View Poll Results: Who's your favourite candidate for the 2020 Democratic Primaries?

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  • Bernie Sanders.

    19 48.72%
  • Joe Biden.

    5 12.82%
  • Neither.

    15 38.46%
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Thread: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

  1. #2241

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post


    so your argument is that we have to be producing military equipment at ww2 levels to be considered a war time economy? even though we spend more on military spending than the next 4 countries combined and are the biggest seller of arms in the world? ok
    I'm saying our general production levels haven't changed at all but for 1, maybe 2 corporations that actually got pushed around by the Defense Production Act. Everybody with a DoD contract is still working the DoD contract. So your point about military equipment is...moot. Anybody making healthcare equipment that wasn't before CV-19 came about is doing so out of the goodness of their own heart or they saw an opportunity. If they have a DoD contract they are still working the DoD contract. So, you can be sure, the DoD is still getting their F-35s. So, for wartime production, and what America can do for wartime production...it certainly isn't being dedicated to healthcare equipment.

    Of course, we fired a Navy Captain who raised the alarm of CV-19 on our ships. Which CV-19 has occurred on at lease 4 aircraft carriers and who knows how many other ships.

    So, if you want to define "wartime production", while we want to maintain our military, of course. It probably isn't about our military at the moment. It's about our healthcare equipment. Get. Your. Crap. Straight.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  2. #2242

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    1. America is already in a permanent crisis mode called the war time economy that has existed since ww2
    The fact that you didn't bother to expand on this point suggests to me that you have no supporting argument. The war economy of the Second World War was not continued indefinitely after 1945 (hence the dramatic drop in debt as % of GDP). If your point is that the US is spending comparable levels on its military now as it was then, you're simply wrong; as a % of GDP, the gov't was spending ~15x more in 1944-45 on the military as it is today. More importantly, military spending really has very little to with capitalism (as is evidenced by the exorbitant military spending of other non capitalism societies ie. the USSR).

    2. Marx argues the same thing. A socialist economy is only possible with a highly industrialized advanced capitalist state like America. For some reason its always been done in a semi-feudal backwater country, which is probably in some ways a refutation of his prescription but not his diagnosis.
    His central prophecy that the hierarchical nature of the human species (a product of millions of years of psychological evolution) would somehow be upended as a consequence of industrialization was/is ludicrous. In practice, the attempts by Lenin and others to force people to place class identity above all other considerations (including their own self-interests) necessitated the formation of dictatorial governments to whip the population into compliance. This created conditions which were diametrically opposed to the egalitarian societies that communism promised. To this extent, Marxism has all the trappings of a religious fantasy a la the evangelical desire for the restoration of a Davidic Israel; the promised utopia invariably rapidly deteriorates into a nightmare.

    A system that is built on productivity always increasing is doomed to fail in the long run, it was only a matter of time. A system built on investor confidence and the worship of a line is also doomed to fail and it does frequently. What matters is that things are getting to the consumer and that the consumer has money to purchase it, which gets exponentially harder when you have a debt based economy where wages are stagnate but those at the top have doubled their wealth in that same time. Coronavirus was just the catalyst of this current economic crisis, it was going to crash eventually like it does every 10 years.
    No one has argued in favour of corporatism. Even so, criticizing crony capitalism and neoliberal economics does not justify a of a state takeover of the economy (ie. spending 16 tn on a "Green New Deal" masterminded by the economically illiterate AOC). After all, if you're going to criticize "debt based economies" then it is hypocritical to argue that the state should just borrow itself into oblivion.

    In any case, irrespective of their shortcomings, the the market economies of the West have created the most prosperous societies in human history; right now the challenge is to get gov'ts to direct the economy, where possible, toward the national interest rather than the interests of lobbyists and insider corporations.

    Also its laughable to suggest that the reason healthcare is so expensive in the U.S. is because of muh research and pioneers.
    I didn't say that was why it was so expensive: I said that nationalized health systems in Europe and elsewhere tend to rely on private innovations (usually from the US) to treat their patients. One of the reasons that drugs tend to be cheaper in the UK, France and Germany than they are in the US is because gov'ts have the power to negotiate good deals with big pharma.

    my prediction is that coronavirus exposed a lot more weaknesses in the economy than Health care. I think there will be a massive restructuring after this over, which will probably mean many of those people are going to stay unemployed for a long time, if not permanently.
    That will depend on how long the crisis lasts and its medium to long term impact. Considering that the choice of president is between Biden and Trump, the probability that you'll see some sort of socialist revolution in the next five years or so is highly unlikely.
    Last edited by Cope; April 07, 2020 at 10:11 PM.



  3. #2243

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Really?

    You want to know the single best piece of "over-regulation" America's healthcare system could use? Put all insurance companies, healthcare companies, and hospitals on the same paperwork system.
    Or you can deal with the elephant in the room, which is inflated costs caused by government over-regulation.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    it is though. 48 states produce military equipment. The military is the biggest drain on discretionary spending. and 45 cents out of every tax dollar goes to defense.

    imagine if just half of that went to actually producing something relevant in the 21st century.
    You are definitely making a point here. But its not a "war time economy", but rather presence of military-industrial complex and powerful lobby representing its interests. I guess you'd need laws that would bar people who have stock in the industry from holding political office or positions in intelligence.
    Im sorry but whatever balkan country you are rooting for was a semi-feudal backwater in the 20th century even before the warsaw pact.
    Um, you do realize that Balkan nations, with exception of Albania for a short period of time, were not in Warsaw Pact, right?
    Czechoslovakia was Europe's industrial heartland. Poland was pretty advanced too. Imperial Russia itself prior to Great War was going through rapid industrialization, was first nation in the world to produce to produce heavy bombers and built Trans-Siberian railway, which was considered to be a technological marvel of its time. Pretty much every nation in Warsaw Pact was better off before communist rule. The whole mythology of them being oppressed feudal "prisons of the nations" came later in Soviet propaganda.
    Again, just pointing out the whole "it could only work in advanced countries" argument doesn't make sense, since socialism was forcefully implemented in many advanced countries, and all it resulted with was them no longer being advanced.

  4. #2244

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Or you can deal with the elephant in the room, which is inflated costs caused by government over-regulation.
    The irony of how much the same paperwork system would lower over-regulation...
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  5. #2245
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RedGuard View Post
    yeah instead the democratic party should just announce whatever candidate they pick and cancel the primaries from now to perpetuity so that we don't have to deal with democracy any more
    Noooooooope, they should just have the delegate count. The pledged delegates should be counted and for further rounds, they should send in their votes in a platform that is for delegates only.
    I.e. they should pick the candidate without fanfare. That's what I am saying.
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  6. #2246

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    To the surprise of few, Senator Bernie Sanders has suspended his campaign for the office of president of the United States today leaving the race to be contested by President Donald Trump and whomever former Vice-President Joe Biden nominates as his running mate.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52219756
    Last edited by skh1; April 08, 2020 at 10:40 AM.

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  7. #2247

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    No refunds: Bernie dropped out.

    Join the landslide.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    The irony of how much the same paperwork system would lower over-regulation...
    That won't prevent Big Pharma from charging several times more then drug's actual price. If healthcare costs were not artificially inflated by government regulating in favor of specific corporations, then pretty much anyone could afford health insurance.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; April 08, 2020 at 11:00 AM.

  8. #2248
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    well done democrats, you may now lick trumps boot for another 4 years.

  9. #2249
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    well done democrats, you may now lick trumps boot for another 4 years.
    Electing Bernie would lead to the same outcome. Though i think Biden could pull off a win.

  10. #2250

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    well done democrats, you may now lick trumps boot for another 4 years.


    What were you expecting?
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  11. #2251

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Young people's failure to come out to vote does not take any value from expecting the DNC to treat each candidate on equal terms.
    The Armenian Issue

  12. #2252

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    CONSPIRACY THEORISTS UNITE!!
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  13. #2253
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Young people's failure to come out to vote does not take any value from expecting the DNC to treat each candidate on equal terms.
    How the DNC treats its candidates has nothing to do with why Bernie did so horribly in various primaries.

  14. #2254
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post


    What were you expecting?
    yeah, shame young people can least afford to take the day off, because their generation is the most ed. and its oc young people faults the DNC has done everthing to sabotage the progressive canditate, making it clear from the start theyd rather have trump than someone who isnt a neo-liberal sellout. what an incentive to vote.

    and oc biden, a moderate conservative will win,thats why you had president HRC for the last four years.

    oh, wait, you didnt. i mustve slipped into the liberal alternate universe for a second.

    but im not an american, no skin of my back. enjoy the result of your collective lack of balls and ability to consider your own electoral history.

  15. #2255
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Was it the DNC who made Bernie unpopular with minority voters too?

  16. #2256

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HannibalExMachina View Post
    yeah, shame young people can least afford to take the day off, because their generation is the most ed.
    Don't get ahead of yourself. It doesn't take the entire day to vote. I'll just cut your post off there.

    It's not the younger generation's fault the older generation of Democrats are more moderate. But if they're not going to take 3 hours at most at 6am to vote and literally drag the party left when they can take 5 hours night after night after night for the rallies then I got nothing for you. What are you expecting exactly. It is literally against federal law to stop someone from voting. If they don't vote, they get nothing.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  17. #2257

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Electing Bernie would lead to the same outcome. Though i think Biden could pull off a win.

    In what universe? Biden is obviously unable to debate, every public event he is at turns into a PR disaster and it is painfully obvious that he is "no longer there". That and his creepy tendency to unsolicited physical contact with women and children.
    Democrat strategists, if they know what they are doing, already know this is a lost cause and probably think of 2024.

  18. #2258
    HannibalExMachina's Avatar Just a sausage
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    sure, sure. just take a few off (if you are lucky and the line isnt too long) and get fired for that. three hours to vote, is that including commute or just waiting in line? nevermind, its still making sure people cant vote, thats what we like to call voter suppression. and the virus, have we talked about the virus yet? thats going to be a banger, wait in line and get the rona.

    or vote at night instead of doing activism, ya know, when the polling stations are closed. brilliant!

    smart to cut off the rest, so its still young peoples fault. wouldnt want to hurt anyones feelings, just because they like to be collaborators, eh?

  19. #2259
    Vanoi's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    https://www.workplacefairness.org/vo...-time-off-work

    Many states give you time to vote. My state of South Carolina can't fire me if i take time to vote.

  20. #2260

    Default Re: USA Democratic party 2020 candidates and primaries thread

    Any employer that fires someone for voting would be legally and politically flayed. People who would go to vote for Creepy-Sleepy Joe are as susceptible to Pinko Pox as those that came to vote for Sanders, heck, given the general age difference between target demographics Sanders even had an advantage there. You'd make a point with delegates, but even with them not being a factor, Sanders would still have lost. Bernie was simply not popular enough, by every metric other then reddit upvotes.

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