionaires.Is Bill Gates a democrat or Republican? the American people has to choose between a Republican America and a Wall Street Kingdom.

    Edit,
    You got to see this. Wall Street "democratic" donors may back Trump if Warren is nominated
    "... but she’s going to hurt me, so I’m going to help President Trump"
    They don't really care about parties.

    ----
    Warren, a few hours ago,
    Welcome to the race, @MikeBloomberg! If you're looking for policy plans that will make a huge difference for working people and which are very popular, start here:
    Some billionaires seem confused about how much they would pay under Elizabeth's Ultra-Millionaire Tax. Don't worry, now we have a calculator for that too.
    A Calculator For The Billionaires | Elizabeth Warren

    Follow the link
    Last edited by Ludicus; November 08, 2019 at 10:08 AM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  17. #957

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Thats cool but there's obviously a divide between the policies of more Moderate Democrats and the Progressives. I mean AOC is going to fund progressive candidates against moderate democrats in safe Dem districts. No ideological divide right?
    And she knows enough to know she can’t primary any Democrat in the cities of Kentucky or anybody outside the metropolitan areas of Illinois, Indiana, or Ohio. Her blunt force method of full on PROGRESSIVE doesn’t work everywhere and she at least knows that. If she’s still around in ten years and learns the country and the party is bigger than just her sub-party making noise maybe I’ll take her seriously as an ideologue. Until then, the Republican Party is losing the suburbs. Who are they losing to? The Democrats.
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  18. #958
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    According to a political editor to Politico Magazine, AOC's Sanders endorsement won't change 2020, but it might change the Democratic Party.He says" Here’s what it signals: Even if Bernie won’t be with us forever, his socialist movement will be".Anyway, AOC made clear that her support of Sanders was not a condemnation of Warren.

    But there is a deep ideological divide between Biden and the Warren/Sanders tandem. Eduction, healthcare, taxes, housing plans. Biden doesn't want to change anything.Zero.He simply wants to be President.
    ---

    The plutocrats are getting very worried and angry - The Washington Post
    Bill Gates and the billionaires vs. Elizabeth Warren, explained - Vox

    Sanders,
    You can tell who's doing a good job by the enemies they make. Jamie Dimon's bank was fined $13 billion for mortgage fraud. We welcome his hatred.
    FDR said "Judge me by the enemies I have made." We agree, and we are proud to say that @LloydBlankfein, the former CEO of Goldman Sachs, is not supporting our campaign.
    ----
    Biden to rich donors: "nothing will fundamentally change".
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  19. #959
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/news...ent/vi-BBWvQOT

    Right. Warren actually said she's open to stop deportation of illegal immigrants in response to a question about a drug dealer illegal immigrant being deported.

    When Trump's enduring popularity comes mostly from "At least, he's tough on immigration" Warren's words really won't help the Democrats win 2020. Better get ready for 4 more years of embarrassing tweets.
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  20. #960
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    Default Re: The successes of President Donald Trump and their under-reporting by the media (please, no flaming)

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Sigh... There is absolutely no base for your position. Your opinion on what he thinks is not a base. You are simply making it up that Sanders wants to transfer any and all property from private hands to the state. There is absolutely no base for that. As Cyclops said, Sanders is a democratic socialist. It's the norm in Europe for many places. Nobody calls those people communists.
    My opinion on what he thinks is a base.

    My opinion that he would prefer to transfer property to the state not that he would try it is based on things I mentioned already, which form a basis. That you disagree with my opinion because you think my base is not solid, doesn't make my opinion necessarily wrong.

    Sanders is a "tolerant of other voices and opinions" communist. Not the USSR communism, I really don't think he would want a single-party rule and the authoritarian measures of such regimes, but communist in the sense of "laborers are right, bosses are wrong so all power to the Unions" and "centralize the economy" and "Means of production should go to the state" and "The community is bigger than the individual" etc etc.

    We don't call the people in your example communists because they are to the right of Sanders as the want the state to look after the individual. Leftwings for sure, but to the right of Sanders that is far left.
    What I mean here is that Sanders wants the welfare that those countries provide through large taxes to their people. But he is also against free market and pro central-controlled and government-regulated economy. Those countries are far more "Free" and capitalistic economies than Sanders would prefer.
    Last edited by alhoon; November 09, 2019 at 11:09 AM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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